1LikesEvolution? Battle of the clones?
09-01-2017, 08:56 AM
#1
Evolution? Battle of the clones?
For clarity purpose: the following thread refers to 1/10 4wd electric buggies
Hi everyone!
I am considering a comeback to rc after beeing off for 25 years or so. I'll dig my old optima mid custom special from my parents place for a start and see next where the journey is leading me.
I have been surfing the web for a while on the topic now and 2 questions / considerations have come to my mind and I'd really like to have your opinions:
1. Chassiswise, what evolution has taken place in the past 25 years?
Well quite a lot has been going on: brushed engines, nimh then lipos, 2.4 ghz transmitters... Yes, but when you leave electronics apart, what improvements have been made to the car chassis itself? Ok, trannies must now be stronger to cope with brushed engines but else... Oh yes, hex and torx screws are now common but apart from that? I'm a bit puzzled. It was a giant leap from the chain driven rear engine kyosho optima to the belt driven mid engine kyosho optima mid but from the latter to -say for example- Schumacher k2 it looks like a small step (to put it nicely). Do you have that feeling too or am I overlooking something?
2. Battle of the clones?
To me it seems most 1/10 4wd electric buggies are pretty much copies of each other. The big question seems to be 'belt or shaft?', which most manufacturers have answered with 'shaft'. Serpent sdx4, Associated b64, HB d413, Kyosho lazer, Xray xb4, Carisma 4xs, team Durango dex 410, pr racing sb401, new caster sk10 pro... you name it. They all use a veeeery similar platform. Differences between them seem minor: central diff or slipper? Upper deck or not? (Ok here I am doing some injustice to the HB D413, which features really different and beefy shock mounts and suspension arms.) I guess performances are (almost) identical and rather a matter of setup, electronic choice and driver's skills. Do you think this way too or am I completely wrong?
I think in this place it would be inappropriate to refer to competition results: those champs are sponsored drivers who are paid to drive the latest products of their sponsors and to say good stuff about them in order to sell them. They certainly mustn't say something like 'I signed with <whatever brand> because they offered me the most money, the car in itself is just as fine as my previous ones and if spares were available I would do just/nearly as fine with my old <cat xls? Optima mid?>'
I apologize if my questions are somehow provocative but I do not mean to offend anyone or any brand here. I am just wondering and asking you. I am really curious to see what your views are.
Thanks and kind regards
Hi everyone!
I am considering a comeback to rc after beeing off for 25 years or so. I'll dig my old optima mid custom special from my parents place for a start and see next where the journey is leading me.
I have been surfing the web for a while on the topic now and 2 questions / considerations have come to my mind and I'd really like to have your opinions:
1. Chassiswise, what evolution has taken place in the past 25 years?
Well quite a lot has been going on: brushed engines, nimh then lipos, 2.4 ghz transmitters... Yes, but when you leave electronics apart, what improvements have been made to the car chassis itself? Ok, trannies must now be stronger to cope with brushed engines but else... Oh yes, hex and torx screws are now common but apart from that? I'm a bit puzzled. It was a giant leap from the chain driven rear engine kyosho optima to the belt driven mid engine kyosho optima mid but from the latter to -say for example- Schumacher k2 it looks like a small step (to put it nicely). Do you have that feeling too or am I overlooking something?
2. Battle of the clones?
To me it seems most 1/10 4wd electric buggies are pretty much copies of each other. The big question seems to be 'belt or shaft?', which most manufacturers have answered with 'shaft'. Serpent sdx4, Associated b64, HB d413, Kyosho lazer, Xray xb4, Carisma 4xs, team Durango dex 410, pr racing sb401, new caster sk10 pro... you name it. They all use a veeeery similar platform. Differences between them seem minor: central diff or slipper? Upper deck or not? (Ok here I am doing some injustice to the HB D413, which features really different and beefy shock mounts and suspension arms.) I guess performances are (almost) identical and rather a matter of setup, electronic choice and driver's skills. Do you think this way too or am I completely wrong?
I think in this place it would be inappropriate to refer to competition results: those champs are sponsored drivers who are paid to drive the latest products of their sponsors and to say good stuff about them in order to sell them. They certainly mustn't say something like 'I signed with <whatever brand> because they offered me the most money, the car in itself is just as fine as my previous ones and if spares were available I would do just/nearly as fine with my old <cat xls? Optima mid?>'
I apologize if my questions are somehow provocative but I do not mean to offend anyone or any brand here. I am just wondering and asking you. I am really curious to see what your views are.
Thanks and kind regards
09-01-2017, 01:34 PM
#2
They are very similar. Which is why everyone is waiting with puckered buttholes for the EB410 from Tekno to be released. IT WILL CHANGE EVERYTHING.... maybe
09-01-2017, 05:09 PM
#3
Most chassis evolution has been driven by tire and surface changes. Long arms to slow handling for higher traction surfaces that are smoother. Drivetrain hasn't really changed much. I've seen.guys break out their rear motor buggies in 2wd and run the same laptimes.
Your old optima isn't going to last, but any buggy within the last couple of generations will be competitive.
Your old optima isn't going to last, but any buggy within the last couple of generations will be competitive.
09-01-2017, 06:38 PM
#4
For clarity purpose: the following thread refers to 1/10 4wd electric buggies
Hi everyone!
I am considering a comeback to rc after beeing off for 25 years or so. I'll dig my old optima mid custom special from my parents place for a start and see next where the journey is leading me.
I have been surfing the web for a while on the topic now and 2 questions / considerations have come to my mind and I'd really like to have your opinions:
1. Chassiswise, what evolution has taken place in the past 25 years?
Well quite a lot has been going on: brushed engines, nimh then lipos, 2.4 ghz transmitters... Yes, but when you leave electronics apart, what improvements have been made to the car chassis itself? Ok, trannies must now be stronger to cope with brushed engines but else... Oh yes, hex and torx screws are now common but apart from that? I'm a bit puzzled. It was a giant leap from the chain driven rear engine kyosho optima to the belt driven mid engine kyosho optima mid but from the latter to -say for example- Schumacher k2 it looks like a small step (to put it nicely). Do you have that feeling too or am I overlooking something?
2. Battle of the clones?
To me it seems most 1/10 4wd electric buggies are pretty much copies of each other. The big question seems to be 'belt or shaft?', which most manufacturers have answered with 'shaft'. Serpent sdx4, Associated b64, HB d413, Kyosho lazer, Xray xb4, Carisma 4xs, team Durango dex 410, pr racing sb401, new caster sk10 pro... you name it. They all use a veeeery similar platform. Differences between them seem minor: central diff or slipper? Upper deck or not? (Ok here I am doing some injustice to the HB D413, which features really different and beefy shock mounts and suspension arms.) I guess performances are (almost) identical and rather a matter of setup, electronic choice and driver's skills. Do you think this way too or am I completely wrong?
I think in this place it would be inappropriate to refer to competition results: those champs are sponsored drivers who are paid to drive the latest products of their sponsors and to say good stuff about them in order to sell them. They certainly mustn't say something like 'I signed with <whatever brand> because they offered me the most money, the car in itself is just as fine as my previous ones and if spares were available I would do just/nearly as fine with my old <cat xls? Optima mid?>'
I apologize if my questions are somehow provocative but I do not mean to offend anyone or any brand here. I am just wondering and asking you. I am really curious to see what your views are.
Thanks and kind regards
Hi everyone!
I am considering a comeback to rc after beeing off for 25 years or so. I'll dig my old optima mid custom special from my parents place for a start and see next where the journey is leading me.
I have been surfing the web for a while on the topic now and 2 questions / considerations have come to my mind and I'd really like to have your opinions:
1. Chassiswise, what evolution has taken place in the past 25 years?
Well quite a lot has been going on: brushed engines, nimh then lipos, 2.4 ghz transmitters... Yes, but when you leave electronics apart, what improvements have been made to the car chassis itself? Ok, trannies must now be stronger to cope with brushed engines but else... Oh yes, hex and torx screws are now common but apart from that? I'm a bit puzzled. It was a giant leap from the chain driven rear engine kyosho optima to the belt driven mid engine kyosho optima mid but from the latter to -say for example- Schumacher k2 it looks like a small step (to put it nicely). Do you have that feeling too or am I overlooking something?
2. Battle of the clones?
To me it seems most 1/10 4wd electric buggies are pretty much copies of each other. The big question seems to be 'belt or shaft?', which most manufacturers have answered with 'shaft'. Serpent sdx4, Associated b64, HB d413, Kyosho lazer, Xray xb4, Carisma 4xs, team Durango dex 410, pr racing sb401, new caster sk10 pro... you name it. They all use a veeeery similar platform. Differences between them seem minor: central diff or slipper? Upper deck or not? (Ok here I am doing some injustice to the HB D413, which features really different and beefy shock mounts and suspension arms.) I guess performances are (almost) identical and rather a matter of setup, electronic choice and driver's skills. Do you think this way too or am I completely wrong?
I think in this place it would be inappropriate to refer to competition results: those champs are sponsored drivers who are paid to drive the latest products of their sponsors and to say good stuff about them in order to sell them. They certainly mustn't say something like 'I signed with <whatever brand> because they offered me the most money, the car in itself is just as fine as my previous ones and if spares were available I would do just/nearly as fine with my old <cat xls? Optima mid?>'
I apologize if my questions are somehow provocative but I do not mean to offend anyone or any brand here. I am just wondering and asking you. I am really curious to see what your views are.
Thanks and kind regards
09-01-2017, 06:50 PM
#5
I stopped racing 2003 then returned last year. I raced 1/10 nitro gas truck and nitro on road touring cars....moved up to racing 1/8 buggies and 1/8 on road ...then killed my interest because i was spending too much for $700 .21 engines to be competitive. Fast forward. The best off road 2wd electric buggy right now is the kyosho rb6.6 .... b6 is a jack of all trade....then for 4wd..its the xray xb4.
I also have the xb4 and find it to be one of the best I've owned.
See everyone at SCVRC tomorrow!
09-04-2017, 10:21 AM
#6
09-05-2017, 09:09 PM
#8
Tech Adept
Speaking 4wd only and let say in the last ten years I think 4wd design did a huge step forward.
Lots of cars were dialed but very fragile considering the power of brushless meaning you crash you broke.
Durango changed that, the car was easy to service, very durable with gears diffs.
Next was the XB4, refined years after years since 2013, a very good car even better since 2016.
The car is fast and agile but even more so very durable so you can drive it hard. You will break a front arm in a big crash and bend one pin that's about it.
Off course lots of poeple seems to follow a singular design either 2wd or 4wd (lay down/XB4-Bmax) but I think someone find a better design for the power and tracks conditions of today for each of these cars and everyone else tried to catch up.
Lots of cars were dialed but very fragile considering the power of brushless meaning you crash you broke.
Durango changed that, the car was easy to service, very durable with gears diffs.
Next was the XB4, refined years after years since 2013, a very good car even better since 2016.
The car is fast and agile but even more so very durable so you can drive it hard. You will break a front arm in a big crash and bend one pin that's about it.
Off course lots of poeple seems to follow a singular design either 2wd or 4wd (lay down/XB4-Bmax) but I think someone find a better design for the power and tracks conditions of today for each of these cars and everyone else tried to catch up.
09-06-2017, 06:47 AM
#9
Funny: part of the text could be from me. Basically Tekno claim there has not been much evolution in the last 10-20 years for 4wd buggies 1/10. So they jump on that and claim they're going to change this.
Now I am curious whether they can back up their claim.
09-06-2017, 07:55 AM
#10
I had a look at the eb410 and landed on their blog. I can't post the link though.
Funny: part of the text could be from me. Basically Tekno claim there has not been much evolution in the last 10-20 years for 4wd buggies 1/10. So they jump on that and claim they're going to change this.
Now I am curious whether they can back up their claim.
Funny: part of the text could be from me. Basically Tekno claim there has not been much evolution in the last 10-20 years for 4wd buggies 1/10. So they jump on that and claim they're going to change this.
Now I am curious whether they can back up their claim.
http://www.blog.teknorc.com/2017/09/...sign-part-two/
09-06-2017, 10:42 AM
#12
Tech Addict
Speaking 4wd only and let say in the last ten years I think 4wd design did a huge step forward.
Lots of cars were dialed but very fragile considering the power of brushless meaning you crash you broke.
Durango changed that, the car was easy to service, very durable with gears diffs.
Next was the XB4, refined years after years since 2013, a very good car even better since 2016.
The car is fast and agile but even more so very durable so you can drive it hard. You will break a front arm in a big crash and bend one pin that's about it.
Off course lots of poeple seems to follow a singular design either 2wd or 4wd (lay down/XB4-Bmax) but I think someone find a better design for the power and tracks conditions of today for each of these cars and everyone else tried to catch up.
Lots of cars were dialed but very fragile considering the power of brushless meaning you crash you broke.
Durango changed that, the car was easy to service, very durable with gears diffs.
Next was the XB4, refined years after years since 2013, a very good car even better since 2016.
The car is fast and agile but even more so very durable so you can drive it hard. You will break a front arm in a big crash and bend one pin that's about it.
Off course lots of poeple seems to follow a singular design either 2wd or 4wd (lay down/XB4-Bmax) but I think someone find a better design for the power and tracks conditions of today for each of these cars and everyone else tried to catch up.
Most evolutions, after the yokomo yz-10 in the early '90, was the Durango Dex410 in 2009 in my eyes!
There are not realy bad wheelers on the market right now, i think, it's all personal feeling, one car fits this person and the next person sayes, it handles like sh...!
I think, you can make any popular/modern 4WD car make drive good and competitiv, if you have the right and fiting set up for you on it!
I know a person, that overlaps others with their newest and mostly over hop uped wheeler, with his old b44.1, because he know his car and he does have the right set up on it, for any kind of track...
Best thing would be, if you have the possibility at a track, to test others car, so you can deside, what fits your driving stile and what car not!?
Just my 2 cents
09-06-2017, 11:14 PM
#13
Hi Noel02!
Well I had a look at the eb410 and it's not a leap forward in my opinion: conventional shaft drive but almost parallel to the chassis, 13 mm big bore shock absorbers (instead of 12 mm: does it take much brain power to come up with that? What's next? 13,5 mm then 14, 15 and then back to smaller shocks to save weight?), suspension arms inspired from the HB d413... The only thing that seems different is that the weight distribution is more to the front (I saw it somewhere else).
I'm not saying it's bad, it just seems only a slightly improved copy if the usual platform. But we can say more when we see under the body.
Well I had a look at the eb410 and it's not a leap forward in my opinion: conventional shaft drive but almost parallel to the chassis, 13 mm big bore shock absorbers (instead of 12 mm: does it take much brain power to come up with that? What's next? 13,5 mm then 14, 15 and then back to smaller shocks to save weight?), suspension arms inspired from the HB d413... The only thing that seems different is that the weight distribution is more to the front (I saw it somewhere else).
I'm not saying it's bad, it just seems only a slightly improved copy if the usual platform. But we can say more when we see under the body.
09-07-2017, 09:29 AM
#14
Tech Rookie
Unfortunately we are pretty much at the limits of technology now.
What else really could be done to make a leap and not just a small step better? Mount the motor vertically? Nope CG is too high then. Put it on the front of the car and have all the batteries and ESC in the back to try to balance the car? Dumb idea if you ask me.
To me the only true leap forward would be to put the motors on the wheels like quadcopters but that adds cost and over-complexity to the esc's with possible need for a gyro or exceptionally balanced motors so each is within .1rpm or less of each other.
What else really could be done to make a leap and not just a small step better? Mount the motor vertically? Nope CG is too high then. Put it on the front of the car and have all the batteries and ESC in the back to try to balance the car? Dumb idea if you ask me.
To me the only true leap forward would be to put the motors on the wheels like quadcopters but that adds cost and over-complexity to the esc's with possible need for a gyro or exceptionally balanced motors so each is within .1rpm or less of each other.
09-07-2017, 09:54 AM
#15
Not trying to get too hung up on the wording being used, but are we talking about 'evolution' or 'revolution?' The OP is saying is everything a clone or is there progress (evolution)? I think Tekno has some nice ideas that are showing a nice tweak on what is offered by other brands, that is evolution. A complete radical design might not happen right now, by anyone, but I still think small tweaks and progress is being made to the cars with each generation. While it may not be ground-breaking, there is usually at least 1 small change or feature to each new vehicle that makes people want that newest edition. Check out the 'Racer's Rant' thread and you have guys claiming they can't win without the newest buggy. I am not saying I agree with that either, but obviously there is enough change when a new model comes out, that keep people interested enough to buy the newest model.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
