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Old 07-18-2006, 10:29 AM   #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This would be an interesting test. Speedos don't need to be as small as they are although I understand that in the electronics field, smaller is more desirable.

I also would be willing to be that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
I've had radio problem in 12th scale with a QC2 running 19 turn. Wonder how the BEC's will work with increased amp draw running 10th mod and 4 cells. If this does happen reciever packs will probably become the norm.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:33 AM   #557
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I did some testing today with cut outs in the bodyshell...The speedo came off with 48deg Celsius and motor at 79deg C, no holes in shell. Then I cut out the side window and 50% of the rear window, the speedo came off at 37deg C and the motor at 66deg C. I ran with a fan on the speedo and a Tamiya heatsink on the motor. Track surface was around 50deg C, wont be much hotter here in Norway, LOL!

I did loose some steering with the holes in the shell, but the electronics was a bit cooler, NICE!!

I think we all should just wait and see whats happening in Japan, I am sure we will be getting some feedback on the 4Cell issue soon!
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:21 AM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I've had radio problem in 12th scale with a QC2 running 19 turn. Wonder how the BEC's will work with increased amp draw running 10th mod and 4 cells. If this does happen reciever packs will probably become the norm.
that's always been an issue. the qc2 does not supply enough voltage to the servo under heavier throttle. a spektrum or novak cap will remedy this. the qc3 has been fixed iirc.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:04 PM   #559
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I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!

Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.

Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.

With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.


What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.

In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.

I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
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Old 07-18-2006, 04:44 PM   #560
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Quote:
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells.
The main reason for the development to smaller speed controls has been in the race for less resistance. The resistance, the more heat.

Quote:
-Look at the lap times of the top 50 drivers at the 06 worlds and the heat results.
-Take in consideration the seemingly huge technological advantage you describe; top level racers have using the "commercially unavailable stuff", those "amazing batteries" and such, if i read you well, they should be a good second faster than anyone else.. if not more... heck..they should be lapping the whole field every 5 Mins !!!
- Actual results: Minute difference in lap times, probably better attributed to better managing of the tires than horespower or any electronic black magic.
And you will find that all those drivers plus more have the nice fresh batteries that we never see on the LHS shelves. These are the drivers that should be at the worlds as you have already said they have driver - tyre - chassis management skills.
Not being nasty with this, but have you been to the worlds in the last 2 years? If so, did you run gear off the shelf or was it supplied by the manufactures ?
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Old 07-18-2006, 05:36 PM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burito
I tried discussing here to start, but open forums are obviously not the right places to discuss such things effectively!
I agree burito, I think you're right about it not being the place for discussing the technical issues that only a few people know in-depth, as there aren't many people around who design and manufacture ESC's and understand such things. But we don't need to discuss technical details with people because it's ESC users that are on here and making good points about some problems they and others are having (or not having!). What I am pointing out is that the problems may be worse for some electronics manufacturers than for some others. I'm simply on here saying it's not a problem for some and that those with problems want to find ways to stop them, and they will stop them one way or another.

Those in control at IFMAR will find answers, but we have to hope that the answers and changes made after all the talking and testing is done are ones that do help Modified TC at all levels not just the Worlds ISTC level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
I would say that currently the elite have a problem. I also have the solution. Let market forces bear on the manufacturers. If the speedo can't handle the load, no one will buy it. When someone makes one that can, they get my money. Simple. Same goes with motors. If a car does not handle no one will buy it. Build one that does and you will clean up. Why are we trying to re-invent the wheel when a proven solution is at hand?
I think you're right Advil, so long as the equipment doesn't go up in price to pay for improvements in performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
I am hoping that the manufactures are willing and able to step up to the problem and overcome it. If they want my money they will rise to the occasion......if not, someone else will. Simple.
Right again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by King-G
My initial concern would be people using lower turn motors to compensate for the reduced voltage, and we'll end up using 4 turn brushed, and 2 turn brushless in no time..back to square 1.
King-G, yes the same situation all over again.. is there no solution? Everyone always wants faster and lower wind modified motors.

Quote tc3team
"Want a happy medium? Try 19t...."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv
Ok. So all the "elite" drivers that are fed up with replacing their speedo/motor every heat or two should move to 19T? Works for me. Does it also work for those in 19T that want to go fast but don't move to mod because they hate losing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriiick
yeah..that way they ll "only" replace the motor every couple heats and save bundles on the ESCs !
Sounds like they really DO have problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastolfart
The electrical failure problems we are discussing here existed back in 2004. As an observer at this event, I watch the top factory teams replace speed controls for each race in fear of the potential damage from the previous run. Now the general public is now able to buy batteries of the equal to what the factory guys had 2 years ago. They are now seeing the issues that the factory racers had experienced back then.
The problems started back then, before that with the old larger ESC's with old style fets it was possible for the standard fets to be replaced with higher spec ones for the special team versions. These days with the new type fets it's not possible because the fets are so small and the best fets may be used as standard but the speedos can't be made any bigger so some are at the limit required to be reliable with the motors and batteries used today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
As a "Comparative" test I would like to see a 6/7 Turn mod run for 5 minutes with an older speed control. One of the ones that had TONS of FETS and were rated for 4-10 cells. The Novak Tempest comes to mind. I wonder how that beast would hold up to race conditions. The only reason I mention it is because it seems that ever since the Manufacturers shrank the size of speed controls the power/heat handling capabilities have been compromised. It seems like they are using fewer (higher quality) fets to do the same job.
Manufacturers did shrink them but some didn't always maintain the power/heat handling and some may have been compromised.. if size is not a problem we could have the old controllers with the latest fets, but would anyone really buy "bigger" it's usually "smaller" that sells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This would be an interesting test. Speedos don't need to be as small as they are although I understand that in the electronics field, smaller is more desirable.

I also would be willing to bet that with 4-cells, current speedos would be considered "overkill" and that you would see even smaller versions released specifically with lower voltage 4-cell use in mind. Who knows how they would hold up.
Yes Rick, you can bet there would be an advantage to be gained from smaller special 4-cell speedos.. and just how well would they hold up. We may find out one day if 4-cells get introduced into TC.
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:07 PM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!

Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.

Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.

With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.


What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.

In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.

I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.

BRAVO!!!!!

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Old 07-18-2006, 09:41 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
I know it's taboo to mention it, but I was running oval quite seriously at the time the switch to 4-cell was first mentioned. We were running on an absolutely amazing banked carpet tri-oval with drive line of about 205 feet. The banking was so high that we ran rubber capped tires on the front and foams on the back. We were FAST!!!!

Our first tries at 4-cell were much less than satisfying. The acceleration wasn't good enough, and of course, we hadn't adjusted the setups to deal with the lower weight. We gave up on the 4-cell idea.

Well, about a year later, the track was torn down because the turnouts were so low. We had been riding high with tons of racers and then the numbers started going down rapidly. The excuses were always the same.... The cars were too fast for the average racer. We had several National Champion level racers running at our track and they could handle the speed with no issues. Unfortunately, it's the average racer that keeps the doors open at the local tracks, and they weren't showing up.

With 6-cells, oval racing almost died. Moving to 4-cells saved the class and it has a very strong following now.


What I'm trying to get at.... TC is TOO FAST!!! Yes, even 27 turn is too fast. Maybe not for some of the better drivers, but for the average racer, the learning curve required to not destroy your car in the first two laps is way too steep.

In the old days, racers couldn't wait to get good enough to run modified, because stock was too slow. Let's get back to those days. Move to 4-cells and you'll have a stock class that many of today's top racers consider too slow to race in. They will either move up to 4-cell 19 or 4-cell mod. Stock class will still be there with 4-cells for the local racers and beginners. The manufacturers will redesign the cars to take advantage of the lower weight and we'll see similar speeds to what we have today. But the cars will have more controllable acceleration and the lower weight will reduce the severity of the crashes.

I personally like 4-cell because we already have 4-cell 12th scale and oval. It's easier because we already have the infrastructure and knowledge in place for a 4-cell pack. The change could go to 5-cells, but I really think it's best to make the change to 4. Battery technology is constantly improving, and if we only cut one cell, we'll be right back where we are now in just a few years and we'll be looking to make ANOTHER big change the people are afraid of.
These are good points but the issue is equipment failure, not excessive speeds. Local clubs can easily implement a Mabuchi class for beginners or those that do not want to deal with the high speeds of 6-cell stock TC racing.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:41 PM   #564
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The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.

People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.

It was said earlier, we will be different across the globe. Down under 5 cells, Japan 4, Europe what ever they choose, and the States what ever we choose.

But even scarier, will be that we will be different even in the states.
East Coast, Mid west, West Coast, South Coast all doing something different.

But what ever the choice some ppl will be mad. My only hope is that the Loud Few don’t get heard over the masses.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:47 PM   #565
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All the international santioning bodies talk to each other. If there is a change is will be world wide.

I have talked to a couple of US non ROAR race promotors. They say they have always follwed a mix of IFMAR and ROAR rules and if they go 4 cell all independant races in the US will follow.

FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:58 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.

People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
I agree
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:04 PM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
FYI, It seems like the loud few are the guys here against a change to fewer cells.
Really? It seems the loud few are some of the higher profile people on this forum (you) Although you have a bunch that agree with you, you are indeed one of the loud few.

Adrian, can you please stop ignoring my posts? Look back at my last couple posts in this thread and tell me how I am wrong. I'm challenging you to see things the way I see them in addition to the way you see them.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:07 PM   #568
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This has NOTHING to do with LiPo coming or going. If there were such a think as 5V LiPo packs I would be on my roof top shouting that they were the the best thing since sliced bread. Unfortunatly there is no such thing as 5V LiPo and running 7.4V LiPo will be just as bad as 7.2V NiMh.

As I said before LiPo is super for airplanes...I own about a dozen LiPo packs right now. The are awesome....but are they "right" for racing cars...no. LiPo has a flaw in its voltage steps. 3.7...too low...7.4 too high.
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:09 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
The way it looks to me is this is just another way to water down the talent in racing.

People cant race the current rules, so change the rules to bring the talent down to masses.
Please explain this to me...it makes no sense at all
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Old 07-18-2006, 10:17 PM   #570
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Adrian: What about my writing about compromising the handling of the cars somehow. Would you not agree that the fact that our shoe-box sized cars being able to handle speeds of 40+mph without the compromisation of handling on a track is a bit scary?

I'm not speaking for JohnMatrix but what I believe he might be getting at is your talking about DUMBING DOWN RACING.

Instead of talent/experience being a factor, it's about $$$. Going to 4-cell is not going to help that problem because our cars can handle the speed they are traveling at now. If we slow them down further, they will handle even better which takes talent out of the picture further. If we take talent out of the equasion more, then $$$ is going to matter more.
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