ROAR to 4 cell....
12-05-2006, 08:57 AM
#1006
This past weekend i ran some 4 cell touring in practice. It is just slighlty faster then stock 6 cell (lap time wise). The car does not take as much abuse and even with a far higher gearing(needed for performence), the motor dosn't get as hot. The car of course was more nimble with less weight to lug around, but the battery was not very happy (imagine an angry battery pack..haha). My cells seemed to have taken a bit more abuse then normal. If we were to run 4 cell mod to have the same power as 6 cell 19, everyone who wants to run it competatively will need new packs very often, just for club race.
I hope that 4 cell doesn't make its way into our touring cars anytime soon.
I hope that 4 cell doesn't make its way into our touring cars anytime soon.
12-05-2006, 09:41 AM
#1007
Tech Regular
ROAR is going to set back and see what the rest of the world comes up with so at least we have some time to experiment a little to see what works...
It's funny to me that a lot of the people that are dead set against 4 cell are the stock guys. It's really not that expensive to move up to 19 turn. Everyone that I know that runs stock has one or two motors that they run all the time because they're the fastest ones that they have. It doesn't take 5 or 6 motors to be compeditive. Having a bunch of stock motors in your box that you don't even use isn't an excuse. 19 turn motors aren't much more expensive than a stocker so it's not a big deal.
Both 19 turn and stock will be slower. They can't just "drop a wind" and make up the speed. There is a limit to how much more current the motors can draw before they stop making more mechanical power. The efficiency curve is a major part of the equation here not the amount of current that the winds can handle.
Just as a power example, say your typical stock 6 cell car is pulling 35 amps average for a 5 minute race. It's average power consumption is 270 watts given 1.124 volt cells. In order to use the same amount of power on 4 cells ou'll be pulling 60 amps continuous. Fact is, the motor is not efficient at 60 amps and it will just be slow and cook. Peak currents will show a similar trend.
Mod, will drop a wind or two and it will become more of a runtime and motor efficiency game. The efficiency of brushless motors will kill brushed motors in 4 cell unless there is a rules change.
It's funny to me that a lot of the people that are dead set against 4 cell are the stock guys. It's really not that expensive to move up to 19 turn. Everyone that I know that runs stock has one or two motors that they run all the time because they're the fastest ones that they have. It doesn't take 5 or 6 motors to be compeditive. Having a bunch of stock motors in your box that you don't even use isn't an excuse. 19 turn motors aren't much more expensive than a stocker so it's not a big deal.
Both 19 turn and stock will be slower. They can't just "drop a wind" and make up the speed. There is a limit to how much more current the motors can draw before they stop making more mechanical power. The efficiency curve is a major part of the equation here not the amount of current that the winds can handle.
Just as a power example, say your typical stock 6 cell car is pulling 35 amps average for a 5 minute race. It's average power consumption is 270 watts given 1.124 volt cells. In order to use the same amount of power on 4 cells ou'll be pulling 60 amps continuous. Fact is, the motor is not efficient at 60 amps and it will just be slow and cook. Peak currents will show a similar trend.
Mod, will drop a wind or two and it will become more of a runtime and motor efficiency game. The efficiency of brushless motors will kill brushed motors in 4 cell unless there is a rules change.
12-05-2006, 11:26 AM
#1009
Tech Regular
The batteries aren't the big expense in mod sedan. It's the tires. I can buy a good SMC 4 cell pack for $43 online ($65 for 6). A set of 4 wraps will set you back $34 at the same online store and they only last a few runs at best in mod if you're compeditive. At Cleveland, most were running a set of tires for one run.
So, I know of one factory racer that ran two packs in mod all weekend. That would have cost him $86 plus bars for 4 cell. Same racer ran new tires every run from practice to the mains. Let's see, 3 t-times, 4 qualifyers, and a main...That's a tire bill for us normal people of $272. Where would I be spending all of my money?
Even on 6 cells the batteries would be half the price of tires and you can actually use them after the race.
Even if you get 4 runs per set of tires in mod it doesn't take long for the tire cost to blow away the cost of batteries. Even if 4 cell only helps this a little, it's a good thing.
So, I know of one factory racer that ran two packs in mod all weekend. That would have cost him $86 plus bars for 4 cell. Same racer ran new tires every run from practice to the mains. Let's see, 3 t-times, 4 qualifyers, and a main...That's a tire bill for us normal people of $272. Where would I be spending all of my money?
Even on 6 cells the batteries would be half the price of tires and you can actually use them after the race.
Even if you get 4 runs per set of tires in mod it doesn't take long for the tire cost to blow away the cost of batteries. Even if 4 cell only helps this a little, it's a good thing.
12-05-2006, 11:32 AM
#1010
Originally Posted by Unregistered
It's funny to me that a lot of the people that are dead set against 4 cell are the stock guys.
Both 19 turn and stock will be slower. They can't just "drop a wind" and make up the speed. There is a limit to how much more current the motors can draw before they stop making more mechanical power. The efficiency curve is a major part of the equation here not the amount of current that the winds can handle.
Mod, will drop a wind or two and it will become more of a runtime and motor efficiency game. The efficiency of brushless motors will kill brushed motors in 4 cell unless there is a rules change.
Both 19 turn and stock will be slower. They can't just "drop a wind" and make up the speed. There is a limit to how much more current the motors can draw before they stop making more mechanical power. The efficiency curve is a major part of the equation here not the amount of current that the winds can handle.
Mod, will drop a wind or two and it will become more of a runtime and motor efficiency game. The efficiency of brushless motors will kill brushed motors in 4 cell unless there is a rules change.
12-05-2006, 11:36 AM
#1011
Originally Posted by ottoman
So what about all us 19t guys.... now we have to run mod and worry about dumping and batts... were as now (6 cell) we have NO problems.
Booo ! Hooo !!!
Like 19T is the top of the heap....
Move up , get better skills at the same time....
12-05-2006, 11:40 AM
#1012
Everyone seems to forget one thing...this isn't just about the racers.
True, only the racers would be concerned at all about ROARS rules but this change would affect what was sold at hobby shops and also affect designs of new chassis...which in turn affects non-racers. Bashers would be hurt and we all know that not everyone who buys a car races it. The Basher who had just bought Car 'A' and batteries and components and liked the speed (bashers are only really looking for speed) and the ease of use that he got from in-line packs, now goes to buy new batteries but can't buy the same packs anymore. Now his fast car that he liked to bash around with is slower and the battery doesn't fit right anymore and he's frustrated because he'd have to buy a whole new car and motors and other goodies just to get the same speed back again. He'd give up or if he's going to re-invest...it would probably not be in an electric this time. That really does a lot to help doesn't it...driving people away from RC. This kind of rule change would also change the face of RC sales as we know it. People say it would be cheaper, but we all know that it wouldn't. It would cost more to buy new battery packs (for people who use stick packs) and it would cost more to buy a new chassis that's optimized for the use of 4-cell. I know, the stick pack user can cut open the pack and rebuild it. Stick pack users, use them because they are simple...no building or soldering. Why would they want to cut up their packs and rebuild them for then? Oh, they could have someone else do it for them...also read...spend more $$$ on packs they already spent $$$ on. I know the arguement is that RTRs will be cheaper in the future and slower and easier to use. Sorry, nobody buying a RTR asks "How slow is this?". Bashers want speed, plain and simple. The other arguement seems to be "Who cares about the RTR crowd and bashers, they don't spend money or commit enough time to even care about the hobby". You'd be surprised. They spend enough money that almost every manufacturer makes RTR packages so they spend enough that manufacturers took notice.
Please, take note of not only the racers but also the bashers. They need love too and forcing them to go slower and spending a lot of money just to get back to the speeds they were going PLUS losing runtime is bad for the hobby and WILL drive more people away from the hobby than most people even know are involved.
True, only the racers would be concerned at all about ROARS rules but this change would affect what was sold at hobby shops and also affect designs of new chassis...which in turn affects non-racers. Bashers would be hurt and we all know that not everyone who buys a car races it. The Basher who had just bought Car 'A' and batteries and components and liked the speed (bashers are only really looking for speed) and the ease of use that he got from in-line packs, now goes to buy new batteries but can't buy the same packs anymore. Now his fast car that he liked to bash around with is slower and the battery doesn't fit right anymore and he's frustrated because he'd have to buy a whole new car and motors and other goodies just to get the same speed back again. He'd give up or if he's going to re-invest...it would probably not be in an electric this time. That really does a lot to help doesn't it...driving people away from RC. This kind of rule change would also change the face of RC sales as we know it. People say it would be cheaper, but we all know that it wouldn't. It would cost more to buy new battery packs (for people who use stick packs) and it would cost more to buy a new chassis that's optimized for the use of 4-cell. I know, the stick pack user can cut open the pack and rebuild it. Stick pack users, use them because they are simple...no building or soldering. Why would they want to cut up their packs and rebuild them for then? Oh, they could have someone else do it for them...also read...spend more $$$ on packs they already spent $$$ on. I know the arguement is that RTRs will be cheaper in the future and slower and easier to use. Sorry, nobody buying a RTR asks "How slow is this?". Bashers want speed, plain and simple. The other arguement seems to be "Who cares about the RTR crowd and bashers, they don't spend money or commit enough time to even care about the hobby". You'd be surprised. They spend enough money that almost every manufacturer makes RTR packages so they spend enough that manufacturers took notice.
Please, take note of not only the racers but also the bashers. They need love too and forcing them to go slower and spending a lot of money just to get back to the speeds they were going PLUS losing runtime is bad for the hobby and WILL drive more people away from the hobby than most people even know are involved.
12-05-2006, 12:36 PM
#1013
Tech Regular
Who says that we're forcing the bashers to 4 cells? Or changing the stick packs to 4 cells. Most bashers have some kind of offroad car or truck. I don't see the non racing RTR's from Traxxas and HPI turning to 4 cell any time soon.
The onroad cars won't change to 6 cells right away either. Maybe not at all. Don't think for a minute that the manufacturers aren't going to think about the "basher market" It is the bulk of their sales.
The 6 cell ROAR rule didn't stop the 12 cell E-Maxx did it?
The onroad cars won't change to 6 cells right away either. Maybe not at all. Don't think for a minute that the manufacturers aren't going to think about the "basher market" It is the bulk of their sales.
The 6 cell ROAR rule didn't stop the 12 cell E-Maxx did it?
12-05-2006, 01:17 PM
#1014
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Who says that we're forcing the bashers to 4 cells? Or changing the stick packs to 4 cells. Most bashers have some kind of offroad car or truck. I don't see the non racing RTR's from Traxxas and HPI turning to 4 cell any time soon.
The onroad cars won't change to 6 cells right away either. Maybe not at all. Don't think for a minute that the manufacturers aren't going to think about the "basher market" It is the bulk of their sales.
The 6 cell ROAR rule didn't stop the 12 cell E-Maxx did it?
The onroad cars won't change to 6 cells right away either. Maybe not at all. Don't think for a minute that the manufacturers aren't going to think about the "basher market" It is the bulk of their sales.
The 6 cell ROAR rule didn't stop the 12 cell E-Maxx did it?
12-05-2006, 01:21 PM
#1015
Tech Fanatic
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Tell me then...how many TCs in ANY form (new) do you see that handle more then 6-cells (without mods or custom hump-packs)? Oh yeah..that would be a huge ZERO!!!! So the 6-cell rule did have an affect on touring cars. Maybe not on off-road stuff but I don't know or care about that stuff at all nor am I discussing that since off-road has nothing to do with ROAR rules on touring cars. If you don't think that manufacturers would change all the chassis in the future to balance towards 4-cells and still be similar to their full race versions (even in RTR TCs) then you're mistaken. They won't make 6-cell RTR TCs for the basher and then 4-cell chassis for the racer. To much equipment to keep up with in the factories and such. Besides who, in racing, really wants to know that their "Race car" could EASILY get smoked by a box stock cheapie model. "Oh yeah, let me go out and buy this Ferrari that's slower than a bone-stock Chevy Malibu". To many people with the "dee de-dee" around here.
12-05-2006, 01:29 PM
#1016
Originally Posted by $rusty$
For the E-MAXX..it uses 2 6 cell packs..
12-05-2006, 01:41 PM
#1017
Originally Posted by Mark Payne
A more radical view would be to redesign the motors to be more efficient and require a HIGHER voltage. Now maybe go to a smaller capacity higher voltage LIPO or stay with 6 cells. Why is it assumed that we must keep carrying bloody Sub C sized cells in our cars?
Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
A stock motor is "REALLY" no longer a stock motor. Most dyno like a 14turn. Where is the entry level class?
Additionally, we would probably have better brushed motors if the ROAR rule that let's brushless motors carry a $129 retail price were applied to brushed motors. If brushed motors went to a retail of $129, you would see consideraby better motors. Doesn't seem fair to me.
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-05-2006 at 01:55 PM.
12-05-2006, 02:09 PM
#1018
Tech Rookie
The tc3 has room for seven cells, I think the xxx-s dose also, just for facts. The whole debate here is unnecessary at our track we made a class for newbies, and have a class for those who don't want to have to buy the latest thing( ae duel sports and 10th pan cars or t/c cars they just have to gear down to same top speed ), most of the guys (and one gal ) who run these aren't going to any roar events so no problem. I like to go to roar events (08 carpet nats, and off-road nats) so I buy what I need to keep up, if I didn't want to spend the money I could still go and probably finish 1 spot behind where I do now. come to think of it I still run my tc3ft at local track and save the tc4ft for the big races. got a hand cramp all for now
12-05-2006, 02:17 PM
#1019
To improve the racing and increase the gap between classes, stock motors need to be made more bullet-proof, and tuned to the level they used to be. Stock is not stock when you can finish 2 laps off a no-limit modified run.
There is virtually no seperation between the classes of stock, 19t and Mod. Where are the 99.9% of us that are NOT going to the nationals and worlds, fit in? A stock can make the 19t show at most club races, and a 19 has proven to be VERY good at getting you into the mod show at most club races, because it's easier to drive, is more forgiving, and requires less commitment.
Stock racing should be longer and would be a great trade-off. Knock 20 watts off the motor (wire diameter, more winds, lower timing, whatever you want to pick) and increase all stock 1/10 racing to 8 minutes. The car is going to go like 2 mph slower on the straight, and you'll get 60% more track time. That's a seriously good trade. PLUS, the motors will simply last a LOT longer.
19 is to close to mod. Whatever you want to do to it, but it needs to be more in line with a current stock, plus some efficiency. Could likely run for 8 minutes too.
MOD, knock yourself out. It's finally good enough that most club racers are putting in slightly less power to go faster. We need an unlimited place to put drivers interested in REALLY pushing it and hauling butt, and for the manufacturers to push and develop products. Mod is it.
When you have a MINIMUM of 2 laps seperation between all the classes at the highest level, you will have achieved a better racing environment.
When you can take a true world champion and come up with the following results, you'll have a good starting spot. Imagine you are looking at laps on a 5 minute run.
Mod = As fast as World Champ can physically go.
19 = -2.5 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
stock = -5 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
sportsman = -8 to 10 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
SEPERATION is the key to good racing classes and fair racing.
Tune it the way you like, try the motor you like with the cells you like, in the configuration you like, but when you have this kind of seperation, you will achieve good racing, with places for drivers to aspire to, and places for those that improve, to move to as part of the next level.
You should not be competitive in the faster class with the slower stuff, if the classes are set up correctly.
There is virtually no seperation between the classes of stock, 19t and Mod. Where are the 99.9% of us that are NOT going to the nationals and worlds, fit in? A stock can make the 19t show at most club races, and a 19 has proven to be VERY good at getting you into the mod show at most club races, because it's easier to drive, is more forgiving, and requires less commitment.
Stock racing should be longer and would be a great trade-off. Knock 20 watts off the motor (wire diameter, more winds, lower timing, whatever you want to pick) and increase all stock 1/10 racing to 8 minutes. The car is going to go like 2 mph slower on the straight, and you'll get 60% more track time. That's a seriously good trade. PLUS, the motors will simply last a LOT longer.
19 is to close to mod. Whatever you want to do to it, but it needs to be more in line with a current stock, plus some efficiency. Could likely run for 8 minutes too.
MOD, knock yourself out. It's finally good enough that most club racers are putting in slightly less power to go faster. We need an unlimited place to put drivers interested in REALLY pushing it and hauling butt, and for the manufacturers to push and develop products. Mod is it.
When you have a MINIMUM of 2 laps seperation between all the classes at the highest level, you will have achieved a better racing environment.
When you can take a true world champion and come up with the following results, you'll have a good starting spot. Imagine you are looking at laps on a 5 minute run.
Mod = As fast as World Champ can physically go.
19 = -2.5 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
stock = -5 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
sportsman = -8 to 10 laps, As fast as World Champ go. compared to mod
SEPERATION is the key to good racing classes and fair racing.
Tune it the way you like, try the motor you like with the cells you like, in the configuration you like, but when you have this kind of seperation, you will achieve good racing, with places for drivers to aspire to, and places for those that improve, to move to as part of the next level.
You should not be competitive in the faster class with the slower stuff, if the classes are set up correctly.
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-05-2006 at 02:28 PM.
12-05-2006, 02:40 PM
#1020
Originally Posted by buttheadtrucker
The tc3 has room for seven cells, I think the xxx-s dose also, just for facts. The whole debate here is unnecessary at our track we made a class for newbies, and have a class for those who don't want to have to buy the latest thing( ae duel sports and 10th pan cars or t/c cars they just have to gear down to same top speed ), most of the guys (and one gal ) who run these aren't going to any roar events so no problem. I like to go to roar events (08 carpet nats, and off-road nats) so I buy what I need to keep up, if I didn't want to spend the money I could still go and probably finish 1 spot behind where I do now. come to think of it I still run my tc3ft at local track and save the tc4ft for the big races. got a hand cramp all for now