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Old 03-13-2006, 10:45 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by xevias
New Fusion user here and I'm expecting my shipment of 4200's soon. I've read the last 5-10 pages and was wondering if they should be taken care of like the 3800's, follow the Fusion web site instructions to the letter, or some other custon routine. I'm running stock and 19T carpet touring.

Anyone had a chance to test the 4200's yet?
Treat them like you would 3800's and you will be fine. Discharge no lower than 5.4/.9, and equalize at .9 before charging. Charge at 6.0amps with a .2/20mv cutoff. I also try to discharge at a rate no higher than 20amps. Using a spintec/dyna pulse every 5-6 cycles seems to help. IB's don't seem to respond to trays and dead shorting like GP's. Good Luck!
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Old 03-13-2006, 11:44 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by M LANE
Treat them like you would 3800's and you will be fine. Discharge no lower than 5.4/.9, and equalize at .9 before charging. Charge at 6.0amps with a .2/20mv cutoff. I also try to discharge at a rate no higher than 20amps. Using a spintec/dyna pulse every 5-6 cycles seems to help. IB's don't seem to respond to trays and dead shorting like GP's. Good Luck!
I agree with everything that M Lane said, but watch the peak temp on the pack. Fusion doesn't have the second layer of shrink on them so you may have to set your cutoff a bit higher, like .3 to get them to 120 to 130 degrees, where they should be peaked at.
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Old 03-13-2006, 12:35 PM   #1653
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speaking of temperatures and reak cutoffs, if I set my ICE to cut off at .2 the temp really only gets up to about 100*. I have my cutoff at .5 right now and the packs get up to about 110* with no shrink on them (I think that is high enough). It just seems strange to me that they will theoretically peak at .2, but i'll only put 3700 mah into a 3800. If i turn up the peak threshold to .5, it puts in about 4100 mah into it and the temp gets up, but I don't want to be damaging my cells. Any ideas if I am doing it correctly or if i should just play it safe and turn down the peak threshold and maybe not charge my packs fully???
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:01 PM   #1654
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Originally Posted by DennisNyholm
speaking of temperatures and reak cutoffs, if I set my ICE to cut off at .2 the temp really only gets up to about 100*. I have my cutoff at .5 right now and the packs get up to about 110* with no shrink on them (I think that is high enough). It just seems strange to me that they will theoretically peak at .2, but i'll only put 3700 mah into a 3800. If i turn up the peak threshold to .5, it puts in about 4100 mah into it and the temp gets up, but I don't want to be damaging my cells. Any ideas if I am doing it correctly or if i should just play it safe and turn down the peak threshold and maybe not charge my packs fully???
I personally prefer a temperature charge with a cutoff of 115F. I think it is a better way to measure that the cell is charged but I cinsider ambient temp when i do it. If it's hot(over 85F) then temp charging does not work well. If it's really cold (under 60F) then I reduce cutoff to 110F. I run 3700's which have worked really well for me and I generally get 4400 - 4500Mah into them when I equalise correctly. I have done a lot of tests with IB's and I would not equalise them at all.

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Old 03-13-2006, 04:26 PM   #1655
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I have been finding that if you don't equalize 3800's they tend to take less mah on the charge. Packs that were taking 4300mah started dropping. Used the Spintec and got back to equalizing every charge and the packs are right back to 4300mah. In regards to tempature it probally is a better way to go, but I'm not convinced that 125-130 isn't to high for 3800's. I've been trying different things with 3800's since our packs were new and the packs that I've allowed to get up to 125-130 are no longer as strong after 20-25 cycles as the packs that have been set with a cutoff of .2/20mv which is closer to 110-115 degrees. When cycling the packs on my T35 for reference I have found no useful difference in voltage/runtime when charged to 110/115 and 125/130. IB's are great race cells, but they seem to be very sensative to how you treat them. I'm sure as time/testing goes on everyone will know more about caring for IB's. I'm certainly not saying the way I stated earlier is best, but so far our best results have come from that method. I think getting cells that are rated at 3800mah to take 4300 after only being taken down to 5.4 instead of traying to zero is amazing! What will 4200's be like!
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Old 03-21-2006, 09:45 AM   #1656
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Aaron and I would like to think Fusion Batteries for their continued support and the great batteries they provided for last weeks Cactus Classic.
We ran the new 4200 IB's and found the performance to be outstanding!
They had major punch and unreal runtime. I believe the 4200's are great for all level of drivers. The performance for serious racing and major runtime for those backyard bashers.
Aaron made the A-Main in both 19T Truck and Buggy, but the rain on Sunday morning ended the race early. He and the other racers were unable to run the scheduled triple A-mains.
Time to take the Fusion power into race one of the JBRL Offroad series this Sunday.
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Old 03-21-2006, 12:55 PM   #1657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M LANE
I have been finding that if you don't equalize 3800's they tend to take less mah on the charge. Packs that were taking 4300mah started dropping. Used the Spintec and got back to equalizing every charge and the packs are right back to 4300mah. In regards to tempature it probally is a better way to go, but I'm not convinced that 125-130 isn't to high for 3800's. I've been trying different things with 3800's since our packs were new and the packs that I've allowed to get up to 125-130 are no longer as strong after 20-25 cycles as the packs that have been set with a cutoff of .2/20mv which is closer to 110-115 degrees. When cycling the packs on my T35 for reference I have found no useful difference in voltage/runtime when charged to 110/115 and 125/130. IB's are great race cells, but they seem to be very sensative to how you treat them. I'm sure as time/testing goes on everyone will know more about caring for IB's. I'm certainly not saying the way I stated earlier is best, but so far our best results have come from that method. I think getting cells that are rated at 3800mah to take 4300 after only being taken down to 5.4 instead of traying to zero is amazing! What will 4200's be like!
On the IB packs which you are equalising, check discharge run time, you may be unpleasantly surprised. Generally any significant equalising of IB's will crush the run time, I have not seen a case where this has not happened yet. I want to stress the significant part here, i don't know where the line is where you will have reducued run time but I know it does not take much equalising to lose it. Strangely the input Mah will not be hurt too bad. Equalising GP's however is a wonderful thing, I'm putting 4400 - 4500Mah into mine after good equalising and with GP's you get MORE run time, not less.
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Old 03-21-2006, 01:59 PM   #1658
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From what I understand, listenening to several people around the industry is that lowest you want to go on equalizing is .7. Otherwise exactly what you describe will happen.

Recently I have switched to a discharge tray that is made by a Japanese company named Rush. Paul Wynn turned me on to it at the Novak race. What it does is equalize the pack by discharging each individual cell at .75amps untill it reaches a cutoff of .7 volts. Then it will hold each cell at that cutoff untill it is released from the tray. So far it has worked really well and does just what it says and I have not seen any side effects.

btw the Fusion 4200s are really good and the numbers are unreal. To bad the none of big races around here won't allow them yet.
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:16 PM   #1659
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Crimson,
In regards to equalizing I've only been going down to .9 on a smart tray. I don't think this is considered excessive. If you are refering to equalizing/traying below .9 then yes you are correct, I've been down that road already.
3800's on a Tekin Battery Doctor with a .5 cutoff for 8 hours cost us 80 seconds of runtime! I had to try it for myself, and now try to warn people not to do it.
What kind of average voltage are you getting from your GP's ?
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Old 03-21-2006, 03:06 PM   #1660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M LANE
Crimson,
In regards to equalizing I've only been going down to .9 on a smart tray. I don't think this is considered excessive. If you are refering to equalizing/traying below .9 then yes you are correct, I've been down that road already.
3800's on a Tekin Battery Doctor with a .5 cutoff for 8 hours cost us 80 seconds of runtime! I had to try it for myself, and now try to warn people not to do it.
What kind of average voltage are you getting from your GP's ?

MLane,

My GP3700's are like most good packs of gp3700's, voltage is a couple of hundredths down (1.185 - 1.190) as compared to IB's. I have had my most recent ones for a good 6 months now and they still feel pretty good. My first batch of 3700's are still in good shape, thay are over a year old now I think and still going pretty strong. I can get 4300Mah into them if I equalise them well. I think I'll be holding out for the new gp's before I buy any more though.
I'm a little shocked, you are one of the only people who have not categorically disagreed with me about equalising IB's, I was braced to get flamed, thankyou for not doing that.

I do have one question for you - When do you do the equalising? Is it right after you have raced or right before you charge them for the next race. I'd think the latter one would be safer as I would not like to let them sit in a discharged state. I have not tested for this though, gets too expensive when you make mistakes.

Chris
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Old 03-22-2006, 09:51 AM   #1661
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Crimson,
I've been flamed a few times myself on this site over the treatment of IB's and other topics. LOL! I know for myself what happens because like you I like to test things for myself.
I equalize just prior to charging, and I am also considering not discharging after a run is finished and then charging for 500sec. Instead I'm going to try to treat a couple of packs differently. I'm not going to discharge to 5.4 until 4-8 hrs. prior to charging and equalizing for the next race.
At the Cactus last week I tried equalizing with the Smart Tray and a 0-30 as recommended by some matchers and I found no difference in performance. The 2 packs that were equalized with the 0-30 until the lights when out began taking in less and less mah every charge and within 4-5 charges were down 300mah on a charge while the Smart tray packs stayed fairly consistent. I'm going to be doing some cycling over the next week to see how the numbers look on the various packs. I do miss being able to discharge a pack and then place it on a tray until the next charge, but the voltage the IB's have is to hard to ignore. 1.121-1.122 on 4 month old 3800's.
Mark Lane
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Old 03-22-2006, 10:11 AM   #1662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M LANE
Crimson,
I've been flamed a few times myself on this site over the treatment of IB's and other topics. LOL! I know for myself what happens because like you I like to test things for myself.
I equalize just prior to charging, and I am also considering not discharging after a run is finished and then charging for 500sec. Instead I'm going to try to treat a couple of packs differently. I'm not going to discharge to 5.4 until 4-8 hrs. prior to charging and equalizing for the next race.
At the Cactus last week I tried equalizing with the Smart Tray and a 0-30 as recommended by some matchers and I found no difference in performance. The 2 packs that were equalized with the 0-30 until the lights when out began taking in less and less mah every charge and within 4-5 charges were down 300mah on a charge while the Smart tray packs stayed fairly consistent. I'm going to be doing some cycling over the next week to see how the numbers look on the various packs. I do miss being able to discharge a pack and then place it on a tray until the next charge, but the voltage the IB's have is to hard to ignore. 1.121-1.122 on 4 month old 3800's.
Mark Lane
Great info Mark,

I like someone who goes with the data, it's dificult (but not impossible) to make it lie. I had a good idea that there was a line out there for where the best performance can be gained. My testing had not found out where this line is so I was telling my customers to not get near it until someone works it out. It looks like you are getting close to that point. I'd be interested to know what the long term durability of the cells are for the different methods of taking care of them are.

Please keep us updated on your progress and thanks again.

Chris
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:37 PM   #1663
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thanks Fusion for my package ... Cant wait to get these 42's on the track ....
Hope Everyone running Fusion power has a good weekend ...
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:39 PM   #1664
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How low should you discharge 3800's?
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Old 04-12-2006, 03:38 PM   #1665
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not lower than 5.4 or 0.9vdc per cell
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