ROAR blinky rule for 2012?
12-07-2011, 07:42 PM
#61
I think perhaps a lot of people here are missing the point. I dont think its about the cost, its the user experience. To be able to easily set blinky mode on the speed control directly without the use of extra interfaces is just easy and simple. And thats not to say you cant still have an interface option to do stuff like update the firmware. Its important to listen to race organizers but more critical to make sure the user experience is not sacrificed.
12-07-2011, 07:47 PM
#62
Exactly my point!! Thank you for posting this. This is what is needed to keep a "stock" class going. Unfortunately, this is the only way that all the cheating, modding, or whatever goes on in stock would stop. Everyone runs the same speed control, and motor. NO Exceptions.
Otherwise, just make it a Run what ya brung class, and have at it. This option would help vehicle counts at some smaller local events as well. For most of the indoor tracks, you really cannot tell a difference between stock and mod 2wd anyway, except for those places that make you run stock tires.
Otherwise, just make it a Run what ya brung class, and have at it. This option would help vehicle counts at some smaller local events as well. For most of the indoor tracks, you really cannot tell a difference between stock and mod 2wd anyway, except for those places that make you run stock tires.
12-08-2011, 04:11 AM
#64
Tech Apprentice
I agree, that is my point. If everyone runs the same speed control and motor, then there is no opportunity to cheat. Sure, there are those who will change out rotors in the motor and the like, but that is usually pretty easy to see. The biggest problem here is the lack of tech, or no tech at all. At least in Nascar they tech the cars several times throughout the weekend. Nascar also mandates like 95% of all the parts that teams are allowed to use, which would essentially be the same as mandating the ESC and motor.
12-08-2011, 04:49 AM
#65
Programming
Here is the problem with any esc that you program with a computer, the only computer engineers/programmers do not just work for the manufacturer of esc's. It is all to easy for a computer engineer/programmer to make it look stock with lights but be anything but stock. Heck they could make it look stock to be checked with the hotwire to everyone but perhaps the maker of the esc that might recognize a different line of code. By allowing esc's that do not hook up to a computer to be adjusted you solve the problem of people gaining two to three laps in a week. Our club has said no to the tekin in our stock class to save time, hassle and questionable results. No means no to the computer adjustable speed controls for the stock class.
There are always people that don't care about ethics and would sell there own children to win a $10 trophy.
There are always people that don't care about ethics and would sell there own children to win a $10 trophy.
12-08-2011, 05:46 AM
#66
We all drive $1000+ racing vehicles and we're complaining about a $30 USB interface? Really?
Here's my side of the story:
Our local track runs mostly stock because it's too small for mod to be a benefit. Fine and dandy, but I went to my first big national event last year (Columbus) and even though I had 3 perfect heats within .4 seconds of each other, I still only qualified 22nd out of 55 cars. Between my ESC (which didn't have boost options) and my motor (which could only go up to 15 degrees of timing), I was at a pretty big power disadvantage versus the guys running 60 degrees of motor timing and boost through the roof. Tebo, Cav and the top guys in mod buggy were running 21.0's - the fastest stock buggy time I saw all weekend was 21.9, and a heat time that would have put him high in the B-main for mod buggy. Oh, and this was a high-speed, super fast track where RPM and power did make a difference. After that race, I vowed to never run stock again anywhere other than my local track, where we pretty much have to.
With this new update, and maybe mandating a locked motor like Trinity/Epic has come out with, stock racing MAY become fun again, and with good batteries at a decent price, it may actually make things more fair than we've seen in a long time.
Here's my side of the story:
Our local track runs mostly stock because it's too small for mod to be a benefit. Fine and dandy, but I went to my first big national event last year (Columbus) and even though I had 3 perfect heats within .4 seconds of each other, I still only qualified 22nd out of 55 cars. Between my ESC (which didn't have boost options) and my motor (which could only go up to 15 degrees of timing), I was at a pretty big power disadvantage versus the guys running 60 degrees of motor timing and boost through the roof. Tebo, Cav and the top guys in mod buggy were running 21.0's - the fastest stock buggy time I saw all weekend was 21.9, and a heat time that would have put him high in the B-main for mod buggy. Oh, and this was a high-speed, super fast track where RPM and power did make a difference. After that race, I vowed to never run stock again anywhere other than my local track, where we pretty much have to.
With this new update, and maybe mandating a locked motor like Trinity/Epic has come out with, stock racing MAY become fun again, and with good batteries at a decent price, it may actually make things more fair than we've seen in a long time.
Here is the problem with any esc that you program with a computer, the only computer engineers/programmers do not just work for the manufacturer of esc's. It is all to easy for a computer engineer/programmer to make it look stock with lights but be anything but stock. Heck they could make it look stock to be checked with the hotwire to everyone but perhaps the maker of the esc that might recognize a different line of code. By allowing esc's that do not hook up to a computer to be adjusted you solve the problem of people gaining two to three laps in a week. Our club has said no to the tekin in our stock class to save time, hassle and questionable results. No means no to the computer adjustable speed controls for the stock class.
There are always people that don't care about ethics and would sell there own children to win a $10 trophy.
There are always people that don't care about ethics and would sell there own children to win a $10 trophy.
I'd love to see every track, at every level have a totally true stock class. Something that makes it totally set-up and driving skill. I used to race bolink legends, imo, it was as close to true stock I'd ever seen. But there was guys cheating at that too. From lighting hubs and adding bearings to center drilling the axle, and rewelding the ends, to reduce weight. To zapping and trying to relabel batteries.
I guess it really comes down to, if someone wants to win bad enough, they will find a way to cheat the system.
12-08-2011, 07:45 AM
#67
Some may be making more of this than there is. There are no proposed changes that we are aware of other than class choices. We have already been running No boost stock classes at ROAR events. This news is not really about how we deal with Spec classes, it is that there will only be Spec Stock classes or Mod. We already have a definition of Spec Mode and all esc's currently on the ROAR approved list appear to perform equal and should continue to be allowed.
Remember that part of ROAR’s mission is produce drivers to represent us at the worlds in Mod classes. Another part is to help RC grow and get new people involved which is the purpose of stock class. Club racing is the farm teams where we do what ever we want to have fun.
Most tracks will continue to run some boosted classes because they still make sense in many cases. In club racing the middle classes are where the Mod drivers and the Stock drivers come together. For the broader racing community there is still a need for mild mod classes. Who can deny the advantages of being able to run in 2 classes with the same car. We think it is a good way to develop mod racers and give stock drivers a taste of some higher speeds without having to buy any new equipment.
So nothing is expected to change other than class choices and going to a 21.5 for stock in some onroad classes. We are also not aware of any proposed changes to the motor rules for 2012.
For those that want ROAR to limit everyone to a single ESC, or a short list of low end products I think you should think it thru further and consider how that may effect most club racers choice to attend a ROAR event. ROAR events are already often poorly attended and putting them on an island of special equipment required will not help. They are also hurting for manufacturer support and sponsorship and this will not help that either. If you want to have somewhere to race you better let enough people be involved to make it work.
The Spec mode lockout is simply a feature and we do not expect ROAR to require it. Any other discussions about the other advantages in our new software version should probably happen somewhere else.
Remember that part of ROAR’s mission is produce drivers to represent us at the worlds in Mod classes. Another part is to help RC grow and get new people involved which is the purpose of stock class. Club racing is the farm teams where we do what ever we want to have fun.
Most tracks will continue to run some boosted classes because they still make sense in many cases. In club racing the middle classes are where the Mod drivers and the Stock drivers come together. For the broader racing community there is still a need for mild mod classes. Who can deny the advantages of being able to run in 2 classes with the same car. We think it is a good way to develop mod racers and give stock drivers a taste of some higher speeds without having to buy any new equipment.
So nothing is expected to change other than class choices and going to a 21.5 for stock in some onroad classes. We are also not aware of any proposed changes to the motor rules for 2012.
For those that want ROAR to limit everyone to a single ESC, or a short list of low end products I think you should think it thru further and consider how that may effect most club racers choice to attend a ROAR event. ROAR events are already often poorly attended and putting them on an island of special equipment required will not help. They are also hurting for manufacturer support and sponsorship and this will not help that either. If you want to have somewhere to race you better let enough people be involved to make it work.
The Spec mode lockout is simply a feature and we do not expect ROAR to require it. Any other discussions about the other advantages in our new software version should probably happen somewhere else.
12-08-2011, 12:38 PM
#68
Ernie was right.
***
Anyhow, trying to find a competitive advantage is human nature. Limiting electronic advance is great, however this will only intensify focus in other areas.
The first one that comes to mind is battery voltage. Perhaps a second 'blinky' option (or lighting sequence) to designate an 'at or below' input voltage would be useful for this(?).
My next thought is mechanical timing via the sensor array. There is already, at least, one solution in place with a fixed-position harness. Unless it is already, though I could not find anything in the 2010 rulebook, I see this becoming the norm.
There would still be some areas in regards to magentic realignment of the rotor and possible pickup sensitivity of the sensors. I am sure these issues will sort themselves.
Overall, I applaud the responsiveness of the manufacturers and think it very encouraging to see them communicating on forums such as RCTech.
***
Anyhow, trying to find a competitive advantage is human nature. Limiting electronic advance is great, however this will only intensify focus in other areas.
The first one that comes to mind is battery voltage. Perhaps a second 'blinky' option (or lighting sequence) to designate an 'at or below' input voltage would be useful for this(?).
My next thought is mechanical timing via the sensor array. There is already, at least, one solution in place with a fixed-position harness. Unless it is already, though I could not find anything in the 2010 rulebook, I see this becoming the norm.
There would still be some areas in regards to magentic realignment of the rotor and possible pickup sensitivity of the sensors. I am sure these issues will sort themselves.
Overall, I applaud the responsiveness of the manufacturers and think it very encouraging to see them communicating on forums such as RCTech.
just plain silly.
12-08-2011, 12:52 PM
#70
Ernie was right.
***
Anyhow, trying to find a competitive advantage is human nature. Limiting electronic advance is great, however this will only intensify focus in other areas.
The first one that comes to mind is battery voltage. Perhaps a second 'blinky' option (or lighting sequence) to designate an 'at or below' input voltage would be useful for this(?).
My next thought is mechanical timing via the sensor array. There is already, at least, one solution in place with a fixed-position harness. Unless it is already, though I could not find anything in the 2010 rulebook, I see this becoming the norm.
There would still be some areas in regards to magentic realignment of the rotor and possible pickup sensitivity of the sensors. I am sure these issues will sort themselves.
Overall, I applaud the responsiveness of the manufacturers and think it very encouraging to see them communicating on forums such as RCTech.
***
Anyhow, trying to find a competitive advantage is human nature. Limiting electronic advance is great, however this will only intensify focus in other areas.
The first one that comes to mind is battery voltage. Perhaps a second 'blinky' option (or lighting sequence) to designate an 'at or below' input voltage would be useful for this(?).
My next thought is mechanical timing via the sensor array. There is already, at least, one solution in place with a fixed-position harness. Unless it is already, though I could not find anything in the 2010 rulebook, I see this becoming the norm.
There would still be some areas in regards to magentic realignment of the rotor and possible pickup sensitivity of the sensors. I am sure these issues will sort themselves.
Overall, I applaud the responsiveness of the manufacturers and think it very encouraging to see them communicating on forums such as RCTech.
The Monster Locked motors feature a totally locked design that does not allow for mechanical endbell timing - personally I'm appalled that this hasn't taken off like it did back in the brushed days. It's got all of the "tell tale" features that it's legal - longer rotor shaft that sticks out the end, signifying can design, etc.
12-08-2011, 01:48 PM
#72
Tech Elite
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12-08-2011, 01:49 PM
#73
Since our track looked at the cans to make sure the tabs hadn't been touched, you'd have to be REALLY good to not leave any marks to show otherwise. They looked to make sure you had no bearings as well. Trinity had brushed that could advance the timing 6 degrees. Aside from that if you are referring to using pliers to grab the commutator and slightly twist it to change the timing, isn't that called cheating? You could always try to zap the magnets too. The whole point of rules is to even the playing field. It's usually not the cheaters who win anyways but it is almost always the cheaters who complain the most about the rules.
12-08-2011, 02:16 PM
#74
Since our track looked at the cans to make sure the tabs hadn't been touched, you'd have to be REALLY good to not leave any marks to show otherwise. They looked to make sure you had no bearings as well. Trinity had brushed that could advance the timing 6 degrees. Aside from that if you are referring to using pliers to grab the commutator and slightly twist it to change the timing, isn't that called cheating? You could always try to zap the magnets too. The whole point of rules is to even the playing field. It's usually not the cheaters who win anyways but it is almost always the cheaters who complain the most about the rules.
12-08-2011, 02:28 PM
#75
Yeah I didn't say it was. I didn't have enough money back then to do anything other than show up and hope I didn't break anything so cheating was out of the question!