Chickentrader

iTrader: (13)

Calm down Shane! Don't blame me for a disagreement of between you and Martin about the dates. The meeting was scheduled back in early December, and you had plenty of time to your date right before last Friday. What's the big deal about not being able to confirm it anyway? Other clubs have changed their dates at times without this amount of drama.

Kindest regards,
Lars.

Chickentrader

iTrader: (13)

I'm not sure if all are aware that overall points don't accumulate. The system of final points that each club walk away with from each round that is in place, has not been changed, and the top club still scores 10 points from the round, then 8, 6, 5, 4 and so on for the rest of the clubs. 2009 scoring system is at http://www.actionrc.com.au/?page_id=1390 .

Look guys; I am one those primarily responsible for the concept of changing the points scoring system. The system agreed to by the reps however, is different to the one proposed by my club, because of modifications to it at the Interclub reps meeting. The proposal was designed to stop the (as I see it) disappointing practice of filling classes that had less than 10 entries (e.g. Modified and 540 classes at some Interclub meetings), with club members that would have rather been in something else, just to score club points. My club has more than once engineered entries to get more points; and I refuse to believe that it has not also taken place elsewhere. I could have scored points for my club in Modified last year at one meeting, by simply entering the class doing one lap! Then those who just wanted to participate to make the event great, and stayed in the class where they usually race get nothing. There have also been examples of bad sportsmanship (again as I see it) by drivers choosing not to participate in the lower finals, because the driver couldn’t make the A.

It was never designed to disadvantage a smaller club. I am a member of one of the two smallest clubs in the competition with only one driver challenging the very top last year, and the proposal was simply put to recognise how hard it is to get into an A final in a class with 30 drivers, like we had in Pro Tourers at SCRCCC last year, disregarding the disadvantage of this to my club, to encourage all members of every club to contribute to the event, and to stay and participate in the lower finals. And there was never any conspiracy to disadvantage a club. It does however give clubs with more gas drivers a better chance; lets not forget that there are 4 Electric classes to score points in and only 2 gas classes, but the number of Electric and Gas drivers amongst all clubs in the competition is probably close to equal.

At the end of the day; bigger clubs will always have an advantage regardless of the system, and the end result will probably be the 10. 8 and 6 points the top clubs score changing between Brendale, Logan, and Wynnum, with my club scoring a measly 5 points at most rounds. The 3 best drivers in each class will still get their well deserved trophy, just like before, and I don’t believe that their contribution should be looked at as any lesser because how points are scored.

To add 5 points to A finalists was not part of the proposal from my club, and nor was it to still award 10 point and down if the class doesn’t get 10 entries, but that is what has been decided on.

It would be good to see all drivers that has a point to make about this to join a debate about it on this forum; the system is open to change for the 2011 Interclub, and all clubs will have chance to refine the system again at the end of this year.

Kindest regards,
Lars.

P.S. No hate mail please, the proposal was conceived in good faith, and agreed on at the meeting.

Sherif

iTrader: (3)

Lars,
Where was this proposal before the meeting on a point score change?, how come was it that 3 clubs knew about it before hand and not the others as I can sort of work out,
this new point score will help the club that fills one class with the most entries,
To me it's totally unfair if you win a class that has only 10-12 entries verse class that has 30 entries, so this means that the 30 entries class is worth more points and gives that club a bigger advantage to the overal win. A win is a win and should be worth the same amount

what I cant under stand is that old system has worked now for 5 years with out a problem and has been very fair and very close between clubs, but not anymore...

All I can say is to the 3 clubs that conspired to this new point score is
SHAME SHAME SHAME

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

A point system where everyone who races, gets points, does not seem like a bad thing on the surface.

There is a suggestion that this unfairly gives advantage to bigger classes, but if you look at the options, any other would/does perhaps push racers into classes they don't want to run, or likely take away some of the joy to anyone less than A grade, who wants to feel like they are scoring something for their club.

Besides, with Nitro having 2 classes? run at interclub, and electric 4?, surely some of the worries about points spread should balance out over a round/rounds.
Not having sat down looking at all previous results, to 'me' it looks like the old system would favor electric, more classes meaning more points up for grabs, even with far less numbers overall in those classes.

As to smaller clubs being less able to place, well surely that is just the nature of anything?, if you rock up to the Olympic games from a country who has a population numbered in the thousands, do you seriously expect to win in the overall medal tally at the end?.


My final thought is, well if a class is popular enough to get big numbers 'wanting' to race in it, surely it's more than fair that it take out the most points at any given round?.
I mean after all, big numbers 'will' make it the premiere class in Brisbane/Qld etc, and surely the most popular/premiere single class deserves to pull the most points?.
(And by all means speak up and say why if you think otherwise).

But if you do think otherwise, then you already were supporting a points handicapping system, skewing results in favor of less popular classes, so really you perhaps race/support something you think is more worthy of a better points spread, and while there is nothing wrong with that, it's still asking to be rated at more than your classes worth on a local ranking scale.

Sherif

iTrader: (3)

Here is the system as I take it now
30 entries to 1 class equal = 465 points on offer with out 55 bonus points for A main
20 entries to A class equal = 210 points on offer with out bonus points for A main
10 entries to A class equal = 55 points on offer with out bonus points for A main

so as it stands now the club that brings the most amounts of soldiers wins the war, I can under stand how and where Gas clubs feel ripped off from the previous points system,
but hey get some off them to try racing the electric classes to pick up extra points, I know Logan have had electric guys run gas at interclubs to help out so why not the same, Sunny coast had heaps of there gas drivers run electric at last years Qld's to make up numbers in classes, so why not at interclubs?

If you want to change so B finalist hang round try making it 15 points for 1st down 6 points for 10th, then the top 5 in B final fight for the remainder points to include them?
Just an Idea that I think is better

Newbie007

Some of you guys seriously have to pull your heads in.

You are not a good advertisment for the hobby at all.

Try re-reading your post before you submit. Some of you come accross very aggressive and intimidating.

I have been on these forums for a bit but am still new to the hobby and looking to join a club. Just by reading some post from so called leaders of clubs I have decided not to join that club even thogh it is only 5 minutes from where I live.

So take a chill pill and if you really need to bite somebody's head off do it in person or at least in a place where the whole world does not see and you might see your club numbers increase.

When it comes down to it 99.99% of us are here for fun.

my 2 cents

sorry to change subject.

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

So lets look at two sets of numbers from last year...

Bayside Interclub 2009...
540 - 12
Stock - 22
SS - 14
Mod - 7

Gas - 19
Pro - 22

Brendale Interclub 2009...
540 - 14
Stock - 21
SS - 9
Mod - 9

Gas - 28
Pro - 31


So like 55 electric vs 41 nitro guys at Bayside, and 53 electric vs 59 nitro at Brendale, take into account the bonus A main points, and it's looking like a 'fair' points spread across classes to me, if not maybe the electric guys still holding some points advantage with the bonus points.

The new points system does seem to encourage clubs to bring as many members as possible (I thought that was the point?), but then at the same time with the points spread more fairly, it should require less cross class running 'just' to get points, anyone should be able to run their chosen class, and bring home valuable points for their club, regardless of what class that is.

Home track advantage will still play a part, as will what is popular at that club running that event, I see room for any club to do well with the new points system, what I still can't see is what may be unfair about any of it, if someone wants to further punch those numbers from 2009, and show where any club is now put at a large disadvantage, I'm keen to see it.

Some guys will always run both types of class, and for that matter multiple in each, but many of us just don't have or want more than one car, any point system that requires less people to have less cars is possibly a very good thing.

bender

iTrader: (4)

Exactly

I thought that was the whole idea of the Interclub series - to have a series that focuses on club unity, participation, and achievement, rather than an individuals performance.

The reason why the Logan club has been so successful in the Interclub is that they have shown more team spirit in getting as many drivers as possible to all rounds, not just their own.

It is very likely that the new points system will make the Logan club even more difficult to beat, but if they are the club putting in the most effort, with regards to attendance, then surely they deserve the most rewards too.

(Totally unbiased opinion as I am not a member of Logan club)

RC Tragic

iTrader: (2)

Thank you Jason for pointing out the obvious.

It seems there are some who view this as a Gas vs. Electric competition, they need to have a look at what the series is all about, as you say "Club Spirit" . Get that right & then overall success will follow.

We try hard to keep the fun in our racing & it works well.

Regards
Martin Nichols
LCRCCC

Sherif

iTrader: (3)

Ok under the new system this is how the points would go for last years series on your 2 selected rounds, as you can see, from just the few extra people turning up in gas numbers from bayside to brendale round it's 459 more points up for grabs, is that fair to smaller clubs wanting to attend. The more people from a club that attend and race one class will up numbers in that class even if they would be lucky to make B or C final that in turn will up the values off the A Main points in turn making the points score blow out

Yes Logan have been dominate in the last few years winning, but we have busted our sacks to get our racers to all rounds and shown pride in our club, if other clubs did the same then it might off been different story.

The idea of the series was to get more clubs to travel to these events and compete, but seems to me the only people that travelled in numbers to all rounds was the same old few

Chickentrader

iTrader: (13)

Johnny!
To the first point - The proposal was put forward to my club committee by me. I never consulted with anyone of any other club; there were only talks between myself and some other club members. I don’t participate in lobbying between the Interclub reps, but it probably goes on every time someone wants a change; rightly or wrongly in all areas of interest that are run in a democratic way. Whoever wants support for a concept, goes to those that are most likely to give support, and thus build up momentum, before bringing it forward.

To the second point – Bigger numbers will usually make the competition stronger, and I believe that those that manage to get amongst the top have earned more points for their club in tougher competition. The win is still a win regardless of the numbers and the podium positions will still get the same trophies that they would under the old system. No-one can take the points with them from any round, as a club can only still score a maximum of 10 points, and the focus shouldn’t be on that. Think of it as a bottom up system where the last placing gets 1 point and scores moving upwards from that.

To the third point –The old system was far from accepted as fair by all and was due for some reform, it encouraged clubs to engineer entries to fill classes with small numbers, did not do enough to encourage all members of every club to contribute to the event, and to stay and participate in the lower finals. And the fact that gas drivers were competing for 110 points in only 2 classes, while a similar number of electric drivers had 220 points that they could collect from 4 classes was not regarded as fair in the feedback that I had about the points. There are still 20 more points available in Electric than in gas, so the system is still skewed in favour of electric drivers, but it at least goes some way to address the disparity.

And in response to your next post; no Sunny Coast gas driver that took part in the ORRCA Electric Titles last year did it just to make up numbers. I know them all, and they did it because that they love racing at big events, and I expect the same this year. I sincerely hope that we will see much more of that spirit in this year’s and future titles.

Now; all this kind of looks like an attack on you; Johnny, but it is far from meant to be. It is only meant to clarify what the intentions with it are, particularly in regards to the concerns that you have raised. I do respect your opinions and criticism, and I kind of expected a little resistance from some of the electric guys. I am not kind that lies down and accepts anything and everything without trying to address it, but I had no idea of whether the reforms would be accepted by my club when I proposed it. It was also accepted by your club according to a previous post by Shane, so it appears that most of the Interclub reps saw merits in it. The issue of more points for smaller clubs is too hard for me, and I do not believe that it is possible to come up with a system that is seemed as fair which addresses that problem. You will probably find that most of those that criticises the concept, will be those that come from a club with a very small number of gas drivers, as it probably rewards the clubs that have a healthy number of both electric and gas drivers.

At last; I would suggest that anyone that can come up with a points scoring system that addresses the issue of encouraging bigger participation, acknowledges that it is much tougher in big numbers of entries, encourages drivers to participation in lower finals, discourages clubs from engineering the entries just to get points, and is fair to clubs with a majority of either electric or gas drivers; do what I did, bring it to your club committee and see if they accept it, and then see if the rest of the clubs also will.

Kindest regards,
Lars.

Sherif

iTrader: (3)

Lars,

Please have a look at your fantastic points score system in my post above your nice reply to me.

If you can honestly look at the points from Baysides round to Brendales round and see how the few extra numbers in each class adds so many extra points is fair,
I will give the game away
I am not abjecting because I'm an electric driver I'm objecting on how the club with the most people in a class will win, blind Freedy could see it.

Chickentrader

iTrader: (13)

Thanks for the reprimand; Blind Freddie is my second name. I take back the comment that electric drivers would most be the most likely to disagree with the reforms. The points that you are referring would have been well earned points in my belief, and available to any club who have members that are willing participate. You obviously don't agree, and the system is open for more reforms next year, if you come up with a better system.

I have probably said all that I want to now; and will distance myself from this debate now. More input into it from others would be interesting however.

Kindest regards,
Lars.

blis

Sherif, last time I checked, the majority of Brendale racers were 1:8 racers and 1:5. We have very few 1:10 EP left racing most of which are racing at other clubs now. Also a small handful of Pro tourers and the rest race whatever they want on our novice nights to make for a RC development night. Not sure why QRCCRA seems to get focus... So take away two QRCCRA drivers no longer in the points.

As a dad, I'm excluding my sons from this mindset of "winning" is the most important aspect of RC... Hope to see you all at the QLD state titles.

PS: Sherif, this isnt directed at you.. It's directed at the "WIN" issue, I just quoted the last post which happened to be yours.

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

A few?, surely you jest?.

Your 'few' is near 20 drivers (if you can round down 15+, I can round up a few), and lets put that into perspective for a second...

This is "Brendale", the original nitro core of Queensland on-road racing, I think I can safely say the vast majority of members own at least one fuel powered rc car.
So yeah, with any even remotely 'fair' spread of points, nitro 'will' dominate at Brendale, because it's predominantly a nitro track, with most members running something that runs on liquid fuel.

Saying it's unfair for Brendale to win it's own meet based on nitro numbers, is like saying any other club is not able to win, based on what is popular being run at their own track.

We are looking at a part reversal of a system that seemed stacked in electric favor, yeah it's going to run in favor of nitro at Brendale, but it's not fair to try and shoot down the system based on that, I'd have posted numbers from other rounds, but I could not find them.

End of the day, clubs like Logan who can bring big numbers will likely still win overall, just maybe not quite as easily as previously if they don't have the nitro numbers at some tracks, you say more nitro guys should go electric, well the same is just as true the other way round, if you don't want a white wash of nitro come March, get more of the electric guys into Gas and Pro.