Ending the boost/ramp wars for stock classes; Do you want it?
11-20-2011, 02:53 AM
#16
We've had this debate many times on this forum, it is still a debate in the UK for many classes.
It seems that most the racers who run in boost don't want to drop it (because they like having the fastest "stock" motor), while most of the racers who have gone "blinky" are kicking themselves over wasting a few years with boost.
Boost doesn't make the racing better and it certainly doesn't make the cars any more driveable, but it does mean that the drivers with a lot of time to practice can indulge in a bit of software racing to make their "stock" car faster than anyone elses. It's a nonsense really, because boosted stock cars are barely any slower than the brushed modifieds of a few years ago - but everyone claimed brushed modified was too fast which was why they wouldn't race it.
There is a rather unpleasant attitude prevalent in on-road racing, where drivers would rather have the fastest "slow" car than drive in a class for fast cars where driving skill matters. The vote from the floor of the BRCA AGM in the UK has taken this to the illogical conclusion by actually removing modified from the nationals, so Andy Moore will now have to race a stock motor to retain his title (chance are that the best modified racers will still be the best in a stock class).
As far as the potential motor wars is concerned, that is easily resolved by tightening up the construction rules to ban advanced timing on the motors and to make the rotors more easily scrutineerable with a notch on the end.
It seems that most the racers who run in boost don't want to drop it (because they like having the fastest "stock" motor), while most of the racers who have gone "blinky" are kicking themselves over wasting a few years with boost.
Boost doesn't make the racing better and it certainly doesn't make the cars any more driveable, but it does mean that the drivers with a lot of time to practice can indulge in a bit of software racing to make their "stock" car faster than anyone elses. It's a nonsense really, because boosted stock cars are barely any slower than the brushed modifieds of a few years ago - but everyone claimed brushed modified was too fast which was why they wouldn't race it.
There is a rather unpleasant attitude prevalent in on-road racing, where drivers would rather have the fastest "slow" car than drive in a class for fast cars where driving skill matters. The vote from the floor of the BRCA AGM in the UK has taken this to the illogical conclusion by actually removing modified from the nationals, so Andy Moore will now have to race a stock motor to retain his title (chance are that the best modified racers will still be the best in a stock class).
As far as the potential motor wars is concerned, that is easily resolved by tightening up the construction rules to ban advanced timing on the motors and to make the rotors more easily scrutineerable with a notch on the end.
11-20-2011, 03:27 AM
#17
We've had this debate many times on this forum, it is still a debate in the UK for many classes.
It seems that most the racers who run in boost don't want to drop it (because they like having the fastest "stock" motor), while most of the racers who have gone "blinky" are kicking themselves over wasting a few years with boost.
It seems that most the racers who run in boost don't want to drop it (because they like having the fastest "stock" motor), while most of the racers who have gone "blinky" are kicking themselves over wasting a few years with boost.
It works well IMO.
Boost doesn't make the racing better and it certainly doesn't make the cars any more driveable, but it does mean that the drivers with a lot of time to practice can indulge in a bit of software racing to make their "stock" car faster than anyone elses. It's a nonsense really, because boosted stock cars are barely any slower than the brushed modifieds of a few years ago - but everyone claimed brushed modified was too fast which was why they wouldn't race it.
There is a rather unpleasant attitude prevalent in on-road racing, where drivers would rather have the fastest "slow" car than drive in a class for fast cars where driving skill matters. The vote from the floor of the BRCA AGM in the UK has taken this to the illogical conclusion by actually removing modified from the nationals, so Andy Moore will now have to race a stock motor to retain his title (chance are that the best modified racers will still be the best in a stock class).
This is a backwards step we need to move forwards.
11-20-2011, 06:19 AM
#18
you want equal stock racing its easy.......
Same battery and same motor and same esc and same chassis and same tyres and the club hands out the whole lot so everything all comes from the same batch......
Come on really why is this such a big deal all the time........ its all about choice and the approval lists are there for a reason follow them and if your not winning then change to something that can make you win... but no point in having everything cause the fastest guy at your track has all the gear now you have cause if you cant drive well thats not the gears fault
I dont know why everyone whats to focus on stock racing...... if you really wanna go stock racing buy some rock crawler motors that are brushed and 55 turns........
In a ideal world you would want a open or expert class at 21.5 17.5 10.5 and then open mod.....
then with how you would run the stock versions of those other clases than mod you could limit battery capacity and c rating. limit fdr or rollout if using foam tyres.... Hey they do approval lists to say the stuff is approved.... If you can do the research and most of the winning is done in the pits with wrenching then your most of the way then just shut ur mouth and keep learning......
Your never going to stop technology and if you do then no one will be attracted to anything as then everyone will whinge gee this is boring its the same thing over and over......
There will be nothing even enough for ppl to stop this convo....... and for all you ppl out there that think motor and esc is the thing that should be controlled for stock racing but yet everything else is open... you guys are clowns......
if you had two identical cars with all electrics and battery was perfectly the same and the cars are also the same but one had 5bucks worth of bearings in it and the other had ceramics and trust me its only bearings... haha your wrong start learning about everything and not just cause this motor is faster than the other and this esc is a cheater....
Approval lists are there use them and stop whinging until you are the head of a committee and make the changes yourselves instead of sitting here on a forum and not putting your name to anything lol....
Oh and good luck but study and practice and learn more...
Fordy
Same battery and same motor and same esc and same chassis and same tyres and the club hands out the whole lot so everything all comes from the same batch......
Come on really why is this such a big deal all the time........ its all about choice and the approval lists are there for a reason follow them and if your not winning then change to something that can make you win... but no point in having everything cause the fastest guy at your track has all the gear now you have cause if you cant drive well thats not the gears fault
I dont know why everyone whats to focus on stock racing...... if you really wanna go stock racing buy some rock crawler motors that are brushed and 55 turns........
In a ideal world you would want a open or expert class at 21.5 17.5 10.5 and then open mod.....
then with how you would run the stock versions of those other clases than mod you could limit battery capacity and c rating. limit fdr or rollout if using foam tyres.... Hey they do approval lists to say the stuff is approved.... If you can do the research and most of the winning is done in the pits with wrenching then your most of the way then just shut ur mouth and keep learning......
Your never going to stop technology and if you do then no one will be attracted to anything as then everyone will whinge gee this is boring its the same thing over and over......
There will be nothing even enough for ppl to stop this convo....... and for all you ppl out there that think motor and esc is the thing that should be controlled for stock racing but yet everything else is open... you guys are clowns......
if you had two identical cars with all electrics and battery was perfectly the same and the cars are also the same but one had 5bucks worth of bearings in it and the other had ceramics and trust me its only bearings... haha your wrong start learning about everything and not just cause this motor is faster than the other and this esc is a cheater....
Approval lists are there use them and stop whinging until you are the head of a committee and make the changes yourselves instead of sitting here on a forum and not putting your name to anything lol....
Oh and good luck but study and practice and learn more...
Fordy
11-20-2011, 06:44 AM
#19
Most places have multiple classes, I just don't get why people can't find a class that works for them. If one class' rules are limiting how fast you want to go, then move to the next fastest class. If the fastest class is still not fast enough for you then maybe you need to bash and do speed runs in front of your house because you're obviously not there for the racing.
The funnest class we have locally is the Tamiya mini class, we have spec BL motors and speedos (Thanks ORCA) so everyone has the same electronics. Three chassis choices, and Tamiya tires only It's the closest, funnest, but slowest racing there is, so I still enjoy our TC classes that have more open esc and motor choices.
I learned early that it's not about the equipment you used, it's about how you drive it. I have the same TC equipment as the fastest guys in the club, but they still beat me easily because THEY'RE BETTER DRIVERS. And some of the fastest guys are using old equipment that most would consider useless.
The funnest class we have locally is the Tamiya mini class, we have spec BL motors and speedos (Thanks ORCA) so everyone has the same electronics. Three chassis choices, and Tamiya tires only It's the closest, funnest, but slowest racing there is, so I still enjoy our TC classes that have more open esc and motor choices.
I learned early that it's not about the equipment you used, it's about how you drive it. I have the same TC equipment as the fastest guys in the club, but they still beat me easily because THEY'RE BETTER DRIVERS. And some of the fastest guys are using old equipment that most would consider useless.
11-20-2011, 07:24 AM
#20
better driving is the key.
Last edited by oldrcr; 11-20-2011 at 07:40 AM.
11-20-2011, 08:08 AM
#21
My local club runs blinky 17.5. It is very equal and it is a lot cheaper to run for new guys because they don't need fancy timing capable ESCs ($140 Novak Edge combo is perfectly competitive). I think 17.5 is a bit too slow, but that's just my opinion; the racing is what matters and in the end the racing is good.
I run an old 17.5 motor I bought for $30 a couple years ago with a Tekin RS and a fairly cheap 5000mah 50C pack and I get one car length pulled on me down the straight by the guy with the best equipment. I don't push my equipment to the very edge and if I did I could probably get half a car length back, but whatever, it's club racing.
Bottom line (from experience): Blinky works to equalize things. The guys who were winning before are still winning and the slow guys can't blame their equipment as much as they could before.
I run an old 17.5 motor I bought for $30 a couple years ago with a Tekin RS and a fairly cheap 5000mah 50C pack and I get one car length pulled on me down the straight by the guy with the best equipment. I don't push my equipment to the very edge and if I did I could probably get half a car length back, but whatever, it's club racing.
Bottom line (from experience): Blinky works to equalize things. The guys who were winning before are still winning and the slow guys can't blame their equipment as much as they could before.
11-20-2011, 01:45 PM
#22
BTW this situation of finding the edge at the expense of gear and $$$ has always come about in all forms of racing when ever the class becomes static.
If the class is in a state of flux people are too busy adapting to the changes rather than throwing piles of money and pushing gear beyond its limits to find the edge over there competitors.
IMO the best way to keep things level and reasonably priced is to keep the class evolving.
If the class is in a state of flux people are too busy adapting to the changes rather than throwing piles of money and pushing gear beyond its limits to find the edge over there competitors.
IMO the best way to keep things level and reasonably priced is to keep the class evolving.
11-20-2011, 03:12 PM
#23
Oh no it doesn't, pull that "claiming" BS at an IMCA circle track race and get your ass kicked for your trouble. They tried that shit with brushed motors. I would sooner smash my carefully tuned motor to tiny bits with my sledgehammer and receive no money or replacement than hand it over to a jealous or incompetent racer on a "claim" basis. Cost does NOT equal effort or competence.
Shawn
11-20-2011, 03:27 PM
#24
I have been reading alot of these forums about boost/no boost etc. Just want to point acouple of things out.
1) For new comers, blinky is better, as it gives them less to worry about and figure out. they should be concentrating on getting their car around the track in one piece, rather then making a straight line missile.
2) You can fry motors just as easily, or easier, with Boost. Its seems alot of people think there car is fast enough with running boost that they dont need to push the motor to the edge. Thats aload of crap. My motors come off the track at 170 in blinky, and guess what. I make sure they come off at 170 for boosted too. Why? Because if I dont push the motor to the limit the other guy will pass me on the straight.
3) Good batteries always make a difference. Boosted or Not Boosted, if your batteries are in poor condition, or are low quality, you will notice it on the track.
One finial point, at our local track, we switched from Boosted to Blinky. There was alot of conversation about FDRs, and timing on the motor. And as it turns out almost all the top drives had different (But similar) FDRS and each motor required a different timing to find its sweet spot. The performance of each car was very close however.
Shawn
1) For new comers, blinky is better, as it gives them less to worry about and figure out. they should be concentrating on getting their car around the track in one piece, rather then making a straight line missile.
2) You can fry motors just as easily, or easier, with Boost. Its seems alot of people think there car is fast enough with running boost that they dont need to push the motor to the edge. Thats aload of crap. My motors come off the track at 170 in blinky, and guess what. I make sure they come off at 170 for boosted too. Why? Because if I dont push the motor to the limit the other guy will pass me on the straight.
3) Good batteries always make a difference. Boosted or Not Boosted, if your batteries are in poor condition, or are low quality, you will notice it on the track.
One finial point, at our local track, we switched from Boosted to Blinky. There was alot of conversation about FDRs, and timing on the motor. And as it turns out almost all the top drives had different (But similar) FDRS and each motor required a different timing to find its sweet spot. The performance of each car was very close however.
Shawn
11-20-2011, 04:06 PM
#25
I think that both classes have a spot in racing. Blinky (as stated before) forces new drivers to concentrate more on car setup and driving rather than finding all kinds of power. We moved to spec tires this year in blinky and the racing has never been closer.
Today I put the boost back in the car and had a blast. Forgot how much fun it is to scream down the back straight. IMO, boosted is closer in feel to mod than 13.5 blinky. I ran 13.5 at the paved nats and the feel is not the same. Boosted provides a closer feel to mod with the abrupt power application and noticable acceleration difference.
Remember, this is racing. There is a place to help introduce new people, but in the end, we are all going to spend whatever we want, race whatever we want, and complain about both. That's just what we do.
Today I put the boost back in the car and had a blast. Forgot how much fun it is to scream down the back straight. IMO, boosted is closer in feel to mod than 13.5 blinky. I ran 13.5 at the paved nats and the feel is not the same. Boosted provides a closer feel to mod with the abrupt power application and noticable acceleration difference.
Remember, this is racing. There is a place to help introduce new people, but in the end, we are all going to spend whatever we want, race whatever we want, and complain about both. That's just what we do.
11-20-2011, 04:46 PM
#26
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Last edited by Drillit; 11-20-2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: waste of bandwidth needs to go to chat lounge
11-20-2011, 05:14 PM
#27
11-20-2011, 05:51 PM
#28
If we all stand in a circle and use the person to the left of us equipment that should solve everything assuming you are standing to the left of the fast equipment
Just kidding I know the "fast" drivers always win just saying
it is an interesting situation never being able to have equal equipment yet that seems impossible and this is assuming only blinky was allowed
Just kidding I know the "fast" drivers always win just saying
it is an interesting situation never being able to have equal equipment yet that seems impossible and this is assuming only blinky was allowed
11-20-2011, 06:21 PM
#29
This converstation is dumb, redundant and will never end. You have to learn everything about the equipment, I mean everything. Until you do, stop complaining. When you do, you should be able to compete. This hobby is not easy, it is challenging, frustrating and requires alot of effort to be really good. Get over it! Since the introduction of Lipos, racing is more fair than it has ever been. Yet, we still have the same people that think when someone is faster than them, they bought it or cheated. Believe it or not, it all comes down to driving. Let any of the top drivers in the world give you there equipment and the likelihood of you doing anything close to what they can do is slim to none. Enjoy the racing and have fun!! Stop creating excuses for yourcdeficiencies!!
11-20-2011, 06:33 PM
#30
I have been reading alot of these forums about boost/no boost etc. Just want to point acouple of things out.
1) For new comers, blinky is better, as it gives them less to worry about and figure out. they should be concentrating on getting their car around the track in one piece, rather then making a straight line missile.
2) You can fry motors just as easily, or easier, with Boost. Its seems alot of people think there car is fast enough with running boost that they dont need to push the motor to the edge. Thats aload of crap. My motors come off the track at 170 in blinky, and guess what. I make sure they come off at 170 for boosted too. Why? Because if I dont push the motor to the limit the other guy will pass me on the straight.
Shawn
1) For new comers, blinky is better, as it gives them less to worry about and figure out. they should be concentrating on getting their car around the track in one piece, rather then making a straight line missile.
2) You can fry motors just as easily, or easier, with Boost. Its seems alot of people think there car is fast enough with running boost that they dont need to push the motor to the edge. Thats aload of crap. My motors come off the track at 170 in blinky, and guess what. I make sure they come off at 170 for boosted too. Why? Because if I dont push the motor to the limit the other guy will pass me on the straight.
Shawn
With blinky guys are pushing there motors 180 and beyond killing rotors. Stupid I know but that is what they are doing to win.
As to blinky being easier, just like car setups ESC setups are readily available. I have seen young kids get there new ESC load settings they find on the web and they are 90% of the way there and it doesn't take long for them to get another 5%...
Setting up dynamic timing isn't hard and it sure is a shit load easier, faster and cheaper than pollishing bushes, brush springs, comm drops, cutting brushes ect.