What the best esc for Zero Timing Class
10-04-2010, 07:47 PM
#46
http://www.rctech.net/forum/7400889-post65.html
10-04-2010, 09:00 PM
#47
Tech Rookie
Bunch of arguing like usual. Does anyone have actual info on the question that was posted?
I race in circles. Fast guys are running Tekin. I'm the closest non-tekin (LRP Sphere '07) about a lap behind (4 seconds).
Would really like to get something that is fast and don't really want a Tekin. Is anyone competitive running against the Tekins with a LRP SXX V.2 or Speed Passion GT 2.0?
I race in circles. Fast guys are running Tekin. I'm the closest non-tekin (LRP Sphere '07) about a lap behind (4 seconds).
Would really like to get something that is fast and don't really want a Tekin. Is anyone competitive running against the Tekins with a LRP SXX V.2 or Speed Passion GT 2.0?
10-05-2010, 09:49 AM
#48
im currently running in a 17.5 no esc timming touring class and love it. im running the hobbywing xerun 60A speedo with a lrp x12 stock spec motor (timming on the motor). i keep up with the big name speedos in speed, but am stuck in the B main because of chassis setup, and my driving 
C ratings on lipos do not matter with a higher wind motor. the motor can only use so much of the power the battery is throwing out. the top racer i am running with uses the turnigy 5000mAH 20C batteries as do i and still keep up on the straight. i laugh at the guys who spend $100+ on each battery to run 17.5, when you can be just as competitive with a $20 pack
C ratings on lipos do not matter with a higher wind motor. the motor can only use so much of the power the battery is throwing out. the top racer i am running with uses the turnigy 5000mAH 20C batteries as do i and still keep up on the straight. i laugh at the guys who spend $100+ on each battery to run 17.5, when you can be just as competitive with a $20 pack
10-05-2010, 09:50 AM
#49
Have any of you tried the Ko BMC for "stock" its really a great speedo. They have some tunability to them and roar aproved still i believe!
10-05-2010, 10:11 AM
#50
Admittedly it IS a smooth feeling speed controller with plenty of throttle band frequency adjustment... but do you really need all that for stock?
10-20-2010, 12:04 AM
#52
You know this has always been a debate for years and I bet before I was around in the hobby and I bet it will never change....
But I was wondering hey why dont we do a similar thing to say the drag racing for instance?? I know it will be hard to start with but in the end might be very rewarding.
With qualifying or heats whatever say you have a dial in time that you cant go under... I mean everyone is saying this speedo gives me seconds per lap faster and all the rest... well there is one way for everyone to run any equipment and that is make it so 17.5 sportsman class has a dial in of eg. 30 secs a lap and in a race they can only go under that time 3 times during a race otherwise dq'ed.
Then go thru all the classes and do the same time.... except for 1 open class where there is no limits on anything.
Whats going to happen is its going to get way more competitive but the better drivers will either have to slow down and not go past the dial in time or move up a class... That way anyone can race in any class with anything but time is a limiting factor...
And trust me a guy that spends mega bucks on all the lastest gear will get shit off and not wanna drive slow just so he can win against slower drivers that have only spent $100 on a car and still could beat him...
Drag racing has been like that for years and I am sure it could work with a little bit more of a thought process put to it...
Fordy
But I was wondering hey why dont we do a similar thing to say the drag racing for instance?? I know it will be hard to start with but in the end might be very rewarding.
With qualifying or heats whatever say you have a dial in time that you cant go under... I mean everyone is saying this speedo gives me seconds per lap faster and all the rest... well there is one way for everyone to run any equipment and that is make it so 17.5 sportsman class has a dial in of eg. 30 secs a lap and in a race they can only go under that time 3 times during a race otherwise dq'ed.
Then go thru all the classes and do the same time.... except for 1 open class where there is no limits on anything.
Whats going to happen is its going to get way more competitive but the better drivers will either have to slow down and not go past the dial in time or move up a class... That way anyone can race in any class with anything but time is a limiting factor...
And trust me a guy that spends mega bucks on all the lastest gear will get shit off and not wanna drive slow just so he can win against slower drivers that have only spent $100 on a car and still could beat him...
Drag racing has been like that for years and I am sure it could work with a little bit more of a thought process put to it...
Fordy
10-20-2010, 03:24 AM
#53
Zero timing was another 'fad' pushed onto the average racer as a way to equalize racing when comparing speedies from one manufacturer to another. The only way to equalize it is having a singular company produce a spec racing zero timing speedo... and clubs or racing organizations adopt it for that intent. Imagine the political BS over THAT decision.
As long as there is user programmable software in an ESC... zero timing will not be zero timing... based on a true reference of 'Zero' (a benchmark) from one manufacturer to another. Do brushless motors have standardized 'zero timing' from one company to another?
And thats hardware. If people would just realize that advanced speed control timing has a limit, and learn to use it, then classes wouldnt die. People wouldnt be buying into fads, they would be buying into a sport.
You say you dont want to worry about a laptop and how to program your speedo or learning suspension design and how to properly set a car up for faster laps? We have a class for you. You run with everyone else that doesnt really want to put effort into learning how to do anything. Its called... RTR. You get what you pay for, and your return on your investment is as equal.
NOW. For those that want to race. Lets RACE. Lets push the envelope every weekend, and go home 'happy' with our 5th place in the A main. Why? Because we care to know what we can do to go that much faster... and realize that the majority of that improvement is to the nut behind the transmitter. NOT the speedo. NOT the motor. NOT any other reason one could think of to pass off why one would suck on any given race day.
I can type this, and say i live this. I have had a bad month of racing. There is a backstory here, but i will just describe the straw that broke the camels back. --- Last week i built a 'new' car for raceday. In practice the car was REALLY loose, and i broke an A arm with the first pack in it. I barely made the first qually... but got it together in time to break it AGAIN in less than 4 minutes. In my frustration i chucked the car 20+ feet into a cinderblock wall. I picked it up and did it AGAIN. Still not satisfied i had stomped my feet enough and exerted my anger on this inanimate object, i punted it another 20+ feet.
Whats the point? Im assembling another car as i type this. Why? My car is in pieces because of me. It wasnt the cars fault. Heck, it wasnt my zero timing speedo either. I run boosted speedos. Just realize that you WILL have bad days. You WILL have days that you just plain suck. If you want to RACE... that WILL happen. 2nd place is first loser. How bad do you wanna win?
/rant
As long as there is user programmable software in an ESC... zero timing will not be zero timing... based on a true reference of 'Zero' (a benchmark) from one manufacturer to another. Do brushless motors have standardized 'zero timing' from one company to another?
And thats hardware. If people would just realize that advanced speed control timing has a limit, and learn to use it, then classes wouldnt die. People wouldnt be buying into fads, they would be buying into a sport.You say you dont want to worry about a laptop and how to program your speedo or learning suspension design and how to properly set a car up for faster laps? We have a class for you. You run with everyone else that doesnt really want to put effort into learning how to do anything. Its called... RTR. You get what you pay for, and your return on your investment is as equal.
NOW. For those that want to race. Lets RACE. Lets push the envelope every weekend, and go home 'happy' with our 5th place in the A main. Why? Because we care to know what we can do to go that much faster... and realize that the majority of that improvement is to the nut behind the transmitter. NOT the speedo. NOT the motor. NOT any other reason one could think of to pass off why one would suck on any given race day.
I can type this, and say i live this. I have had a bad month of racing. There is a backstory here, but i will just describe the straw that broke the camels back. --- Last week i built a 'new' car for raceday. In practice the car was REALLY loose, and i broke an A arm with the first pack in it. I barely made the first qually... but got it together in time to break it AGAIN in less than 4 minutes. In my frustration i chucked the car 20+ feet into a cinderblock wall. I picked it up and did it AGAIN. Still not satisfied i had stomped my feet enough and exerted my anger on this inanimate object, i punted it another 20+ feet.
Whats the point? Im assembling another car as i type this. Why? My car is in pieces because of me. It wasnt the cars fault. Heck, it wasnt my zero timing speedo either. I run boosted speedos. Just realize that you WILL have bad days. You WILL have days that you just plain suck. If you want to RACE... that WILL happen. 2nd place is first loser. How bad do you wanna win?
/rant
Just show a lil more self control next time. Trust me when I say. "YOU" are the guy to beat at our track, if and when you show up
10-20-2010, 04:51 AM
#54
Since seeing the amount some people spend on a hobby for one meeting and putting with it the biggest r/c quote known to many "we're racing toy cars for bowling trophies" I don't really have much of a desire to win.
I have more of a desire to meet new people or chat to the ones I know, the racing itself is just a background thing that I either do well at, or do not.
If you're happy spending money on the hobby cool, if you're not and can't keep up, either keep learning and accept you're not as fast as you would like to be, find a class thats better for you, or sell up.
(That's not directed at anyone in particular btw!)
That's what I like about this hobby - you can smile at it from any angle.
You can win with a cheaper car and smile at the guys who run more expensive stuff, or you can smile that you just enjoy the hobby at your own level of expense and gratitude...
If you ask yourself often why am I into r/c and see no good answer(s), it's not for you.
Sooner or later that question is asked by anyone into r/c.
I have more of a desire to meet new people or chat to the ones I know, the racing itself is just a background thing that I either do well at, or do not.
If you're happy spending money on the hobby cool, if you're not and can't keep up, either keep learning and accept you're not as fast as you would like to be, find a class thats better for you, or sell up.
(That's not directed at anyone in particular btw!)
That's what I like about this hobby - you can smile at it from any angle.
You can win with a cheaper car and smile at the guys who run more expensive stuff, or you can smile that you just enjoy the hobby at your own level of expense and gratitude...
If you ask yourself often why am I into r/c and see no good answer(s), it's not for you.
Sooner or later that question is asked by anyone into r/c.
10-20-2010, 05:37 AM
#55
Since seeing the amount some people spend on a hobby for one meeting and putting with it the biggest r/c quote known to many "we're racing toy cars for bowling trophies" I don't really have much of a desire to win.
I have more of a desire to meet new people or chat to the ones I know, the racing itself is just a background thing that I either do well at, or do not.
If you're happy spending money on the hobby cool, if you're not and can't keep up, either keep learning and accept you're not as fast as you would like to be, find a class thats better for you, or sell up.
(That's not directed at anyone in particular btw!)
That's what I like about this hobby - you can smile at it from any angle.
You can win with a cheaper car and smile at the guys who run more expensive stuff, or you can smile that you just enjoy the hobby at your own level of expense and gratitude...
If you ask yourself often why am I into r/c and see no good answer(s), it's not for you.
Sooner or later that question is asked by anyone into r/c.
I have more of a desire to meet new people or chat to the ones I know, the racing itself is just a background thing that I either do well at, or do not.
If you're happy spending money on the hobby cool, if you're not and can't keep up, either keep learning and accept you're not as fast as you would like to be, find a class thats better for you, or sell up.
(That's not directed at anyone in particular btw!)
That's what I like about this hobby - you can smile at it from any angle.
You can win with a cheaper car and smile at the guys who run more expensive stuff, or you can smile that you just enjoy the hobby at your own level of expense and gratitude...
If you ask yourself often why am I into r/c and see no good answer(s), it's not for you.
Sooner or later that question is asked by anyone into r/c.
10-20-2010, 06:01 AM
#56
You know what its not toy cars.... there is a hobby grade and a toy grade and if you think they are just toys your mistaken.... Most ppl use this as a sport and a investment... sure its not the kind of investment you get a money return but you sure as hell get a enjoyment return. If you ask the question about enjoying atleast one aspect of the sport and cant find one then yes sell up but in no way should ppl say to someone else in the sport to sell up just because they arent any good.... the more talented ppl should give back to the sport thats right and help anyone where possible.
I've raced for 15 years, had 3 sponsorships (2 still active) and currently have a trf415msxx and a ta05, so yes i'm aware of the grade of cars we race with, but the saying highlights how seriously (bordering on too seriously?) how some people take the hobby - not everyone into r/c will be.
You have to have a need to race, or there is no point in doing it.
All i'm highlighting is be realistic
Understand where your limits are - i've done what i've wanted to in this hobby, I have nothing else to prove to myself, or others. There is a point where you will cut yourself off at, wether it be at going to the bigger events, ones far away from your home town, or the cost -or all of those.
i'd never tell anyone to sell up - but if they are not enjoying it, i'd tell them to ask themselves why, because no one comes back for a second punch in the face unless they feel they have a chance of "winning" what they want from the hobby.
10-20-2010, 06:19 AM
#57
I've raced for 15 years, had 3 sponsorships (2 still active) and currently have a trf415msxx and a ta05, so yes i'm aware of the grade of cars we race with, but the saying highlights how seriously (bordering on too seriously?) how some people take the hobby - not everyone into r/c will be.
You have to have a need to race, or there is no point in doing it.
All i'm highlighting is be realistic
Understand where your limits are - i've done what i've wanted to in this hobby, I have nothing else to prove to myself, or others. There is a point where you will cut yourself off at, wether it be at going to the bigger events, ones far away from your home town, or the cost -or all of those.
i'd never tell anyone to sell up - but if they are not enjoying it, i'd tell them to ask themselves why, because no one comes back for a second punch in the face unless they feel they have a chance of "winning" what they want from the hobby.
You have to have a need to race, or there is no point in doing it.
All i'm highlighting is be realistic
Understand where your limits are - i've done what i've wanted to in this hobby, I have nothing else to prove to myself, or others. There is a point where you will cut yourself off at, wether it be at going to the bigger events, ones far away from your home town, or the cost -or all of those.
i'd never tell anyone to sell up - but if they are not enjoying it, i'd tell them to ask themselves why, because no one comes back for a second punch in the face unless they feel they have a chance of "winning" what they want from the hobby.
Yeah true... your right but I must say if you have proved everything to yourself and you cant do anything else great.... But look at all the top drivers that go to the worlds and all over the world to race.... Hara is at the top of his game most of the time but yet he still goes and races all the time.. He has sponsorship from what all the companies you can think of so it doesnt cost him anything yet he still wins and still comes 2nd. What else would he have to prove to himself or anyone else when he has already done it all besides winning everything year in year out. ????
10-20-2010, 06:48 AM
#58
Yeah true... your right but I must say if you have proved everything to yourself and you cant do anything else great.... But look at all the top drivers that go to the worlds and all over the world to race.... Hara is at the top of his game most of the time but yet he still goes and races all the time.. He has sponsorship from what all the companies you can think of so it doesnt cost him anything yet he still wins and still comes 2nd. What else would he have to prove to himself or anyone else when he has already done it all besides winning everything year in year out. ????
One chooses how far they take themselves in r/c, which is my point.
It is all about targets and being realistic about what you feel you can achieve. There is a fine line between getting enjoyment from r/c and pushing yourself into a zone of competition you do not feel comfortable at.
If you want to do better, have the time for it, the money to do it and you are man enough to do it, then you go to the bigger events and push the envolope on your own level of skill.
Some want to keep their skill polished, some have seen what they can achieve and want to simply enjoy the hobby around friends without looking for that 0.1 off their laptime.
Back on topic, there is no "equal" unless it really is equal - so the best esc for a zero timing class is the same one used by everyone.
Everyone has their favourite brand of ESC, and so in most cases that will probably be their (biased) answer if it has a zero timing option.
As for me, I race 13.5 and any esc is allowed. Its the only touring car class we have, some say it is too fast but the answer to that is why should we force the majority of people to buy a 17.5 motor or whatever?
10-20-2010, 07:14 AM
#59
a few years ago, the ESC's advertised a 'mininum resistance'. i suspect that all of today's ESC resistance is 0.000xx or less. there could be slight variations in the fixed timing between one ESC and another, but back to back ESC comparisons with a fixed motor setting is not too relevant.
if the motor timing is not controlled, then any variation in 'fixed' timing in the ESC is compensated for by adjusting the motor endbell timing. to me this suggests that the motor endbell timing, rollout and battery voltage are the key tuning variables.
so shouldn't this spec performance focus should be on which motor, its timing setting and which battery has the best voltage under load?
if the motor timing is not controlled, then any variation in 'fixed' timing in the ESC is compensated for by adjusting the motor endbell timing. to me this suggests that the motor endbell timing, rollout and battery voltage are the key tuning variables.
so shouldn't this spec performance focus should be on which motor, its timing setting and which battery has the best voltage under load?
10-20-2010, 07:47 AM
#60
Does anybody just want to race and have fun anymore.....
all problems in on-road eletric r/c cars are fixed at the source....LOCAL TRACKS...its the easy fix that keeps getting moved around .....
start at the local track.....have the race dir, contact other tracks in your region and come up with a set of rules that you all can agree on...same esc or very similar....that will set the tone for other regions to get on a very similar page...this will attract the big promoters to look at what the locals are doing in the area that they are having a big/national race at...the big promo will adapt the rules into the race due to the fact he will need local support to pull the race off...once the big promo is booking these rules the r/c co. will see what is run at these big races and will make adjustments as it will be in demand for this product....
and if you dont think it doesnt work...look at the full circle of esc...LRP SPX(to blame..lol), was the kick-off to the extreme high timming esc's...and every co. out there went to work on boost/turbo/time there next speedo or software...then the complaining started with the entry to TC 17.5 stock reaching mod speeds....and now once again every co. across the world has a NON adv esc....
we the local racers controll the r/c world...its up to us to put a end to the "dying" of on-road racing....somebody along the way said enough is enough...and things changed...if every track/club all ran a similar esc that has been tested regaudless of brand, you would see a spike in newbies to the scene....
talk to your club members,race director,other clubs, and even big promoters and tell them what is going on with your r/c world and what can be done to fix it.....
give me 3 TC classes and Im good....VTA,TC/RCGT/Sportsman, & OPEN TC
All of this can be fixed, its just to up us to fix it...
all problems in on-road eletric r/c cars are fixed at the source....LOCAL TRACKS...its the easy fix that keeps getting moved around .....
start at the local track.....have the race dir, contact other tracks in your region and come up with a set of rules that you all can agree on...same esc or very similar....that will set the tone for other regions to get on a very similar page...this will attract the big promoters to look at what the locals are doing in the area that they are having a big/national race at...the big promo will adapt the rules into the race due to the fact he will need local support to pull the race off...once the big promo is booking these rules the r/c co. will see what is run at these big races and will make adjustments as it will be in demand for this product....
and if you dont think it doesnt work...look at the full circle of esc...LRP SPX(to blame..lol), was the kick-off to the extreme high timming esc's...and every co. out there went to work on boost/turbo/time there next speedo or software...then the complaining started with the entry to TC 17.5 stock reaching mod speeds....and now once again every co. across the world has a NON adv esc....
we the local racers controll the r/c world...its up to us to put a end to the "dying" of on-road racing....somebody along the way said enough is enough...and things changed...if every track/club all ran a similar esc that has been tested regaudless of brand, you would see a spike in newbies to the scene....
talk to your club members,race director,other clubs, and even big promoters and tell them what is going on with your r/c world and what can be done to fix it.....
give me 3 TC classes and Im good....VTA,TC/RCGT/Sportsman, & OPEN TC
All of this can be fixed, its just to up us to fix it...