IFMAR AGM in Collegno - Future of ISTC
07-18-2006, 09:29 AM
#556
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This would be an interesting test. Speedos don't need to be as small as they are although I understand that in the electronics field, smaller is more desirable.
I also would be willing to be that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
I also would be willing to be that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
07-18-2006, 09:33 AM
#557
I did some testing today with cut outs in the bodyshell...The speedo came off with 48deg Celsius and motor at 79deg C, no holes in shell. Then I cut out the side window and 50% of the rear window, the speedo came off at 37deg C and the motor at 66deg C. I ran with a fan on the speedo and a Tamiya heatsink on the motor. Track surface was around 50deg C, wont be much hotter here in Norway, LOL!
I did loose some steering with the holes in the shell, but the electronics was a bit cooler, NICE!!
I think we all should just wait and see whats happening in Japan, I am sure we will be getting some feedback on the 4Cell issue soon!
I did loose some steering with the holes in the shell, but the electronics was a bit cooler, NICE!!
I think we all should just wait and see whats happening in Japan, I am sure we will be getting some feedback on the 4Cell issue soon!
07-18-2006, 10:21 AM
#558
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I've had radio problem in 12th scale with a QC2 running 19 turn. Wonder how the BEC's will work with increased amp draw running 10th mod and 4 cells. If this does happen reciever packs will probably become the norm.
07-18-2006, 03:04 PM
#559
Tech Adept
I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
07-18-2006, 03:44 PM
#560
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells.
-Look at the lap times of the top 50 drivers at the 06 worlds and the heat results.
-Take in consideration the seemingly huge technological advantage you describe; top level racers have using the "commercially unavailable stuff", those "amazing batteries" and such, if i read you well, they should be a good second faster than anyone else.. if not more... heck..they should be lapping the whole field every 5 Mins !!!
- Actual results: Minute difference in lap times, probably better attributed to better managing of the tires than horespower or any electronic black magic.
-Take in consideration the seemingly huge technological advantage you describe; top level racers have using the "commercially unavailable stuff", those "amazing batteries" and such, if i read you well, they should be a good second faster than anyone else.. if not more... heck..they should be lapping the whole field every 5 Mins !!!
- Actual results: Minute difference in lap times, probably better attributed to better managing of the tires than horespower or any electronic black magic.
Not being nasty with this, but have you been to the worlds in the last 2 years? If so, did you run gear off the shelf or was it supplied by the manufactures ?
07-18-2006, 04:36 PM
#561
Originally Posted by burito
I tried discussing here to start, but open forums are obviously not the right places to discuss such things effectively!
Those in control at IFMAR will find answers, but we have to hope that the answers and changes made after all the talking and testing is done are ones that do help Modified TC at all levels not just the Worlds ISTC level.
Originally Posted by Advil
I would say that currently the elite have a problem. I also have the solution. Let market forces bear on the manufacturers. If the speedo can't handle the load, no one will buy it. When someone makes one that can, they get my money. Simple. Same goes with motors. If a car does not handle no one will buy it. Build one that does and you will clean up. Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel when a proven solution is at hand?
Originally Posted by Advil
I am hoping that the manufactures are willing and able to step up to the problem and overcome it. If they want my money they will rise to the occasion......if not, someone else will. Simple.
Originally Posted by King-G
My initial concern would be people using lower turn motors to compensate for the reduced voltage, and we'll end up using 4 turn brushed, and 2 turn brushless in no time..back to square 1.
Quote tc3team
"Want a happy medium? Try 19t...."
Originally Posted by tonyv
Ok. So all the "elite" drivers that are fed up with replacing their speedo/motor every heat or two should move to 19T? Works for me. Does it also work for those in 19T that want to go fast but don't move to mod because they hate losing?
Originally Posted by Patriiick
yeah..that way they ll "only" replace the motor every couple heats and save bundles on the ESCs ! 
Originally Posted by fastolfart
The electrical failure problems we are discussing here existed back in 2004. As an observer at this event, I watch the top factory teams replace speed controls for each race in fear of the potential damage from the previous run. Now the general public is now able to buy batteries of the equal to what the factory guys had 2 years ago. They are now seeing the issues that the factory racers had experienced back then.
Originally Posted by Advil
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells. The Novak Tempest comes to mind. I wonder how that beast would hold up to race conditions. The only reason I mention it is because it seems that ever since the Manufacturers shrank the size of speed controls the power/heat handling capabilities have been compromised. It seems like they are using fewer (higher quality) fets to do the same job.
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This would be an interesting test. Speedos don't need to be as small as they are although I understand that in the electronics field, smaller is more desirable.
I also would be willing to bet that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
I also would be willing to bet that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
07-18-2006, 06:07 PM
#562
Originally Posted by gotpez
I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
BRAVO!!!!!
Brant
07-18-2006, 08:41 PM
#563
Originally Posted by gotpez
I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.
Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.
With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.
What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.
In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.
I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
07-18-2006, 08:41 PM
#564
The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
It was said earlier, we will be different across the globe. Down under 5 cells, Japan 4, Europe what ever they choose, and the States what ever we choose.
But even scarier, will be that we will be different even in the states.
East Coast, Mid west, West Coast, South Coast all doing something different.
But what ever the choice some ppl will be mad. My only hope is that the Loud Few don’t get heard over the masses.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
It was said earlier, we will be different across the globe. Down under 5 cells, Japan 4, Europe what ever they choose, and the States what ever we choose.
But even scarier, will be that we will be different even in the states.
East Coast, Mid west, West Coast, South Coast all doing something different.
But what ever the choice some ppl will be mad. My only hope is that the Loud Few don’t get heard over the masses.
07-18-2006, 08:47 PM
#565
All the international santioning bodies talk to each other. If there is a change is will be world wide.
I have talked to a couple of US non ROAR race promotors. They say they have always follwed a mix of IFMAR and ROAR rules and if they go 4 cell all independant races in the US will follow.
FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
I have talked to a couple of US non ROAR race promotors. They say they have always follwed a mix of IFMAR and ROAR rules and if they go 4 cell all independant races in the US will follow.
FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
07-18-2006, 08:58 PM
#566
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
07-18-2006, 09:04 PM
#567
Originally Posted by AdrianM
FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
Adrian, can you please stop ignoring my posts? Look back at my last couple posts in this thread and tell me how I am wrong. I'm challenging you to see things the way I see them in addition to the way you see them.
07-18-2006, 09:07 PM
#568
This has NOTHING to do with LiPo coming or going. If there were such a think as 5V LiPo packs I would be on my roof top shouting that they were the the best thing since sliced bread. Unfortunatly there is no such thing as 5V LiPo and running 7.4V LiPo will be just as bad as 7.2V NiMh.
As I said before LiPo is super for airplanes...I own about a dozen LiPo packs right now. The are awesome....but are they "right" for racing cars...no. LiPo has a flaw in its voltage steps. 3.7...too low...7.4 too high.
As I said before LiPo is super for airplanes...I own about a dozen LiPo packs right now. The are awesome....but are they "right" for racing cars...no. LiPo has a flaw in its voltage steps. 3.7...too low...7.4 too high.
07-18-2006, 09:09 PM
#569
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
07-18-2006, 09:17 PM
#570
Adrian: What about my writing about compromising the handling of the cars somehow. Would you not agree that the fact that our shoe-box sized cars being able to handle speeds of 40+mph without the compromisation of handling on a track is a bit scary?
I'm not speaking for JohnMatrix but what I believe he might be getting at is your talking about DUMBING DOWN RACING.
Instead of talent/experience being a factor, it's about $$$. Going to 4-cell is not going to help that problem because our cars can handle the speed they are traveling at now. If we slow them down further, they will handle even better which takes talent out of the picture further. If we take talent out of the equasion more, then $$$ is going to matter more.
I'm not speaking for JohnMatrix but what I believe he might be getting at is your talking about DUMBING DOWN RACING.
Instead of talent/experience being a factor, it's about $$$. Going to 4-cell is not going to help that problem because our cars can handle the speed they are traveling at now. If we slow them down further, they will handle even better which takes talent out of the picture further. If we take talent out of the equasion more, then $$$ is going to matter more.