12th scale GTP to 5 minutes?
07-11-2007, 03:13 PM
#47
I've always maintained that interest would go up in BOTH TC and 1/12 if racers were restricted to one class per car type. If you want more track time, you race both TC and 1/12. Unfortunately, few race promotors will support this idea since initially it would mean less $$$ from entries. There would always be another promotor offering drivers the opportunity to run multiple classes with the same car type. This partly the result of "self-sanctioned" racing....each event trying to out-do the other at the expense of what might actually help racing, and then hiding behind the "just giving the racers what they want" excuse.
This also partly solves the hotly-debated "sandbagging" issue. Mod drivers in 19T, and 19T "semi-pros" in stock. After all, you can't force somebody to run in a particular class. Besides, last week someone posted that "Stock is a class, not an ability level", and I agree with that.
But I'm not going to turn this thread into another long-winded discussion on those topics...there's other places for that.
As to the initial point of this thread...leave it at 8 minutes. That's part of the appeal. Heck, if anything I'd be in favor of extending the race length.
This also partly solves the hotly-debated "sandbagging" issue. Mod drivers in 19T, and 19T "semi-pros" in stock. After all, you can't force somebody to run in a particular class. Besides, last week someone posted that "Stock is a class, not an ability level", and I agree with that.
But I'm not going to turn this thread into another long-winded discussion on those topics...there's other places for that.
As to the initial point of this thread...leave it at 8 minutes. That's part of the appeal. Heck, if anything I'd be in favor of extending the race length.
07-11-2007, 03:19 PM
#48
was not talking about rc scoring pro I was talkinfg about RC PRO they run races all around the USA with 6+ classes and have ten min Qs
we are not talking about 8 races we are talking about 8min races
all we are stating is LEAVE 1/12 alone as it been around longer then any class out there besides 1/8 onroad
we are not talking about 8 races we are talking about 8min races
all we are stating is LEAVE 1/12 alone as it been around longer then any class out there besides 1/8 onroad
07-11-2007, 05:24 PM
#50
[move soapbox hijack thread]
a couple years ago a couple of our local guys came up with a tristate series between onroad tracks in GA TN and AL. the first year we ran sportman tc, stock tc, mod tc, nitro tc, 12th stock, 12th mod 50 guys with 8 to 10 in a class. the next year we went all nitro tc and 19t tc and 19t 12th and I thought it was a blast. it was 20 to 30 in a class and you had to work at it to win the "B" you could run stock and would probably win the "C" and if you were smart, you would think that you did something good. but all the winers said why should I ran the series when I don't have a chance to win a class. they didn't get the fact that winning the "C" was winning the "C" class and that the racing was closer to people that you could compete with, instead of beating 2nd place by 2 laps. some people just don't get it. I think that the gate and trackside did something with having the stock invite and the stock rubber nationals. it's 2 classes or one class. the entree is down but it's some of the most close racing I have seen in a while at that level event. and I personally thought it was fun also. take it back to what it was, you run stock and you run mod, 12th and tc, you can't run tc stock if you run tc mod. 4 classes. and then you know what's what! personally I would like to have the 12th scale nationals. so ok you could run stock 19 and mod but atleast you would get to have the satifaction of knowing the track wasn't geared to TC or TC rubber or easy change for oval. heck trackside has the TC nationals. why not a 12th scale nationals.
[put back soapbox]
a couple years ago a couple of our local guys came up with a tristate series between onroad tracks in GA TN and AL. the first year we ran sportman tc, stock tc, mod tc, nitro tc, 12th stock, 12th mod 50 guys with 8 to 10 in a class. the next year we went all nitro tc and 19t tc and 19t 12th and I thought it was a blast. it was 20 to 30 in a class and you had to work at it to win the "B" you could run stock and would probably win the "C" and if you were smart, you would think that you did something good. but all the winers said why should I ran the series when I don't have a chance to win a class. they didn't get the fact that winning the "C" was winning the "C" class and that the racing was closer to people that you could compete with, instead of beating 2nd place by 2 laps. some people just don't get it. I think that the gate and trackside did something with having the stock invite and the stock rubber nationals. it's 2 classes or one class. the entree is down but it's some of the most close racing I have seen in a while at that level event. and I personally thought it was fun also. take it back to what it was, you run stock and you run mod, 12th and tc, you can't run tc stock if you run tc mod. 4 classes. and then you know what's what! personally I would like to have the 12th scale nationals. so ok you could run stock 19 and mod but atleast you would get to have the satifaction of knowing the track wasn't geared to TC or TC rubber or easy change for oval. heck trackside has the TC nationals. why not a 12th scale nationals.
[put back soapbox]
07-11-2007, 06:13 PM
#51
it's a shame that 12th scale doesn't get the reconition that it should have as the hardest class to drive hands down. TC is for rookies and track time. 12th scale will always be faster even with 4 cell and even more now that tc is going to 5 cell. all TC cars are the bastard children of tamiya and HPI
Someone finally said it!
07-11-2007, 06:28 PM
#52
Tech Adept
Waaaaay back in the day, when Cleveland was a 12th scale only race. Entries were limited to 300, but they always filled out the final class in both Stock and Mod, so it ended up at 320. So, 32 8 minute heats is about what you can run. They ran a very tight program, but probably could have tightened it up a bit and could maybe run 350 racers. But that is about it.
And... Back then, it was 320 racers, not just entries. You were only allowed to enter one class... either Stock or Mod. If I recall, it was usually about 180 to 200 Stock and the rest were Mod. If you won, you earned it. Racing was good, racing was competitive and we had fun.
Unfortunately, it has to be about money. The race promoters need to find a way to at least make it break even, so more entries helps. Someday, ROAR may change the rules for their sanctioned events, but I doubt we'll ever see the non-ROAR sanctioned races go back to one entry per racer per car type.
Definitely leave 12th scale at 8 minutes. It's the biggest reason that it is making such a strong comeback. Plus, they just fit on the smaller carpet tracks so much better.
And... Back then, it was 320 racers, not just entries. You were only allowed to enter one class... either Stock or Mod. If I recall, it was usually about 180 to 200 Stock and the rest were Mod. If you won, you earned it. Racing was good, racing was competitive and we had fun.
Unfortunately, it has to be about money. The race promoters need to find a way to at least make it break even, so more entries helps. Someday, ROAR may change the rules for their sanctioned events, but I doubt we'll ever see the non-ROAR sanctioned races go back to one entry per racer per car type.
Definitely leave 12th scale at 8 minutes. It's the biggest reason that it is making such a strong comeback. Plus, they just fit on the smaller carpet tracks so much better.
07-12-2007, 01:31 AM
#53
Tech Apprentice
Ok,
Another few cents here...
Keep 12th as it is... Its a WORLD CLASS, it is a simple formula for all racers around the globe. It is run the same all over our planet, 4 cell foam MOD or 19turn (or 10,5 BL) a few body's are possible etc... It is a cheap DRIVERS class... the driver wins, not the car, you can easily run an L3 today and still make the A main... Keep it, it's keeping the fun in racing, excitement & my wallet
If you change anything, change the TC class it is undergoing many changes at this moment anyway.
For the big races, well that's up to the organiser of the event, he 's the one that makes the decisions and if you don't agree... then don't go... Or organise your own event and see what you can do with your "ideal" formula... That way the racers that don't really care can have another event to compete
Another few cents here...
Keep 12th as it is... Its a WORLD CLASS, it is a simple formula for all racers around the globe. It is run the same all over our planet, 4 cell foam MOD or 19turn (or 10,5 BL) a few body's are possible etc... It is a cheap DRIVERS class... the driver wins, not the car, you can easily run an L3 today and still make the A main... Keep it, it's keeping the fun in racing, excitement & my wallet
If you change anything, change the TC class it is undergoing many changes at this moment anyway.
For the big races, well that's up to the organiser of the event, he 's the one that makes the decisions and if you don't agree... then don't go... Or organise your own event and see what you can do with your "ideal" formula... That way the racers that don't really care can have another event to compete
07-12-2007, 05:51 AM
#54
[move soapbox hijack thread]
a couple years ago a couple of our local guys came up with a tristate series between onroad tracks in GA TN and AL. the first year we ran sportman tc, stock tc, mod tc, nitro tc, 12th stock, 12th mod 50 guys with 8 to 10 in a class. the next year we went all nitro tc and 19t tc and 19t 12th and I thought it was a blast. it was 20 to 30 in a class and you had to work at it to win the "B" you could run stock and would probably win the "C" and if you were smart, you would think that you did something good. but all the winers said why should I ran the series when I don't have a chance to win a class. they didn't get the fact that winning the "C" was winning the "C" class and that the racing was closer to people that you could compete with, instead of beating 2nd place by 2 laps. some people just don't get it. I think that the gate and trackside did something with having the stock invite and the stock rubber nationals. it's 2 classes or one class. the entree is down but it's some of the most close racing I have seen in a while at that level event. and I personally thought it was fun also. take it back to what it was, you run stock and you run mod, 12th and tc, you can't run tc stock if you run tc mod. 4 classes. and then you know what's what! personally I would like to have the 12th scale nationals. so ok you could run stock 19 and mod but atleast you would get to have the satifaction of knowing the track wasn't geared to TC or TC rubber or easy change for oval. heck trackside has the TC nationals. why not a 12th scale nationals.
[put back soapbox]
a couple years ago a couple of our local guys came up with a tristate series between onroad tracks in GA TN and AL. the first year we ran sportman tc, stock tc, mod tc, nitro tc, 12th stock, 12th mod 50 guys with 8 to 10 in a class. the next year we went all nitro tc and 19t tc and 19t 12th and I thought it was a blast. it was 20 to 30 in a class and you had to work at it to win the "B" you could run stock and would probably win the "C" and if you were smart, you would think that you did something good. but all the winers said why should I ran the series when I don't have a chance to win a class. they didn't get the fact that winning the "C" was winning the "C" class and that the racing was closer to people that you could compete with, instead of beating 2nd place by 2 laps. some people just don't get it. I think that the gate and trackside did something with having the stock invite and the stock rubber nationals. it's 2 classes or one class. the entree is down but it's some of the most close racing I have seen in a while at that level event. and I personally thought it was fun also. take it back to what it was, you run stock and you run mod, 12th and tc, you can't run tc stock if you run tc mod. 4 classes. and then you know what's what! personally I would like to have the 12th scale nationals. so ok you could run stock 19 and mod but atleast you would get to have the satifaction of knowing the track wasn't geared to TC or TC rubber or easy change for oval. heck trackside has the TC nationals. why not a 12th scale nationals.
[put back soapbox]
Good GOD, what a moving post.... I agree. Stock and Mod. Hell I'll even give a vote for Masters. 19t is nothing more than a class that gives the well-funded Mod and Stock drivers an opportunity for more track time at a major event. I know it was envisioned as the stepping stone from Stock to full-blown Mod, but anyone who's ever been to a major event knows what I'm saying. I say down with 19t Let's get back to one class per car type per person.
07-12-2007, 07:10 AM
#55
even at local tracks
12th scale...first blamed when it comes to races running to long or late due to the extra 3 minutes in the heats. Even when there is only one heat of the 12th entries. i have run out of fingers and am working on toes when it comes to dealing with tracks/owners claiming major time savings of over an hour could be gained by going to 5 min in 12th.
it's even funnier when you look at the class breakdowns and entries that are run 3 quals and a main (4 heats) that 12 min would make a difference.
*= more than 10 entires
sedan
- foam 27T
- foam 19T
- rubber 27T *
- rubber 19T
mini
12th
it's even funnier when you look at the class breakdowns and entries that are run 3 quals and a main (4 heats) that 12 min would make a difference.
*= more than 10 entires
sedan
- foam 27T
- foam 19T
- rubber 27T *
- rubber 19T
mini
12th
07-12-2007, 07:25 AM
#56
That 3 minutes also is a "pure" 3 minutes as there's no "staging" time before or after...the cars are already on the track.
MOST races I've been to would save FAR more time by starting heats IMMEDIATELY 2 (or 3) minutes after the preceeding heat ends rather than giving taxicab racers whatever time they need to repair whatever it was they bashed apart in their last heat. Yeah, you're throwing this guy or that guy a bone, but at the expense of EVERYBODY in the house. If they had to meet time discipline maybe they'd actually DRIVE the cars (yeah, that's a lot to ask...
)
Another time waster...two of the larger events I attended last year were using scoring programs that are, apparently, only shortly removed from tallying laps in marker on your hand, then counting your fingers when the heat is over. It took two hours at BOTH events (and these were completely different clubs) to sort mains after a final quallie on Sunday. Resorts? Fuggedaboudit. If a RD is moaning about time when I'M around he'd best be using a program that git's 'er done...and most of these freeware programs ain't doin' it.
MOST races I've been to would save FAR more time by starting heats IMMEDIATELY 2 (or 3) minutes after the preceeding heat ends rather than giving taxicab racers whatever time they need to repair whatever it was they bashed apart in their last heat. Yeah, you're throwing this guy or that guy a bone, but at the expense of EVERYBODY in the house. If they had to meet time discipline maybe they'd actually DRIVE the cars (yeah, that's a lot to ask...
)Another time waster...two of the larger events I attended last year were using scoring programs that are, apparently, only shortly removed from tallying laps in marker on your hand, then counting your fingers when the heat is over. It took two hours at BOTH events (and these were completely different clubs) to sort mains after a final quallie on Sunday. Resorts? Fuggedaboudit. If a RD is moaning about time when I'M around he'd best be using a program that git's 'er done...and most of these freeware programs ain't doin' it.
07-12-2007, 07:36 AM
#57
So VERY TRUE
....MOST races I've been to would save FAR more time by starting heats IMMEDIATELY 2 (or 3) minutes after the preceeding heat ends rather than giving taxicab racers whatever time they need to repair whatever it was they bashed apart in their last heat. Yeah, you're throwing this guy or that guy a bone, but at the expense of EVERYBODY in the house...
...
...
07-12-2007, 07:56 AM
#58
you could get rid of warm up laps and ifmar qualifing too (leave it for Ifmar races) and save some time. There use to be a time when the qualifiers were start at tone like the mains. On the local level, it felt like you had 4 races, not 3 practice runs and the 1 main race like todays programs. Battery capacity was to low to run practice laps without fear of dumping in your race.
07-12-2007, 08:15 AM
#59
THERE'S some new math for you...
"Warm-up" laps add NO time...as long as you're at the line when the start is due. Otherwise yer half a lap down brother...better drive like the wind.
IFMAR starts add, what, MAYBE 10 seconds to each heat. Nah, leave 'em in...otherwise the guy who gets seeded first in the first round carries that advantage all day. The idea is that qualifying ISN'T a race...it's qualifying, but there's always at least one guy in every heat who's going to "win" qualifying and takes out half the field in turn one.
"Warm-up" laps add NO time...as long as you're at the line when the start is due. Otherwise yer half a lap down brother...better drive like the wind.
IFMAR starts add, what, MAYBE 10 seconds to each heat. Nah, leave 'em in...otherwise the guy who gets seeded first in the first round carries that advantage all day. The idea is that qualifying ISN'T a race...it's qualifying, but there's always at least one guy in every heat who's going to "win" qualifying and takes out half the field in turn one.
07-12-2007, 12:11 PM
#60
Tech Master
Might as well put my 2p worth in....
I love racing 12th circuit and have done for many years. What I liked about it years ago was that you could not just throttle jam for the whole race as you would dump with half the heat remaining. You had to judge how much throtttle you used at certain parts of the heat to be able to judge if you would go flat or not. You might be able to leave the guy behind but at some point you would have to back off meaning that that guy behind night get you towards the end of the heat. That used to be great fun and that part of 12th racing has gone now as new battery technology had come along. I started with 1200mAh packs back then and now what is it? 4300 or even 4700mAh? Crazy!
Something else to think about is that 12th is usually pack out when it comes to nationals or whatever because of the limited amount of time availible for the meeting. Its great for the meetings as all of them are full but not so good for someone that would like to have a go at competing at say, just a few of the more local races.
Overall, many of the other forms of RC racing have suffered with regards to rules and breaking up mod, brushless, 19t and stock, with 12th racing, if it ait broke, don't fix it!!
Cheers all, Chris.
I love racing 12th circuit and have done for many years. What I liked about it years ago was that you could not just throttle jam for the whole race as you would dump with half the heat remaining. You had to judge how much throtttle you used at certain parts of the heat to be able to judge if you would go flat or not. You might be able to leave the guy behind but at some point you would have to back off meaning that that guy behind night get you towards the end of the heat. That used to be great fun and that part of 12th racing has gone now as new battery technology had come along. I started with 1200mAh packs back then and now what is it? 4300 or even 4700mAh? Crazy!
Something else to think about is that 12th is usually pack out when it comes to nationals or whatever because of the limited amount of time availible for the meeting. Its great for the meetings as all of them are full but not so good for someone that would like to have a go at competing at say, just a few of the more local races.
Overall, many of the other forms of RC racing have suffered with regards to rules and breaking up mod, brushless, 19t and stock, with 12th racing, if it ait broke, don't fix it!!
Cheers all, Chris.