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Old 11-19-2011, 09:30 PM   #1
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Default Ending the boost/ramp wars for stock classes; Do you want it?

A gentle discussion about revamping stock classes as actually stock

Not to diss companies that specialize in boost/ramp/turbosizing but isn't it much more fair to racers without needing super batt's and pretty much just Tekin speedo's and the absolute best motor in a entire production

How would racing be with the motor companies having motors currently in use?

Are they equal? I know first hand that Team Powers motors in 17.5/13.5 are ballistic in blinky yet are all as fast as TP?

Would it be a fair playing ground for consumers for stock with what companies are making available in stock motor wise?

Reorganizing the classes with drivers approaching the class they are suited for without fear of being beat by technology when as good drivers they have a real chance at winning A mains

It would an adjustment for some to race in a class that might be not usual for them since if someone wants to say race 13.5 boosted but only blinky is offered hence modified just got an extra racer?

Would an implemented "blinky" only atmosphere expose who the really great racers are not being dependent on technology to give them a win even if they must mostly depend on a master setup and drive great to win these races and subsequent titles?

Blinky vs. Boost/Ramp/Turbosizing?

You be the judge
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:36 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
A gentle discussion about revamping stock classes as actually stock

Not to diss companies that specialize in boost/ramp/turbosizing but isn't it much more fair to racers without needing super batt's and pretty much just Tekin speedo's and the absolute best motor in a entire production except for the speedo, that sounds like blinky racing to me.

How would racing be with the motor companies having motors currently in use? what?

Are they equal? No I know first hand that Team Powers motors in 17.5/13.5 are ballistic in blinky yet are all as fast as TP?

Would it be a fair playing ground for stock with what consumers are making available in stock motor wise? again, what?

Reorganizing the classes with drivers approaching the class they are suited for without fear of being beat by technology when as good drivers they have a real chance at winning A mains good drivers win no matter what. Technology advances no matter what.

It would an adjustment for some to race in a class that might be not usual for them since if someone wants to say race 13.5 boosted but only blinky is offered hence modified just got an extra racer? restricted motor boosted vs. mod are two very different things.

Would an implemented "blinky" only atmosphere expose who the really great racers are not being dependent on technology to give them a win even if they must mostly depend on a master setup and drive great to win these races and subsequent titles? The best drivers still win

Blinky vs. Boost/Ramp/Turbosizing?

You be the judge
see the red
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:44 PM   #3
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Sadly you'll never end technology wars with rules restricting equipment. To this day, the only effective "rule" that limited what equipment you ran were "claiming" races.

You race with certain rules and if someone thinks you're running a hot motor or hot battery pack (this was back in the NiCd days) they could claim motors for $20 and batteries for $40. Thus people didn't cheat by running a hot $100 battery pack for fear of loosing it for $40. Thus people didn't try and push the rules to far. You still had those that had to have the newest motor claiming to be .03% faster than the last motor but you'll never stop that.

Why not add an ESC claimer for $150? That would keep COSTS down since you wouldn't have to go out and get that $250 ESC with blinky mode since it's the latest and greatest.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:48 PM   #4
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For offroad, sure, no boost is fine. For onroad, especially 1s, boost will stave off the REALLY EXPENSIVE motor and battery wars akin to the last of the brushed/NiMH days searching for that last little bit of punch. I think that there must be a boosted class, at MY track where we only have a few 1/12 racers we always ran boosted. Now we are experimenting with blinky as it seems to slow the fast down and speed the slow up, and its working as predicted, but we all have "sportsman" gear. I imagine at a big national race where the battery manufacturers are testing all incoming LiPo's for actual internal resistance to get 100c, 120c, and so on. Put a 90C battery under 50 amps of load and its output voltage will drop very little compared to a 40C, but it used to be that you countered that bad battery with dynamic timing, not in blinky class. Its a double-edged sword, but I think that road classes should be boosted unless its the lowest-power stock class, like a 17.5 or 21.5 sportsman/novice setup.

Well, that's my ten cents, my two cents was free.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:50 PM   #5
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I've said it on every thread like this one.

Motor / Esc claim rules ends all BS.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
see the red
I am color blind

Just kidding ...lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
A gentle discussion about revamping stock classes as actually stock

Not to diss companies that specialize in boost/ramp/turbosizing but isn't it much more fair to racers without needing super batt's and pretty much just Tekin speedo's and the absolute best motor in a entire production

How would racing be with the motor companies having motors currently in use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
what?
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Are motors equal right now? Forgive me for not being entirely clear

Are they equal? I know first hand that Team Powers motors in 17.5/13.5 are ballistic in blinky yet are all as fast as TP?
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
No
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
So there is stock motors faster than others so am I hearing you say no matter boost or blinky there is still unequal technology currently?

Would it be a fair playing ground for consumers for stock with what companies are making available in stock motor wise?
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
Again what?
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
If blinky was universally implemented could average consumer get an equal motor?

Reorganizing the classes with drivers approaching the class they are suited for without fear of being beat by technology when as good drivers they have a real chance at winning A mains
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
good drivers win no matter what. Technology advances no matter what.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
You are correct but regardless of Technology advancement is it easier for drivers who can obtain similar quality components be able to stand greater against current great drivers hence creating even greater competition and making greater classes and maybe turnouts cause of equal ground for races?

It would an adjustment for some to race in a class that might be not usual for them since if someone wants to say race 13.5 boosted but only blinky is offered hence modified just got an extra racer?
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restricted motor boosted vs. mod are two very different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
In trying to relay my curiosity I think I could have been more clear. I was saying if 13.5 racers who couldn't boost past a blinky atmosphere would that cause more drivers to move "up" an class to perhaps balance out the classes

Would an implemented "blinky" only atmosphere expose who the really great racers are not being dependent on technology to give them a win even if they must mostly depend on a master setup and drive great to win these races and subsequent titles?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
The best drivers still win
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
No one can contest that but sometimes when the playing field is made or monitored more equally then other drivers appear and drivers who would normally stay in a class they are used to might move up or down driving depending of course. I am curious of the adjustment also when classes are reorganized because of technology specs being equal hence one speedo is for fast or drivers not an variable as important as setup/driving

Blinky vs. Boost/Ramp/Turbosizing?

You be the judge
I'm still working on quoting bear with me please

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Old 11-19-2011, 10:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Joe Maxey View Post
I've said it on every thread like this one.

Motor / Esc claim rules ends all BS.
Oh no it doesn't, pull that "claiming" BS at an IMCA circle track race and get your ass kicked for your trouble. They tried that shit with brushed motors. I would sooner smash my carefully tuned motor to tiny bits with my sledgehammer and receive no money or replacement than hand it over to a jealous or incompetent racer on a "claim" basis. Cost does NOT equal effort or competence.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:25 PM   #8
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Oh no it doesn't, pull that "claiming" BS at an IMCA circle track race and get your ass kicked for your trouble. They tried that shit with brushed motors. I would sooner smash my carefully tuned motor to tiny bits with my sledgehammer and receive no money or replacement than hand it over to a jealous or incompetent racer on a "claim" basis. Cost does NOT equal effort or competence.
It is an imperfect implementation technique but requiring the driver that is claimed it indeed would make drivers either have a "secret" backup or like it is intended to do make the claimed pull another rabbit outta of their hat so to speak

What is the maximum claim times per racer anyhow. 2 times? Can't keep on taking their motors ...lol
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Old 11-19-2011, 11:58 PM   #9
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Where are all these CLAIM races, i need a new motor, speedy and lipo combo for all my cars.

A better way to settle this would be to have a gear swap race after the event, when you dust them with their own cars i think any claim to running hot anything can be quickly dismissed.
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by RogerDaShrubber View Post
Where are all these CLAIM races, i need a new motor, speedy and lipo combo for all my cars.

A better way to settle this would be to have a gear swap race after the event, when you dust them with their own cars i think any claim to running hot anything can be quickly dismissed.
If we all stand in a circle and use the person to the left of us equipment that should solve everything assuming you are standing to the left of the fast equipment

Just kidding I know the "fast" drivers always win just saying it is an interesting situation never being able to have equal equipment yet that seems impossible and this is assuming only blinky was allowed
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:25 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Not to diss companies that specialize in boost/ramp/turbosizing but isn't it much more fair to racers without needing super batt's and pretty much just Tekin speedo's and the absolute best motor in a entire production
Is there a companyproducing ESC's for racers that doesn't have a dynamic timing ESC?? With dynamic timing having the best motor and pushing the motor to there absolute limits isn't required.

With blinky ESC you need super batts and the absolute best motor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
How would racing be with the motor companies having motors currently in use?
????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Are they equal? I know first hand that Team Powers motors in 17.5/13.5 are ballistic in blinky yet are all as fast as TP?
With blinky mode people are using different motors for different tracks and pushing motors to the point of failure. (Likewise with liipos)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Would it be a fair playing ground for consumers for stock with what companies are making available in stock motor wise?
Not sure what you mean exactly but the same gear is available to everyone in theory it will be a fair playing field.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Reorganizing the classes with drivers approaching the class they are suited for without fear of being beat by technology when as good drivers they have a real chance at winning A mains
Technology is part of the game always has been always will be. Once the inital experimentation and setup of ESCs, gearing and motor timing has been done to find the optimal settings they need very little adjustment.

There are many settings posted on the net and even a novice racer can get 90% of the way there with no knowlege or experience.

Tuning chassi shocks suspension ect is exactly the same. Back 15 years ago you had to spend hrs and hrs playing with the car to get the best out of it, these days the complete novice can use the latest team driver setup and the car works well out of the box. This is no different to dynamic timing ESCs.


Quote:
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Would an implemented "blinky" only atmosphere expose who the really great racers are not being dependent on technology to give them a win even if they must mostly depend on a master setup and drive great to win these races and subsequent titles?
No the blinky only option has increased cost and created a power war where as this was a non issue using dynamic timing ESCs.

With blinky to be at the front you need $$$$.

Locally we are using dynamic timing and reducing speed with motor choice. There was talk of going to blinky ESCs as are used else where but it was decided to be a poorer option.
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:28 AM   #12
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@frozenpod

Thanks for your comments

I'm learning a little more from both sides blinky/boost each post
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:49 AM   #13
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BTW there is no ultimate solution, there has always been this problem with electric racing and power wars with more $$$ equaling more speed.

With gas cars this was less of a problem.
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Old 11-20-2011, 02:46 AM   #14
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Default Better driving is the solution

I agree that better driving is the solution. Too much time and money spent on buying the best equipment, when driving better is whats needed.

I am back to thinking everyone should race mod, or open.

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Old 11-20-2011, 03:36 AM   #15
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It is much easier to build the RPM limit into the ESC rather than modifying the sensor output.

Limiting top speed would help but the real key to being fast is the punch out of corners. As you say this would help aid better driving though.

End of the day if there is an advantage to be had by $$$ there are racers who will take that path rather than become better drivers.
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