Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-11-2011, 09:29 PM
#181
I've spent a few hours reading and catching up on this thread.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
01-11-2011, 09:32 PM
#182
that is foolishly irresponsible. you know darn well that fixed esc timing and 0 timing are exactly alike unless you have fixed endbell's and identical hardware.
NOTE that even 'spec hardware' is BS because the local cirtix class had problems with people cranking the timing on their speedpasssion cirtix 'sportsman' class fixed timing motors. marketing bs does not equate to equality or fairness.
NOTE that even 'spec hardware' is BS because the local cirtix class had problems with people cranking the timing on their speedpasssion cirtix 'sportsman' class fixed timing motors. marketing bs does not equate to equality or fairness.
If they did that within ROAR they would be.....
01-11-2011, 09:40 PM
#184
Tech Apprentice
Wow... Why does it seem like ROAR is kicking Tekin to the curb? Tekin should be commended as they brought FREE upgradable technology to the table (maybe I'm the only one who remembers the $350+ BD). Value wise, Tekin has been rock solid and there should be no reason to not let it proceed in blinky mode. It seems like they are banning a product that has helped to keep racers at their tracks. Don't forget, laptops were around before the Tekin (i.e. KO and perhaps others).
Are folks going to be gearing their 3.7v 1/12th cars to the moon, and then be complaining because motors are getting burnt up due to heat? Seems we're going backwards here as costs to racers could escalate. I understand that entry points into the hobby must exist, but some seperation between club-level classes must exist because modified is seen less and less at club level.
Are folks going to be gearing their 3.7v 1/12th cars to the moon, and then be complaining because motors are getting burnt up due to heat? Seems we're going backwards here as costs to racers could escalate. I understand that entry points into the hobby must exist, but some seperation between club-level classes must exist because modified is seen less and less at club level.
01-11-2011, 09:41 PM
#185
01-11-2011, 10:50 PM
#188
Tech Legend
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I've spent a few hours reading and catching up on this thread.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
If I was told I need a laptop to go fast not a problem because in this day and age I don't know anyone that don't have a laptop and a cell phone. Maybe 10 years ago but not today when cheap notebook laptop costs 200 bucks or even less. Plus most use the laptop for other things just like the new phones today so another win win.
If you have a good hobbyshop then learning to program the speedo is again not a problem plus at most tracks someone is always around to help. I race for Castle and setup speedos all the time. Part of a sponsored racers job is to help with their companies products and to help get new people into the hobby.
01-12-2011, 12:18 AM
#189
Is it just me or do we go through this constantly with any form of sanctioned motorsports?
"Stock" has always been one of the most expensive and most political classes of racing to the club racer.
The Tekin was one of the technologies that got me back into spec racing. Because I trusted that I could invest in one and not have to be one of those guys buying a new speedo every 6 months AND/OR running pinions almost the size of spurs with 2 fans on the motor and running always on the edge of meltdown.
A couple of years later and I am running the same speedo AND the same motor. So NO DOUBT the Tekin was the low budget answer for me.
And the time I have to spend tuning the speedo is nothing compared to things like cleaning the car/checking bearings/working with tires/etc.
So I have a hard time buying the cost and complexity argument.
Sure, I understand the need for a true spec class for the true novice. It doesn't seem like what we are really talking about here.
Isn't the real issue that any successful spec class eventually gets dominated by drivers that have no business in a novice class?
And if you enforce a novice rule - no one wants to race it.....
?
"Stock" has always been one of the most expensive and most political classes of racing to the club racer.
The Tekin was one of the technologies that got me back into spec racing. Because I trusted that I could invest in one and not have to be one of those guys buying a new speedo every 6 months AND/OR running pinions almost the size of spurs with 2 fans on the motor and running always on the edge of meltdown.
A couple of years later and I am running the same speedo AND the same motor. So NO DOUBT the Tekin was the low budget answer for me.
And the time I have to spend tuning the speedo is nothing compared to things like cleaning the car/checking bearings/working with tires/etc.
So I have a hard time buying the cost and complexity argument.
Sure, I understand the need for a true spec class for the true novice. It doesn't seem like what we are really talking about here.
Isn't the real issue that any successful spec class eventually gets dominated by drivers that have no business in a novice class?
And if you enforce a novice rule - no one wants to race it.....
?
01-12-2011, 01:41 AM
#190
I've spent a few hours reading and catching up on this thread.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
the issue is not whether or not to have an RTR class. the issue is ROAR mandating my equipment illegal for no good reason. further, with fixed timing, now i need to a select rotor, highest voltage batteries and higher motor temps to be competitive. hmm, sounds less like an 'improvement' and more like a plan to boost equipment sales.
as far as my roar membership providing me a voice. how does that work? other than voting you out after you make my equipment obsolete? the timing of that seems fixed.
Last edited by avs; 01-12-2011 at 01:56 AM.
01-12-2011, 02:23 AM
#191
I have a solution but it won't please everyone.
Mod-
Open ESC (whatever you want to afford)
Open motor (whatever you can hang on to)
::If you can drive, this is the class for you::
Stock-
- Zero timing ESCs (blinky mode ESCs allowed)
- 17.5 motors with Zero timing onboard, fixed at the can.
- Open 2S LiPo
::If you can't drive, or want to be a pot-hunter, this is the class for you::
Spec-
- No boosted ESC with no form of adjustment apart from initial calibration. No profiles, no brake force, no start power etc. Basically for the Spec class, ROAR sits down with Tekin, LRP, SP, everyone, and agree to manufacture a ''ROAR Spec'' ESC which uses the same specification components and a profile that is universal between ESCs. Heck, even make it at one of the no-name factories and release it under each brand. Nothing other than an ESC that goes forwards proportionally, and brakes proportionally.
- 21.5 motors with Zero timing onboard, fixed at the can.
- 2S LiPo from ROAR list, max 4000mah, 20C.
- Fixed FDR nominated by track before event
::If you have less than 3 years racing experience, or never competed in a ROAR event before, this is the class for you::
Thinking -
The way I see it, Mod can stay as it is. The quick and the sponsored should gravitate there naturally. Stock is what people are most vocal about, and it doesn't need to be slow (after all, ''stock cars'' such as NASCAR are still doing 200mph) but the biggest moans are outlawing what is already out there. Maybe just get the speeds down a touch by taking away timing. Spec, well read above its obvious it'll slow the cars down to a universal pace, and will put the emphasis back on learning the lines through the corner and setting the chassis up to keep the corner speed up.
Mod is happy, it stays as it is.
Stock is mostly happy, they need to buy a new motor but no new ESC
Spec is happy, they know they have as good a chance as the guy/girl next to them (if they can wheel)
ROAR is happy, they slow the cars down.
Manufacturers are happy, they get to market a new ESC and motor with guarenteed sales.
Drivers are happy, they can concentrate on racing, not what the next guy is packing under the hood.
RCTech isn't happy because its never happy. :P
(suits up for the backlash)
Mod-
Open ESC (whatever you want to afford)
Open motor (whatever you can hang on to)
::If you can drive, this is the class for you::
Stock-
- Zero timing ESCs (blinky mode ESCs allowed)
- 17.5 motors with Zero timing onboard, fixed at the can.
- Open 2S LiPo
::If you can't drive, or want to be a pot-hunter, this is the class for you::
Spec-
- No boosted ESC with no form of adjustment apart from initial calibration. No profiles, no brake force, no start power etc. Basically for the Spec class, ROAR sits down with Tekin, LRP, SP, everyone, and agree to manufacture a ''ROAR Spec'' ESC which uses the same specification components and a profile that is universal between ESCs. Heck, even make it at one of the no-name factories and release it under each brand. Nothing other than an ESC that goes forwards proportionally, and brakes proportionally.
- 21.5 motors with Zero timing onboard, fixed at the can.
- 2S LiPo from ROAR list, max 4000mah, 20C.
- Fixed FDR nominated by track before event
::If you have less than 3 years racing experience, or never competed in a ROAR event before, this is the class for you::
Thinking -
The way I see it, Mod can stay as it is. The quick and the sponsored should gravitate there naturally. Stock is what people are most vocal about, and it doesn't need to be slow (after all, ''stock cars'' such as NASCAR are still doing 200mph
) but the biggest moans are outlawing what is already out there. Maybe just get the speeds down a touch by taking away timing. Spec, well read above its obvious it'll slow the cars down to a universal pace, and will put the emphasis back on learning the lines through the corner and setting the chassis up to keep the corner speed up.Mod is happy, it stays as it is.
Stock is mostly happy, they need to buy a new motor but no new ESC
Spec is happy, they know they have as good a chance as the guy/girl next to them (if they can wheel)
ROAR is happy, they slow the cars down.
Manufacturers are happy, they get to market a new ESC and motor with guarenteed sales.
Drivers are happy, they can concentrate on racing, not what the next guy is packing under the hood.
RCTech isn't happy because its never happy. :P
(suits up for the backlash)
01-12-2011, 04:00 AM
#192
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
odd mentality
racers are indeed a curious lot. We want rules and we want a limited class(es) that set up the guidelines for maintaining a level playing field. Ideally there would be regulations in place that are designed to keep the cars "relatively equal". But then everybody (racers and manufacturers alike) invests time and money looking for ways to make their own car "more equal" than everybody elses. As soon as that happens (and it always does), everybody gets upset about it. By contrast, people who run open mod never complain. They just do the best they can to exploit whatever equipment that they can obtain and they do their talking and their competition on the track. My point is this.........if you don't want to run in a very restrictive class where there's no opportunity to find a "more equal than the others" performance advantage, why don't you just run mod? In racing as it is in life, there are times when it's just not possible to have cake and also to eat cake.
01-12-2011, 04:22 AM
#193
aaah, to have fun, to meet and hang out with new people, aahh, to have stories to tell and share, to smile until your face hurts, to get pissed off, to eat crappy food, to check out that guys smoking hot GF or Wife. I can think of all sorts for reasons besides finishing well to go to a race. finishing well is all good, but I have gone to the IIC and Reedy KNOWING at the time I was sgning up and booking plane tickets and hotel rooms that I would be the C or lower main.
This is why I go racing at a club that allows boosted or non boosted 13.5 or 27t, foam or rubber tyres and is the only sedan class.
Slower guys use rubber tyres so they dont chunk tyres on the boards, with 27t motors to keep costs down and typically are in the lower mains and therefore the faster guys are in the A and out of their way.
I don't care for over complex rules or racing at a bigger event where you feel like a number and not a competitor.
With the right infrastructure and members, club racing is where it's at. (You know the regulars and the rules rarely change for the worse)
But, if you want to race at bigger sanctioned races, expect to see more rules or ones that may not be to everyones liking, as they have to cover a wider range of entrants. (And expect to put yourself in unknown ground, new track, new people, new experiences in general).
Not everyone wants to excel themselves any more than being a club racer or incur the cost of anything more than that level - and there is nothing wrong with that, it's just something you have to understand where you are at yourself.
I'm not saying the rules are always right, but my mentality has always been if I don't like the rules, I race elsewhere where I find the rules to my racing needs...
Casual racing
Organised racing
agree
pick 2.
01-12-2011, 05:08 AM
#194
01-12-2011, 05:22 AM
#195
Tech Addict
iTrader: (1)
I've spent a few hours reading and catching up on this thread.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
Here is what my thoughts are as a 30 year veteran in this hobby/sport, ROAR member for 25 years, and now ROAR's Region 12 Director;
Most of you are complaining about something that doesn't affect you as non-ROAR members. Why?
If you were a member you would have a voice.
Tekin and all other manufacturers will be just fine. They aren't going anywhere because ROAR mandates a rule. They all will now have another product to sell (more than likely the exact same unit as they already make only ROAR legal)
Some of you have good constructive criticism like "using 17.5 boosted as a middle class" thats thinking in the right direction. "A lock out mode software" is also another great idea.
What ROAR is doing is bringing the speed and learning curve back to reality. Think to yourself.... "If I were getting into this hobby as a racer and was told I need a laptop as part of my pit gear to be competitive" would you want to incur that expense? and then try to learn how to program everything when you don't know squat about motors or ESC's in the first place?
This IS about the big picture. It's about the "new blood" and keeping racing appealing, affordable and competitors at the track in the years to come.
Don't know if anyone has brought it to your attention but you do realize that a lot of tracks run Roar rules?? So, in a sense, even though most people are not members, it does affect them. Your saying that everyone thinks that they need a laptop to bring to the track, I don't know about you but at my local track, there is usually more than one person that has a laptop that is more than willing to help said new guy with esc setup.