New traxxas e-maxx
12-06-2007, 08:13 PM
#31
BS. I love how electric guys always slant the figures. I don't know of anyone who goes through a gallon of fuel in a race day. Here is how my very limited research looks:
For 1 year of racing, 2 races per month, nitro vs. electric, assuming 2 10 minute qualifiers and a 20 minute main, and you already have a roller.
Nitro: 1 gallon of gas? LOL, you must be kidding, or run your engine so rich it does like 5 mph and is on the verge of hydrolock. 1 quart of gas is sufficient for most engines for at least 2 race days. A gallon will last 8 race days. Cost - $25 gallon. Assuming you go through 2 glow plugs per gallon (which would be a lot) add $10. If you are running lots of practice laps, obviously add more fuel, but then also add more batteries as a lipo will need to cool (?) before being charged, and unless a lipo pack charges in a 1/2 hour or so, you will need extra packs.
$400 for an engine? This is not what most casual racers will buy. A mach 427, axial, trx 3.3, and several other engines are $150 new, and a piston/sleeve is $50. Add $75 for a decent pipe and header, $100 for a bump box even though not all nitro rc's need one, and figure $20 for a glow starter and $50 for a charger.
Total cost for the year (which would be around 24 races),is $75 fuel + $30 glow plugs + $150 engine + $75 pipe and header + $100 bump box + $20 glow ignitor + $50 charger = $500
Lipo: The figures I have seen is 250-300 charge cycles, and lots of conversions seem to use 2 lipos at a time. You will need 2 lipo packs minimum (1 for qualifier and 1 for main), 4 packs minimum if using 2 lipos at a time, at a cost of $150 per pack. $200 for a good charger (not sure if these are capable of balancing a lipo battery also, but I will assume they will), $30 for a lipo sack, $150 for the esc and $150 for the motor.
Total cost for electric: $300 or $600 if 2 at a time lipos + $200 charger + $30 lipo sack + $150 esc + $150 motor = $830 or $1130
Which is more expensive again?
From a different view: Lets look at normal wear items for both, batteries for brushless (how long before a brushless motor's performance starts to fall off, and is it rebuildable or is it time for a new motor?)and piston/sleeve, glow plugs and fuel for nitro. Assuming average life for both electric and nitro, a lipo is 300 charge cycles. If assuming a lipo gives approx 30 minutes of runtime, you will have 9000 minutes of runtime before needing to replace them.
If the average for a nitro is 10 minutes on 1 tank, the average for an 1/8 scale truggy is 150 cc tank, you would obviously need 900 tanks for the 9000 minutes of runtime that a lipo battery lifespan will yield, or approx. 135,000 cc of fuel, which is equal to 135 liters, or 35 gallons of fuel. The average to replace a glow plug, excluding break in, is 1 gallon. 35 gallons of fuel plus 36 glow plugs. Figure most nitro engines (average engines, we are not talking about top of the line, just like I was figuring average esc and brushless motor), or one of the engines listed above will last 8 gallons, you will need to replace the piston/sleeve 3 or 4 times, so figure $200. Total for the same 9000 minutes of runtime is $1255 for nitro as opposed to the $150 or $300 (2 lipos at a time) for electric.
Lipo looks less expensive. BUT when you factor in you will need multiple batteries to race or bash for a while, and the initial higher cost, it would be a while before you are at the break even point. This also does not figure in a esc overheating and becoming damaged, or if a brushless motor needs to be rebuilt or replaced.
So now totaling the overall cost for 9000 minutes of runtime assuming you will only have one battery so 30 minutes running at a time:
Nitro - $1255 fuel, piston/sleeve, glow plugs, $150 initial engine purchase, $75 pipe/header, $100 starter box, $20 glow ignitor, $50 charger = $1650
Electric: $150 or $300 (2 at a time) lipo, $150 esc, $150 motor, $200 charger, $30 lipo sack = $680 or $830
Electric is cheaper in the long run, but this is over 9000 minutes = 150 hours. If you run for 3 hours a week, figure this is over the course of a year. If you run an average of 1 hour every week, it is close to 3 years. Add more to electric for another battery, and most brushless conversions are running 2 lipos at a time. So if you plan on racing twice a month, with the bare minimum required, you would be around 18 months before you are saving money with the electric.
Let's face it, most people will upgrade well before that, and most electric guys will have many spare batteries on hand, so with current pricing, if you are buying everything new, electric performance on par with nitro IS more expensive.
For 1 year of racing, 2 races per month, nitro vs. electric, assuming 2 10 minute qualifiers and a 20 minute main, and you already have a roller.
Nitro: 1 gallon of gas? LOL, you must be kidding, or run your engine so rich it does like 5 mph and is on the verge of hydrolock. 1 quart of gas is sufficient for most engines for at least 2 race days. A gallon will last 8 race days. Cost - $25 gallon. Assuming you go through 2 glow plugs per gallon (which would be a lot) add $10. If you are running lots of practice laps, obviously add more fuel, but then also add more batteries as a lipo will need to cool (?) before being charged, and unless a lipo pack charges in a 1/2 hour or so, you will need extra packs.
$400 for an engine? This is not what most casual racers will buy. A mach 427, axial, trx 3.3, and several other engines are $150 new, and a piston/sleeve is $50. Add $75 for a decent pipe and header, $100 for a bump box even though not all nitro rc's need one, and figure $20 for a glow starter and $50 for a charger.
Total cost for the year (which would be around 24 races),is $75 fuel + $30 glow plugs + $150 engine + $75 pipe and header + $100 bump box + $20 glow ignitor + $50 charger = $500
Lipo: The figures I have seen is 250-300 charge cycles, and lots of conversions seem to use 2 lipos at a time. You will need 2 lipo packs minimum (1 for qualifier and 1 for main), 4 packs minimum if using 2 lipos at a time, at a cost of $150 per pack. $200 for a good charger (not sure if these are capable of balancing a lipo battery also, but I will assume they will), $30 for a lipo sack, $150 for the esc and $150 for the motor.
Total cost for electric: $300 or $600 if 2 at a time lipos + $200 charger + $30 lipo sack + $150 esc + $150 motor = $830 or $1130
Which is more expensive again?
From a different view: Lets look at normal wear items for both, batteries for brushless (how long before a brushless motor's performance starts to fall off, and is it rebuildable or is it time for a new motor?)and piston/sleeve, glow plugs and fuel for nitro. Assuming average life for both electric and nitro, a lipo is 300 charge cycles. If assuming a lipo gives approx 30 minutes of runtime, you will have 9000 minutes of runtime before needing to replace them.
If the average for a nitro is 10 minutes on 1 tank, the average for an 1/8 scale truggy is 150 cc tank, you would obviously need 900 tanks for the 9000 minutes of runtime that a lipo battery lifespan will yield, or approx. 135,000 cc of fuel, which is equal to 135 liters, or 35 gallons of fuel. The average to replace a glow plug, excluding break in, is 1 gallon. 35 gallons of fuel plus 36 glow plugs. Figure most nitro engines (average engines, we are not talking about top of the line, just like I was figuring average esc and brushless motor), or one of the engines listed above will last 8 gallons, you will need to replace the piston/sleeve 3 or 4 times, so figure $200. Total for the same 9000 minutes of runtime is $1255 for nitro as opposed to the $150 or $300 (2 lipos at a time) for electric.
Lipo looks less expensive. BUT when you factor in you will need multiple batteries to race or bash for a while, and the initial higher cost, it would be a while before you are at the break even point. This also does not figure in a esc overheating and becoming damaged, or if a brushless motor needs to be rebuilt or replaced.
So now totaling the overall cost for 9000 minutes of runtime assuming you will only have one battery so 30 minutes running at a time:
Nitro - $1255 fuel, piston/sleeve, glow plugs, $150 initial engine purchase, $75 pipe/header, $100 starter box, $20 glow ignitor, $50 charger = $1650
Electric: $150 or $300 (2 at a time) lipo, $150 esc, $150 motor, $200 charger, $30 lipo sack = $680 or $830
Electric is cheaper in the long run, but this is over 9000 minutes = 150 hours. If you run for 3 hours a week, figure this is over the course of a year. If you run an average of 1 hour every week, it is close to 3 years. Add more to electric for another battery, and most brushless conversions are running 2 lipos at a time. So if you plan on racing twice a month, with the bare minimum required, you would be around 18 months before you are saving money with the electric.
Let's face it, most people will upgrade well before that, and most electric guys will have many spare batteries on hand, so with current pricing, if you are buying everything new, electric performance on par with nitro IS more expensive.
Last edited by badaml; 12-06-2007 at 11:16 PM.
12-06-2007, 10:21 PM
#32
Tech Master
as for someone who has electric stuff I can say that, yeah- fuel cars/trucks are cool with the roar of the engine taching out but they cost bucks to maintain, but LiPo's aren't cheap either. Patiently waiting for my VXL Stampede for Christmas and am setting it up with 3s LiPo; obsessed with the need for speed! Currently i drive a Mini Cooper w/2s LiPo and it is truly a Nitro killer; more holeshot and higher top end. If I can keep it on the ground for 5 sec i can get 50+mph out of the thing. Maybe I'm just an electric kind of guy- nothing bad to say about gas cars/trucks cuz i think they're cool!
12-06-2007, 10:59 PM
#33
I've been running and racing a Mugen MBX5 buggy and truggy for the last 3 years. I just built a brushless MBX5R and sent it off to Stephen Bess at R/C Car to do a full review and head to head against a nitro MBX5R. I broke down a list of all the items you won't use anymore with the nitro car and the costs of the electric conversion are cheaper than building the car with a comparable nitro setup. Sure, you can buy a cheaper .21 nitro motor for a little less than $200, but if you go to the track 90% of the guys are running a $300+ motor. You'd be blown away how many guys are running a $500 motor in their 1/8th scale buggy. But even the best .28 modified nitro motor can't compare to the power these brushless/LiPo combos are putting out. Then when you figure in long term costs the brushless/LiPo electric car will be much cheaper. I'll have more than one LiPo, as will most racers, but you can get away with just one for starters. You can use a single pack for all your qualifiers, then throw it on the balance charger before the mains and use it again. You also don't need an expensive charger like the guys that race electric now with NiMh batteries. You can get a good charger with balancer for around $100. You'll need that charger if you run nitro as well since you have to charge your Rx pack and starter box batteries. It also doesn't take much to ruin a nitro motor in a split second. Add in the tuning factor and proper after run maintenance and most nitro guys are lucky to get a few gallons out of a motor. Eight gallons is FAR from the norm in the nitro class.
When it comes to speed, torque and jumping, my E-MBX5R will annihilate any nitro buggy out there. And as much as I like the sound, smell and realism of nitro, speed and peformance is what drives this hobby. It's speed & performance that have caused the 1/8th scale buggy & truggy classes to explode and kill the smaller 1/10th scale gas truck class. Once enough of these 1/8th brushless/LiPo conversions are out there and the Mfg's start really poducing better motors, ESC's and batteries for them, the R/C Community will flock to this new class once they witness the performance. Like it or not, electric is the future of R/C racing (like it once was in the past).
Best regards,
When it comes to speed, torque and jumping, my E-MBX5R will annihilate any nitro buggy out there. And as much as I like the sound, smell and realism of nitro, speed and peformance is what drives this hobby. It's speed & performance that have caused the 1/8th scale buggy & truggy classes to explode and kill the smaller 1/10th scale gas truck class. Once enough of these 1/8th brushless/LiPo conversions are out there and the Mfg's start really poducing better motors, ESC's and batteries for them, the R/C Community will flock to this new class once they witness the performance. Like it or not, electric is the future of R/C racing (like it once was in the past).
Best regards,
Last edited by TonysScrews; 12-06-2007 at 11:23 PM.
12-06-2007, 11:35 PM
#34
Well how about giving us a breakdown of the costs then? Also including how many batteries, and how often they will need to be replaced?
Ask anyone not already into the hobby to come to a race and see which one they like /enjoy more, electric or nitro? Because for the hobby to have a future, it needs to attract new people, and most people I have talked with and shown rc cars, the nitro vehicle always attracts more attention.
I am NOT debating the performance aspect, as electric ultimately is faster. But it is still my contention that electric is more expensive to get the same level of performance as nitro.
Also, most electrics that are more powerful than a nitro, are they just as driveable? That is one of the reasons for high cost nitro engines. A cheap .28 will out accelerate a ninja .21, but the ninja is much smoother, making it easier to put down the power on a track, as opposed to spinning out.
As for high dollar nitro engines, you will also have high dollar lipo packs and chargers, motors and esc's. So comparing top of the line nitro to electric, how much will the figures actually change in relation to one another.
Speed and performance is what drives racers, those two aspects alone do not drive the hobby. It is fun. Those aspects are part of that fun obviously, but what puts a grin on a face is what drives the hobby. If it was strictly speed and performance, traxxas would have been out of business a long time ago and all hobby shops would carry mugen and ninjas, nova rossi and x ray. I can't remember a time when that was the case lol.
Again, please post your detailed findings.
Ask anyone not already into the hobby to come to a race and see which one they like /enjoy more, electric or nitro? Because for the hobby to have a future, it needs to attract new people, and most people I have talked with and shown rc cars, the nitro vehicle always attracts more attention.
I am NOT debating the performance aspect, as electric ultimately is faster. But it is still my contention that electric is more expensive to get the same level of performance as nitro.
Also, most electrics that are more powerful than a nitro, are they just as driveable? That is one of the reasons for high cost nitro engines. A cheap .28 will out accelerate a ninja .21, but the ninja is much smoother, making it easier to put down the power on a track, as opposed to spinning out.
As for high dollar nitro engines, you will also have high dollar lipo packs and chargers, motors and esc's. So comparing top of the line nitro to electric, how much will the figures actually change in relation to one another.
Speed and performance is what drives racers, those two aspects alone do not drive the hobby. It is fun. Those aspects are part of that fun obviously, but what puts a grin on a face is what drives the hobby. If it was strictly speed and performance, traxxas would have been out of business a long time ago and all hobby shops would carry mugen and ninjas, nova rossi and x ray. I can't remember a time when that was the case lol.
Again, please post your detailed findings.
12-07-2007, 12:24 AM
#35
The e maxx was pretty much a pig on the track due to excess rear weight bias and not much that could be done about it. I noticed the revised e has moved the transmission and motors way further forward so maybe there's hope for it as a potential race platform. Even if the balance issue is resolved it still suffers from the same thing that killed the t as a racer and that's limited steering throw due to the shocks mounted on the rear of the lower arms. We did build a few with 4 shocks on the outside and the rear shock mounts trimmed off, but you still had the same problem when the arms were at full droop. Serious 8th scale electric race cars are still a year or so away so nitro is still safe for now, but once the major manufacturers get behind large scale electric racers and design a car around the power system rather than adapting the power to a nitro platform like it's being done now, nitro will be a thing of the past in 8th scale off road. The converted nitro cars being run today are already outdoing their nitro classmates and it can only get better with some serious design work behind a new platform.
12-07-2007, 07:37 PM
#37
That will work, thank you. Convince me lol. I really enjoy the sound and realism of nitro, less toy like. It would be nice to have both, I enjoyed taking my electric tc when I had it and running it at anytime, with no hassle, just the radio, car and an extra battery or 2.
12-08-2007, 04:52 AM
#38
Hey Mr. P, long time no type. Between outside stuff, health issues, and just general burnout I've been out of the loop for quite a while now.
I'm afraid trying to educate some of these nitro knotheads is going to be like it was when we were lightening up our MT's and everyone was telling us how wrong we were about that. I can't wait to see the write-up on your e mugen, the guy who got my LSP converted it to brushless and it's an animal compared to the nitro truggies he's been running it against. After racing against him most of last season, the serious local fast guys are building e truggies for next year.
To all the electric haters out there.
Having actually laid out the geeters and tracked what it costs to race both nitro and electric 10th scale before both died off and I was forced to race MT, 8th buggy, and (eventually) truggy to be able to get a decent race, my contention that electric costs less and performs better than nitro is based on several years of actual experience, so until you have something besides a preference for nitro to back your claims, trying to argue the point only proves how little you actually know about r/c racing. As far as that goes, you need not take my word for it, just keep racing nitro and the guys who are more interested in winning races than they are in how "cool" their car looks and sounds will just start beating you so bad you will be forced to convert if you want to keep up. In the end nitro versus electric is really all about what it's always been all about and that's winning races. You can continue to split hairs over cost because you prefer nitro, or you can be realistic about the whole thing and remain a contender by going with the flow. That's how I wound up going to nitro 8th scale and MT, I preferred electric but if I wanted to race with the fast guys I had to convert to nitro, which I did without any problem at all. Technology is once again driving a shift in what it's going to take to be a winner in r/c off road racing, you can either accept that change and go with it or get comfortable with being just another also ran. Simply stated, if you don't mind having your ass waxed every time you go racing, stick with nitro. If you want to be an actual contender get over yourself and convert to electric early. Get out front with this new technology and be a leader, it's what the winners will be doing.
The future of 8th scale off road is electric. The fact that one of the few guys I respect as a true innovator in this sport/hobby is behind it only proves I'm right.
I'm afraid trying to educate some of these nitro knotheads is going to be like it was when we were lightening up our MT's and everyone was telling us how wrong we were about that. I can't wait to see the write-up on your e mugen, the guy who got my LSP converted it to brushless and it's an animal compared to the nitro truggies he's been running it against. After racing against him most of last season, the serious local fast guys are building e truggies for next year.
To all the electric haters out there.
Having actually laid out the geeters and tracked what it costs to race both nitro and electric 10th scale before both died off and I was forced to race MT, 8th buggy, and (eventually) truggy to be able to get a decent race, my contention that electric costs less and performs better than nitro is based on several years of actual experience, so until you have something besides a preference for nitro to back your claims, trying to argue the point only proves how little you actually know about r/c racing. As far as that goes, you need not take my word for it, just keep racing nitro and the guys who are more interested in winning races than they are in how "cool" their car looks and sounds will just start beating you so bad you will be forced to convert if you want to keep up. In the end nitro versus electric is really all about what it's always been all about and that's winning races. You can continue to split hairs over cost because you prefer nitro, or you can be realistic about the whole thing and remain a contender by going with the flow. That's how I wound up going to nitro 8th scale and MT, I preferred electric but if I wanted to race with the fast guys I had to convert to nitro, which I did without any problem at all. Technology is once again driving a shift in what it's going to take to be a winner in r/c off road racing, you can either accept that change and go with it or get comfortable with being just another also ran. Simply stated, if you don't mind having your ass waxed every time you go racing, stick with nitro. If you want to be an actual contender get over yourself and convert to electric early. Get out front with this new technology and be a leader, it's what the winners will be doing.
The future of 8th scale off road is electric. The fact that one of the few guys I respect as a true innovator in this sport/hobby is behind it only proves I'm right.
12-11-2007, 05:14 PM
#40
).Best regards,
12-12-2007, 08:40 AM
#42
Tech Rookie
Wow, I don't know where you get your prices or time frames but I can get alot more than 1 day out of a gallon of fuel, more like a couple weeks running 3 or 4 days a week for an hour or two a day. Last time I check its about 80 bucks for a piston/sleeve for my revo 3.3, and the engine in my tmaxx cost me $109.99.
However, I'm not in any way knocking electric stuff as I don't know much about it. I have a new emaxx ordered because its waterproof and I'm sick of winterizing my nitro stuff each year.
I have a bone stock original clodbuster that mostly sits on a shelf. I play with it a couple times a year just because I always wanted one growing up and could never afford one.
I'm looking forward to learning about electric stuff. I am honeslty clueless about all the lipo this and 4600mah that blah blah blah. Up till now batteries have only been a way to power my servos. Should be fun I like learning new stuff.
However, I'm not in any way knocking electric stuff as I don't know much about it. I have a new emaxx ordered because its waterproof and I'm sick of winterizing my nitro stuff each year.
I have a bone stock original clodbuster that mostly sits on a shelf. I play with it a couple times a year just because I always wanted one growing up and could never afford one.
I'm looking forward to learning about electric stuff. I am honeslty clueless about all the lipo this and 4600mah that blah blah blah. Up till now batteries have only been a way to power my servos. Should be fun I like learning new stuff.
12-12-2007, 01:09 PM
#43
My numbers are based on one guy racing 2 classes of 8th scale, a buggy and truggy. Depending on spillage, a gallon of fuel yields about 29 or 30 125cc tanks. Using an average of 5 minutes of run time per 125cc that's right at 2.5 hours of run time per gallon. Running two classes for 3 heats of five minutes each takes 6 tanks, running a 30 minute main with both will take an additional 12 tanks. That's 18 tanks and does not include any practice time, or the 3 to 5 minute warmup before every heat and main. If you practice for 30 minutes with each car that's another 12 tanks. So 30 minutes of practice, 3 heats of five minutes, and a 30 minute main with 2 cars will easily use 30 tanks in a single day. Warmup will add an additional half to full tank per vehicle per heat and main, so as you can see, a gallon will go much faster than people who have never actually raced believe it will. If you practice more, or run a longer main you will need more than a gallon to run 2 classes of 8th scale. Even if you are running a single car, you will still wind up buying a gallon per race day because you won't have enough left over from one day to race the next full program, so you wind up buying a new gallon to make sure you don't run out of fuel the next time you go racing.
This does not take into account that current truggies all have 150cc tanks on them, but I was too lazy to use a 125cc and a 150cc tank in my calculations, but based on my actual nitro racing experience, I learned (the hard way) to budget for 1 gallon of fuel per car per race day. The last time I raced a full year I had less than half a gallon of fuel left over at the end of the season. I am also aware that some current engines will yield more than 5 minutes per tank, but to get that extra runtime requires you to buy an engine costing between $350 and $500. Your average budget or sport .21 will run more than 5 minutes on a tank, but only if it's perfectly tuned and even then it will end a five minute heat running on fumes.
Oh and something else I'm confused about. What the heck is a casual racer? If such a person exists, I've never met one.
This does not take into account that current truggies all have 150cc tanks on them, but I was too lazy to use a 125cc and a 150cc tank in my calculations, but based on my actual nitro racing experience, I learned (the hard way) to budget for 1 gallon of fuel per car per race day. The last time I raced a full year I had less than half a gallon of fuel left over at the end of the season. I am also aware that some current engines will yield more than 5 minutes per tank, but to get that extra runtime requires you to buy an engine costing between $350 and $500. Your average budget or sport .21 will run more than 5 minutes on a tank, but only if it's perfectly tuned and even then it will end a five minute heat running on fumes.
Oh and something else I'm confused about. What the heck is a casual racer? If such a person exists, I've never met one.
Last edited by fhm555; 12-12-2007 at 01:25 PM.
12-13-2007, 02:35 AM
#44
I was racing (track is really far away now) a mbx5t with a mach 427, before that a revo with the 3.3. I have yet to go through anywheres near that amount of fuel. If you are going to debate nitro vs electric, at least be honest in your assesment. Yes, practice will take up more fuel. And practice will require you to buy more battery packs. So two classes running single battery packs in each will require at least, hmmm....1 battery for each vehicle for practice =2, one battery pack each for each qualifer=4, and for a long main 2 packs each=4, that equals 10 packs at $150 per battery =$1500 just for batteries. No Thanks, I will pay the $20 per gallon of nitro
12-13-2007, 03:44 PM
#45
With LiPo you would not need all those batteries. One pack will last you all through practice, re-charge and then all three qualifiers, re-charge and then the main. LiPos can be charged, ran, charged, ran, charged, ran....... They are not like NiMh cells. So you really only need one. But I'm sure most peeps would own two so they can use the 2nd while the first is charging.
BTW....I'm working on the list now
Best regards,
BTW....I'm working on the list now
Best regards,