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Old 03-13-2018, 08:15 PM
  #1936  
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Originally Posted by Nerobro View Post
I'm liking the discussion that's being had here..

There's a lot to be said about clearly communicating what classes are what. With clearly (not publicly editable) rules. Maybe even suggesting what classes are there for. Perhaps a page on the website with that information up there.

Euro Truck - A light hearted, cheap, pure test of driver skill
VTA - Low horsepower, classic bodies, and corner speed.
USGT - More power, modern bodies, more chassis.
17.5 TC - Big speed, Big crashes, blinding lap times.

I've only driven three kinds of touring car, so i can't really say much about how big of a driving difference there is going up step by step. I know there's a solid leap from Euro Truck to VTA, and again from VTA to USGT. Enough that it requires a bit of a re-calibration of my head between classes.

I like USGT versus 21.5 TC, because it feels like a good middle ground between 17.5tc and VTA. Still a blinky class, but with easily identified bodies. 17.5, 21.5, and Mod all having the same bodies doesn't make for a very interesting show from the sidelines.

I still feel it's important for cars to be easily identified from 20-30' away, and know what class they are.

These are reasons why I like the common pan car classes at WCRC. They're real easy to spot. WGT-R, GT-LM, and F1 are all distinctive, and you're not likely to mistake them.
I run a TC class mainly to have a second and reliable class. I've fallen on VTA simply because it's the best participation. I've only recently gotten back in so some of these classes are new to me, but it seems like there's some bigtime redundancy. WGT-R, WGT, GT-LM, F1 along with two 21.5 classes, 17.5 and a 25.5/VTA all competing for drivers and existing at the same time just feels like the same mistakes from 10 years ago being repeated again. The major problem back then was too many class and motor choices. People couldn't come to a consensus on if 13.5 or 17.5 (or even 21.5) should be stock, and some people were still hanging onto foam tire classes.

The healthiest this hobby has ever been was when there were two choices of what to run for on-road; 1/12th mod and 1/12th stock. People had a clear direction on what kind of car to buy, and a clear direction for progression and getting better. Sadly, we're not going back to those days.

A lot of what's popular is up to race directors and hobby shop owners, it's also important they try and eliminate redundancies in classes, promote classes, and steer people towards a class that won't leave them feeling like they wasted money on a dead or sporadically run class. It also helps to have someone actively promoting and pushing guys to bring certain cars out.

Is there really that much difference between 21.5 and USGT? The one time I saw USGT run it looked like spec Caddy to me, but I haven't run both to know if there are big enough differences. Seems to me that if 21.5 is the new stock and slower TC class, that one of these two classes should go away. Ideally, we just have two TC classes run (including VTA) along with a pan car class (or two), but maybe that's asking too much.

Cliff's notes: Clear direction, clear rules, and consistent running of a class is only good for the health of the hobby! Lack of clarity on what tires someone should have, what motor and what body shell is just going to cause us to lose some valuable racers.


Rant over...

Last edited by Ike; 03-13-2018 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mikel33 View Post
Do we really have too many classes? Only in the usgt/21.5TC/17.5TC grouping. Lets look at what we really have.

usvta & F1 are not going anywhere
mod tc has a small but dedicated following.
Eurotruck seems to be a class, we just haven't seen it in a few weeks. We'll see how it holds up over the long run
13.5 1/12 is only run occasionally because not that many people run it. I don't think we've ever had 17.5 1/12 actually run. Maybe once, so lets not worry about those two classes
lmp1 and wgtr are also only run once in a blue moon so why worry about them either?

The real fight is over the stock speed TC classes - USGT and whatever speed stock TC ends up as

You would probably have a huge fight on your hands if you suggested getting rid of USGT. Plus, most of the folks that run usgt, F1 and vta usually run some combination of those 3 classes and not much else. You're not gonna get those folks into stock or mod TC very often. 1/12 even less.

So that leaves us (well, Eric really) to define what stock TC will be at wcrc. If I had a vote I would say for wcrc to make 21.5 the stock TC class. 17.5TC is on the way out, its just a matter of time. Now here's the problem. There are several folks running our 21.5TC class because the handout motor makes it inexpensive enough and slow enough to do it. If we make it open motor or even a single manufacturer motor we might lose a couple folks from TC and we need all the TC drivers we can find. Having said that, I think that ultimately I would say to Eric to choose 1 manufacturer 21.5 and go with that. Initial motor purchase would be a little more but you wouldn't have to play motor of the month club. Folks just getting started could gear down a little until they're comfortable. Most would probably tell me to gear down no matter what I run.....

So we have vta,f1,usgt, stock TC and mod TC as regular classes with whatever else depending on whatever else shows up. Pretty much what we have now except in TC. It seems like too much because we aren't getting full heats in the 'standard' classes.

We also have to stop thinking of this hobby the way it was 10 years ago or more. Its not about 'everyone needs a trophy'. The hobby has gotten pretty expensive the last 5 years and everyone needs to find a price point and speed they can handle. You have to be careful reducing the number of classes arbitrarily. We do need to keep it under control, but too much and you end up driving people away and neither we racers nor Eric's business want that.

Having said all that I hesitate to say what people should run. If I was told I couldn't run mod tc unless we always had a full heat of 8 and not 3-6 I would be pretty pissed. Its a fine line to walk.

wow that was a long post.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I think the 21.5 TC Class might grow. You have a relative inexpensive motor. It is popular in other parts of the country. The thing that gets in the way of growing on road racing and r/c racing in general is the cost. That's one of the reasons the Euro Truck Class is popular in may areas of the country.

To grow this hobby and attendance at Windy City you need young drivers and less restrictive classes. I think it was mentioned on this forum that they are going to run a basic Slash Class, which may help to get young racers in. In my opinion the classes with more restrictive rules will limit the number of participants. To get new people on the drivers stand cost will be the major factor. What we think is inexpensive is not to the person wanting to start racing.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:50 PM
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I don't entirely disagree with IKE's post above - but how do you put the cat back in the bag? If Michael Larson was emperor of RC it would be 1/12 stock, 1/12 mod, vta, stock TC and mod TC. But I'm not emperor so that doesn't matter.

I think we also have to look at things beyond wcrc. We had 500 entries at the indoor champs last Thanksgiving. 60 usgt, 30+vta, I want to say 50 or 60 F1 and 40 wgtr. That approx 180 of the 500 entries and a reason why we can hold it in a big nice hotel and one reason why I don't necessarily think we can force the hobby in a direction that a few of us think it should go and that what was right in the past may not be right for where we are at in the hobby now. Overall are there too many classes? I think so. But you also have to ask yourself how many guys running Eurotruck on Sunday for an initial purchase of what - $200 or so would be running if they had to drop $1000 or more for a competitive touring car. My vote is that whatever gets people in the door and starting in the hobby is good for the hobby and we work to get them moving into more advanced classes once they're ready.

MD I agree - cost is a huge issue for TC. more 1/12 would help as its a little cheaper but we've never been able to grow 1/12 here. Tire truing just kills it for a lot of people new to the hobby. That's why vta is important. You can reduce chassis cost by getting a used one usually and use a less expensive speedo. Tires last longer, batteries last longer and its slow enough to get started. We can put new folks into a sportsman class and they can move up to vta at no cost
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:28 PM
  #1939  
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I remember the old days when in 1/12 when you had to adjust your gearing as the tires wore down. 1/12 was a very good class because it was always 8 minutes, you could buy a fiberglass chassis, gradually up grade and you ran 4 cell packs which were cheaper. I know I am old and now I am sounding old.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MD View Post
I remember the old days when in 1/12 when you had to adjust your gearing as the tires wore down. 1/12 was a very good class because it was always 8 minutes, you could buy a fiberglass chassis, gradually up grade and you ran 4 cell packs which were cheaper. I know I am old and now I am sounding old.
I agree with you. When I started it was on-road 1/12 mod or stock. Off-road was stock, mod or 4wd.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MD View Post
I remember the old days when in 1/12 when you had to adjust your gearing as the tires wore down. 1/12 was a very good class because it was always 8 minutes, you could buy a fiberglass chassis, gradually up grade and you ran 4 cell packs which were cheaper. I know I am old and now I am sounding old.
Getting good batteries was a nightmare though...
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mikel33 View Post
I don't entirely disagree with IKE's post above - but how do you put the cat back in the bag? If Michael Larson was emperor of RC it would be 1/12 stock, 1/12 mod, vta, stock TC and mod TC. But I'm not emperor so that doesn't matter.

I think we also have to look at things beyond wcrc. We had 500 entries at the indoor champs last Thanksgiving. 60 usgt, 30+vta, I want to say 50 or 60 F1 and 40 wgtr. That approx 180 of the 500 entries and a reason why we can hold it in a big nice hotel and one reason why I don't necessarily think we can force the hobby in a direction that a few of us think it should go and that what was right in the past may not be right for where we are at in the hobby now. Overall are there too many classes? I think so. But you also have to ask yourself how many guys running Eurotruck on Sunday for an initial purchase of what - $200 or so would be running if they had to drop $1000 or more for a competitive touring car. My vote is that whatever gets people in the door and starting in the hobby is good for the hobby and we work to get them moving into more advanced classes once they're ready.

MD I agree - cost is a huge issue for TC. more 1/12 would help as its a little cheaper but we've never been able to grow 1/12 here. Tire truing just kills it for a lot of people new to the hobby. That's why vta is important. You can reduce chassis cost by getting a used one usually and use a less expensive speedo. Tires last longer, batteries last longer and its slow enough to get started. We can put new folks into a sportsman class and they can move up to vta at no cost
I love 1/12th scale, and by comparison my VTA and other TC's feel like turds. However, tires are the scary one with some guys running them one race and done. That combined with no truer at the track is a death sentence. I think both are easy to solve with some agreements among racers to not use more than one set of tires per race weekend, and having a community truer. I'd be willing to make a $50 donation towards paying for one if the track would be willing to dedicate the space. Hell, if I find an automatic one at a decent price I'll donate my RD logics truer for track use... Again, if this is something the guys at the track would be willing to set-up a spot for.

Who's with me, a save the 1/12th scale go fund me tire truer drive!!!
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamska27 View Post
All good points

Side note: Is there a hotel deal for the VTA nats?
USVTA Scale Nationals is about a month away. Should be even bigger and better than last year.

April 6, 7 and 8

Schedule:

Friday Open Practice: 10 am to 9 pm

Saturday Doors Open at 7 am
Racing to start at 10 am

Sunday Doors open at 7 am
Racing to start at 930 am

Classes:

VTA
USGT
F1
17.5 TC
21.5 TC
Euro Truck

Hotel information:

Courtyard by Marriott
3700 N Wilke
Arlington Heights IL 60004
(847) 34-9999

Rates of $76 p/n King or Queen Rooms.
About 1.2 Miles from track
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:35 PM
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Running the spec purple stripe tire for 13.5 has helped with the tire situation. They last for at least a full day of practice and racing if you don't start too low. Problem is, that's 20 bucks or so for 1 day's racing, maybe 2. 1 set of TC tires will last you a LOT longer and you only have to glue them, not true them and then glue them.

a regular 12th scale class would be great but in the 10-11 years I've been racing I've not seen it take hold for more than a couple months. We've tried multiple times.

When all is said and done, we have to get more kids and dads involved together in this so the kids can grow with it and move up through the classes. You can argue about millenials and what they do and what they want and this and that and whatever. But I can see an off-road track packing them in 3 times a week there's an answer for on-road. We just haven't found it yet.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ike View Post
I love 1/12th scale, and by comparison my VTA and other TC's feel like turds. However, tires are the scary one with some guys running them one race and done. That combined with no truer at the track is a death sentence. I think both are easy to solve with some agreements among racers to not use more than one set of tires per race weekend, and having a community truer. I'd be willing to make a $50 donation towards paying for one if the track would be willing to dedicate the space. Hell, if I find an automatic one at a decent price I'll donate my RD logics truer for track use... Again, if this is something the guys at the track would be willing to set-up a spot for.

Who's with me, a save the 1/12th scale go fund me tire truer drive!!!
We had one at the old building. People would abuse it, break it-parts even came up missing, not clean it, or the area around it was a mess. The shop vac was right under the shelf. So i've been told we are not setting one up here at the new building. If someone wants to set there's up and let everyone use it and clean there area up then so be it...

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Old 03-14-2018, 08:08 AM
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Larson - I never said get rid of anything other than one of these redundant TC classes and one stock 1/12th scale division, so I think we agree on a lot, F1 and Eurotruck have their places

If cost is as big a factor as people seem to think it is (I dunno about that, have any of you ever played golf? Way more expensive than R/C) then that pretty much makes it easy.

21.5 Spec Touring
--Whatever motor WCRC has been using (HW or something)
--Jacos
--TC rules for everything else

I really like the USGT format, but finding out guys were using bodies as tuning options (I mean, makes sense) and also that the tyres don't last much longer than Jacos before they fall off are serious negatives for the class. I think we should see what turnout is for this VTA nats race and try to address the health of USGT.

Cheap classes:
Eurotrash, F1, VTA

Medium:
21.5 Spec, 13.5 1/12

Fast:
Mod TC, Mod 1/12

I wasn't there 10 years ago, I was there 15 years ago, it was stock and mod touring, that was it, we had so many stock guys we would break it down by sponsored/not sponsored like the DNC

Oh, and yes, everyone should get a "prize" -- Ever been to a Scotty Ernst Event? Good luck not winning some little thing, I think it is a matter of respect for the racers, its not that hard to get sponsors to throw in some swag

Points series -Plaques for top 3 and free race or something for lower finishers who attended minimum number of races

Big races- Trophies and sponsor prizes/raffle crap
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mikel33 View Post
When all is said and done, we have to get more kids and dads involved together in this so the kids can grow with it and move up through the classes. You can argue about millenials and what they do and what they want and this and that and whatever. But I can see an off-road track packing them in 3 times a week there's an answer for on-road. We just haven't found it yet.

We have been talking about this very same subject a lot lately. the problem is which direction do we go. The choices for inexpensive are slim. we have the traxxas 4 tech, associated tc 4, and the Tamiya cars. the traxxas car is tough to get around with out a lot of changes but they are releasing an aluminum chassis version which is in kit form so we can see how that will perform . the tc4 requires everything to get it going ( tires, electronics, body) and the plastic can be brittle. the Tamiya cars usually come with body speedo and motor but require a bunch of hop-ups to get them competitive. the idea is to get a cost effective entry level car like the slash is for offroad
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:51 AM
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Maybe the first thing needed is an actual Race Director and not a bunch of different guy running the races while trying to race, too.

Second-Find ways to turn Bashers into Racers. Rookie Race Days?

As for the different class situation- VTA, USGT w/spec motor and MOD.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WindyCityRC View Post
We have been talking about this very same subject a lot lately. the problem is which direction do we go. The choices for inexpensive are slim. we have the traxxas 4 tech, associated tc 4, and the Tamiya cars. the traxxas car is tough to get around with out a lot of changes but they are releasing an aluminum chassis version which is in kit form so we can see how that will perform . the tc4 requires everything to get it going ( tires, electronics, body) and the plastic can be brittle. the Tamiya cars usually come with body speedo and motor but require a bunch of hop-ups to get them competitive. the idea is to get a cost effective entry level car like the slash is for offroad

Traxxas is going to be the best bet for anything pertaining to new people. Hopefully the new car is better with aluminum chassis. I cant imagine it not getting around good enough for a beginners type class.
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WindyCityRC View Post
the tc4 requires everything to get it going ( tires, electronics, body) and the plastic can be brittle. the Tamiya cars usually come with body speedo and motor but require a bunch of hop-ups to get them competitive. the idea is to get a cost effective entry level car like the slash is for offroad
I can vouch for the TC4 thing. But once I stopped hitting walls.. things were pretty good. (and the whole "if you have the spare parts, you won't break the parts you have voodoo..)

What is your idea of competitive? And are you talking in existing classes?
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