ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-10-2008, 11:11 AM
#751
Here is another thought, by slowing down the "stock" class won't batteries become even more important than they already are? While Bob-Stormer has done a good job outlying a consistency error in driving, nonetheless no matter how consistent you are and how good your setup if the guy driving the fastest car is just as consistent and has better batteries he will win. Everyone pretty much agrees that the faster a car is the less the batteries and motor come into play, by reverse logic you can infer that the slower a car is the more important batteries and motor are. I guess what I am trying to say is if a 13.5 is already too much to handle for most drivers on a tight track then batteries are not a big concern for them because it just adds to the problem. But if we all start racing a 17.5 in "stock" and people are able to drive it more consistent everyone will be looking for that next edge is speed. And no, lipo will not fix the issue because in stock a good nimh pack has more power than a lipo.
01-10-2008, 11:17 AM
#752
My .02............not that anybody cares
17.5 should be the stock class. Its slow enough that the factory stock guys won't run it, but its fast enough that the average racer will still have alot of fun.
13.5 should be the mid level class.....very fast lap times, as seen at the novak race last week
both classes should be 6 cell.......that means stick packs, lipo's or matched packs.............nobody is excluded
The mod class should be 5 cell and open motor.....its a big jump from 13.5 six cell.....but its not so fast that only 10 guys in the world can hang onto it
17.5 should be the stock class. Its slow enough that the factory stock guys won't run it, but its fast enough that the average racer will still have alot of fun.
13.5 should be the mid level class.....very fast lap times, as seen at the novak race last week
both classes should be 6 cell.......that means stick packs, lipo's or matched packs.............nobody is excluded
The mod class should be 5 cell and open motor.....its a big jump from 13.5 six cell.....but its not so fast that only 10 guys in the world can hang onto it
this guy is brilliant
01-10-2008, 11:34 AM
#754
Isnt there a saying Doctors Orders !!!
I could not agree more.. i have posted something to this effect on the other thread and it was shot down by everybody and there brother who was NOT at the novak race. If you were at the novak race and saw the times and speeds of the cars you would see this is the correct way to formulate the classes.
I could not agree more.. i have posted something to this effect on the other thread and it was shot down by everybody and there brother who was NOT at the novak race. If you were at the novak race and saw the times and speeds of the cars you would see this is the correct way to formulate the classes.
01-10-2008, 02:31 PM
#755
B/L and lipos...
I have been only racing Stock TC for less than a year, but I'm done with brushed motors and sub C batteries. 
I've missed two race weekends (Full Throttle races) because they Run ROAR rules only. ROAR needs to add a B/L - Lipo class to it's rule book so the local tracks that use it can let guys like me race.
I hope someone from ROAR is reading this. And yes I'm a ROAR member.
I've missed two race weekends (Full Throttle races) because they Run ROAR rules only. ROAR needs to add a B/L - Lipo class to it's rule book so the local tracks that use it can let guys like me race.
I hope someone from ROAR is reading this. And yes I'm a ROAR member.
01-10-2008, 03:50 PM
#756
I have been only racing Stock TC for less than a year, but I'm done with brushed motors and sub C batteries.
I've missed two race weekends (Full Throttle races) because they Run ROAR rules only. ROAR needs to add a B/L - Lipo class to it's rule book so the local tracks that use it can let guys like me race.
I hope someone from ROAR is reading this. And yes I'm a ROAR member.
I've missed two race weekends (Full Throttle races) because they Run ROAR rules only. ROAR needs to add a B/L - Lipo class to it's rule book so the local tracks that use it can let guys like me race.
I hope someone from ROAR is reading this. And yes I'm a ROAR member.
This is nothing new...its has always been this way.
01-10-2008, 03:57 PM
#757
Here is another thought, by slowing down the "stock" class won't batteries become even more important than they already are? While Bob-Stormer has done a good job outlying a consistency error in driving, nonetheless no matter how consistent you are and how good your setup if the guy driving the fastest car is just as consistent and has better batteries he will win.
And to back this up, just look at the results from stock at Cleveland. There are a lot of them with "error factor" done, on this thread.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=199909
On a club level, it's almost not possible for your scenario to happen, The pro's can't even do it. You'll find that the further you go down the mains, the broader and more obvious the "error factor" is.
Unless you're club racing with Chicky, Rott, or Toso, then you've got other problems, and no amount of battery is gonna solve it.
In my official capacity at work, I suppose I should say that "yes, you'll need a LOT of more batterys". But assuming everybody has the same relative cell, and treats them with some respect the results will be the same. Usually the faster guys are also more consistent because they don't ever accidentally run a practice pack in a qualifier. It's part of the package, and needs to be done accurately.
Compare say the Cleveland 1/12th stock results and the 1/12th mod main with some local club stuff, and you'll see it's not going to go down the way you might think.
I think people confuse, slowing down a class, with having slow cars. My error is the same no matter how slow the car gets. If your driving a .450 with a 27t you're gonna very likely drive a .450 with a slower motor. You wouldn't drop to a (.250). you skip a corner with a mod, you fly out 6 feet, skiff a corner with a stock, you skiff out 4 feet the time it takes to get in and back on the line is very similar.
Right now I'm testing silver can motors in 1/12th... I'm appalled at how little a line error you can make and have it really count against you. Doug's voice from RC scoring pro yelling out, 7.2, 7.2, 7.4, 7.2, 7.2 and when he yells out that 7.4, you know where it happened, but seriously, it wasn't that bad... Well, it was.
The good news, based on averages, is that other guys are doing the same thing.
01-10-2008, 04:37 PM
#758
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I think people confuse, slowing down a class, with having slow cars. My error is the same no matter how slow the car gets. If your driving a .450 with a 27t you're gonna very likely drive a .450 with a slower motor. You wouldn't drop to a (.250). you skip a corner with a mod, you fly out 6 feet, skiff a corner with a stock, you skiff out 4 feet the time it takes to get in and back on the line is very similar.
01-10-2008, 05:04 PM
#759
You're right, this is where I am getting confused. With a slower motor you should make less mistakes, thus drive more consistently. This doesn't reflect upon the guy who was already driving consistently because he didn't make very many mistakes to begin with. But I think I understand what you are trying to say; Give the guy who can handle the faster batteries and motor something faster and he will be faster, but give the guy who can't handle it something faster and he will be less consistent. Basically fast guys are fast because they can lay it down with whatever you give them.
Other than that, you hit the nail on the head. Fast guys are fast becase every piece of the puzzle for their car is as exact as it can be. Most pro-level drivers I know have figured out how to polish a turd. They can make anything you give them, more trackworthy.
How ROAR works all this into classes, don't know. When I first started meddling, I mean participating...
in this thread, I don't know that I was thinking broad enough. every class has it's own unique needs. People tend to focus on their unique areas, because it's what they know.Whatever is decided will be a compromise, but I hope it's at the very least a "ballsy" change. I don't even really care what it is... BUT TRY SOMETHING. Don't do a little change, that really has no effect.
01-10-2008, 05:18 PM
#760
Right now I'm testing silver can motors in 1/12th... I'm appalled at how little a line error you can make and have it really count against you. Doug's voice from RC scoring pro yelling out, 7.2, 7.2, 7.4, 7.2, 7.2 and when he yells out that 7.4, you know where it happened, but seriously, it wasn't that bad... Well, it was. The good news, based on averages, is that other guys are doing the same thing.
The good news, based on averages, is that other guys are doing the same thing.
01-10-2008, 05:43 PM
#761
01-10-2008, 05:47 PM
#762
This is how I think it should be:
1. 27t Stock class be left alone. There will be enough guys running brushed motors that the class will still stay alive.
2. 17.5 BL Should also have it's own class. There will also be enough racers to compete in this class on a national level. I think the turn-out numbers would be about the same in both classes.
3. 19t and 13.5 as a pro stock class should be combined. It is fast enough at this point where a little motor competition would be good to come into the ranks.
4. Any brushed motor any brushless motor in open mod. No one can say that they had a faster motor than them or anything like that because the motor choices would be open.
As far as LiPo goes, I think that LiPo should be allowed as long as they add weight to the battery to match that of a NiMh battery pack. I don't see a big deal allowing them in any race as long as there is a weight rule to follow.
In my opinion, this is the most fair and diplomatic way to do things. Everyone is allowed what they want, and nobody's feelings would get hurt. It's a giant RC world out there ladies and gentleman, and the only thing we are doing by bitching about this sort of thing is tearing our hobby apart. We musn't argue about this sort of thing if we ever want newcomers to be a part of racing.
Just my $.02...
1. 27t Stock class be left alone. There will be enough guys running brushed motors that the class will still stay alive.
2. 17.5 BL Should also have it's own class. There will also be enough racers to compete in this class on a national level. I think the turn-out numbers would be about the same in both classes.
3. 19t and 13.5 as a pro stock class should be combined. It is fast enough at this point where a little motor competition would be good to come into the ranks.
4. Any brushed motor any brushless motor in open mod. No one can say that they had a faster motor than them or anything like that because the motor choices would be open.
As far as LiPo goes, I think that LiPo should be allowed as long as they add weight to the battery to match that of a NiMh battery pack. I don't see a big deal allowing them in any race as long as there is a weight rule to follow.
In my opinion, this is the most fair and diplomatic way to do things. Everyone is allowed what they want, and nobody's feelings would get hurt. It's a giant RC world out there ladies and gentleman, and the only thing we are doing by bitching about this sort of thing is tearing our hobby apart. We musn't argue about this sort of thing if we ever want newcomers to be a part of racing.
Just my $.02...
01-10-2008, 06:35 PM
#763
Brushed motors are history so everone needs to wake up and stop talking about them.
Here in the US everyone in mod is running brushless.
There will be no new developments with brushed motors, and I can't see one reason why anyone would want to run a brushed motor.
So stop all the BS, ROAR make up the brushless classes for 08 and lets get things moving forward instead of backward.
Here in the US everyone in mod is running brushless.
There will be no new developments with brushed motors, and I can't see one reason why anyone would want to run a brushed motor.
So stop all the BS, ROAR make up the brushless classes for 08 and lets get things moving forward instead of backward.
01-10-2008, 08:05 PM
#764
Brushed motors are history so everone needs to wake up and stop talking about them.
Here in the US everyone in mod is running brushless.
There will be no new developments with brushed motors, and I can't see one reason why anyone would want to run a brushed motor.
So stop all the BS, ROAR make up the brushless classes for 08 and lets get things moving forward instead of backward.
Here in the US everyone in mod is running brushless.
There will be no new developments with brushed motors, and I can't see one reason why anyone would want to run a brushed motor.
So stop all the BS, ROAR make up the brushless classes for 08 and lets get things moving forward instead of backward.
....Sorry Brushed historians, your time here on earth is done
01-10-2008, 08:50 PM
#765
Bah! You've got no idea what you're talking about! Just kidding. Anyways, I don't know about you, but I haven't seen a mod class run at my local track in ages. Most everyone runs stock or pro stock. I don't know about you, but most people that race can't really control a mod car. It ususally is wayy to fast to be run on most tracks. And the difference between stock and mod times is usually only by a second or so.
I think it has a lot to do with the machismo of running a motor that is too fast but you run it anyways because you're a man with balls and can take it.
C'mon whoever has run mod, you know you're guilty of this. But for the most part, I think stock and super stock is the way to go. I like the idea of running the same motor. Although, all motors are NOT created equal. Damn you motor tuners! 
I think sealed endbell handouts should be used.
I think it has a lot to do with the machismo of running a motor that is too fast but you run it anyways because you're a man with balls and can take it.
C'mon whoever has run mod, you know you're guilty of this. But for the most part, I think stock and super stock is the way to go. I like the idea of running the same motor. Although, all motors are NOT created equal. Damn you motor tuners! I think sealed endbell handouts should be used.