The future of stock class?
03-09-2004, 03:07 PM
#76
I agree that brushless is too costly now, but that could change. The cost of brushed system isn't under $100 if you consider everything you need to be competitive. Of course that doesn't really affect the novice, but it depends. A lathe, etc. etc. add up. I like the idea of Mabuchi, but it would have to be a handout at a race.
03-09-2004, 03:38 PM
#77
Tech Regular
At my local track, sometimes at the Friday night club races we race 8min mains in stock, it is extremely fun, not only do you have to gear right, but your car must stay in one piece the whole time.
03-09-2004, 03:55 PM
#78
Tech Elite
The future of stock class?
Some valid points to consider.
1) If you use "Rebuildable Stocks" as the handout, you still have the same thing going on in the pits.
2) Mabuchi hand outs would lessen "Tweaking" in the pits, but lack of rebulidability (sic) would make for a very short competitive lifetime.
Really to make it a "Drivers" race, you need to have handout Cars like the IROC in Nascar. No tampering allowed.
1) If you use "Rebuildable Stocks" as the handout, you still have the same thing going on in the pits.
2) Mabuchi hand outs would lessen "Tweaking" in the pits, but lack of rebulidability (sic) would make for a very short competitive lifetime.
Really to make it a "Drivers" race, you need to have handout Cars like the IROC in Nascar. No tampering allowed.
03-09-2004, 04:11 PM
#79
PitCrew, Why?? There would be no difference in the type of motors or the type of batteries. And this has nothing to do with too much speed....this has to do with to much investment in time, money and frustration for new drivers and/or the people who support them.
Scenario(figures only used for example)
Novice/Beginner with TC3 . According to "spec" he has a 3300 factory labeled pack with an ir range of 1.0-1.2. He uses a Factory only (no tuner companies) 27t 24deg. motor. The motor must go through all qualifying runs and the main without comm cutting. A comm stick is allowed. Brushes and springs must be the type installed at the factory. Installed brushes and springs must be used for qualifying and main. His car can be any 4wd tc chassis but must not have any structural changes from factory form ie:no widening or relocating of battery slots.
If there is a Sportsman class offered between Novice and Expert, you could spec this also allowing for additional battery performance , motor tuning options , and possible chassis mods.
Experts would pretty much be the way the whole stock class is now !!! No holds barred cut it, tweak it, zapp it, dyno it, etc., etc....
Some common sense would have to be applied for those rare occasions when somebody burns up a motor ...but for the most part this would be very simple to institute.
Regarding buying all new stuff later....That would be a natural progression of skill and performance needs. Better batts and tuner motors are fine but at least this person has had the oppurtunity to learn and race competitively without breaking the bank on lathes, dynos, motor building tools, zappers, expert setup tools, etc. Replacing equipment is also nothing new and quite expected. It's a whole lot easier to do though if you're educated about and dedicated to the hobby.
Scenario(figures only used for example)
Novice/Beginner with TC3 . According to "spec" he has a 3300 factory labeled pack with an ir range of 1.0-1.2. He uses a Factory only (no tuner companies) 27t 24deg. motor. The motor must go through all qualifying runs and the main without comm cutting. A comm stick is allowed. Brushes and springs must be the type installed at the factory. Installed brushes and springs must be used for qualifying and main. His car can be any 4wd tc chassis but must not have any structural changes from factory form ie:no widening or relocating of battery slots.
If there is a Sportsman class offered between Novice and Expert, you could spec this also allowing for additional battery performance , motor tuning options , and possible chassis mods.
Experts would pretty much be the way the whole stock class is now !!! No holds barred cut it, tweak it, zapp it, dyno it, etc., etc....
Some common sense would have to be applied for those rare occasions when somebody burns up a motor ...but for the most part this would be very simple to institute.
Regarding buying all new stuff later....That would be a natural progression of skill and performance needs. Better batts and tuner motors are fine but at least this person has had the oppurtunity to learn and race competitively without breaking the bank on lathes, dynos, motor building tools, zappers, expert setup tools, etc. Replacing equipment is also nothing new and quite expected. It's a whole lot easier to do though if you're educated about and dedicated to the hobby.
Last edited by Evoracer; 03-09-2004 at 04:37 PM.
03-09-2004, 04:14 PM
#80
I'm saddened by the repeated comments trying to make fixes for "tampering". My God....are we that low a bunch that we have to be concerned with cheating to such a degree !!?? BTW...I think a simple tech process for the top 3 would be enough to solve any cheating.
03-09-2004, 04:41 PM
#81
Tech Adept
This is sounding more and more like the old complaints from people who can't make the 'A' main and think that a spec motor, battery or car will get them there.
If you honestly look at what's going on, the better drivers are making the 'A' and winning. It has little or nothing to do with how much you spend at the club level. It is about spending time learning the car, setting it up properly and practice, practice, practice.
Due to lack of interest in modified, I have run a LOT of stock touring car over the last few years. I DO NOT cut my com very often, usually only after at least 20 to 40 runs or when the com or brushes turn purple. I am in the top 3 pretty much every week running against reasonable competition.
At a national level race like the Snowbirds, I will go that extra mile, because with a very large number of good to great drivers, .01 of a second per lap can make a very big difference on where you place.
Stock class racing only appears more expensive because too many people are unwilling to spend their time, but will spend their money freely. There are very few necessary, expensive hop-ups. In most cases, the chassis you buy can be made very competetive with the purchase of extra springs and shock oils.
I have had discussions with other local racers who swore up and down that I was beating them because of my equipment. I have given them a motor and a battery of mine, and they turned exactly the same number of laps that they did with their equipment. People just don't want to believe that it is their driving ability that is holding them back.
If you honestly look at what's going on, the better drivers are making the 'A' and winning. It has little or nothing to do with how much you spend at the club level. It is about spending time learning the car, setting it up properly and practice, practice, practice.
Due to lack of interest in modified, I have run a LOT of stock touring car over the last few years. I DO NOT cut my com very often, usually only after at least 20 to 40 runs or when the com or brushes turn purple. I am in the top 3 pretty much every week running against reasonable competition.
At a national level race like the Snowbirds, I will go that extra mile, because with a very large number of good to great drivers, .01 of a second per lap can make a very big difference on where you place.
Stock class racing only appears more expensive because too many people are unwilling to spend their time, but will spend their money freely. There are very few necessary, expensive hop-ups. In most cases, the chassis you buy can be made very competetive with the purchase of extra springs and shock oils.
I have had discussions with other local racers who swore up and down that I was beating them because of my equipment. I have given them a motor and a battery of mine, and they turned exactly the same number of laps that they did with their equipment. People just don't want to believe that it is their driving ability that is holding them back.
03-09-2004, 05:21 PM
#82
Begginers perspective
I bought my first RC car Losi XXX-S in early November 2003. I have been learning and practicing ever since.
It has been fun and a struggle.
I think what is needed is a spec car.
I believe if you make it easy and relatively cheap to start racing you will bring people in to the sport in much greater numbers.
I am thinking in terms of a very durable RTR package for around $99.00. The class should be box stock(including TX), with spec battery.
Kyosho makes a mini-z with ESC, proportional steering,etc for that price, I see no reason they could not make a durable 1/18 scale for that price.
It has been fun and a struggle.
I think what is needed is a spec car.
I believe if you make it easy and relatively cheap to start racing you will bring people in to the sport in much greater numbers.
I am thinking in terms of a very durable RTR package for around $99.00. The class should be box stock(including TX), with spec battery.
Kyosho makes a mini-z with ESC, proportional steering,etc for that price, I see no reason they could not make a durable 1/18 scale for that price.
03-09-2004, 05:45 PM
#83
Realistically spec racing has been proven over and over to be a failure sooner or later. It's just the nature of the beast. Even with intentions to cut costs, provide a level playing field, or bring in new racers, it just doesn't survive time. Legends hung around for quite a while but that's about it.
Evoracer, if anything you mentioned is to ever happen it will have to start locally and at the grass roots level then work it's way up from there. It never starts at the national or state level and works down. I'd tend to believe that many shops may not be willing to invest in motors, batteries, brushes, springs and possibly tires when only a very small percentage of their customers would purchase these items. Novices also tend to spend much less than everyone else on top of it. Many tracks simply do not tech unless there's a reason to suspect something because they do not have the resources to do so. ROAR cares nothing about anything under the stock level and that's only one reason you'll almost never see a novice class or spec class at any big time races. One thing that probably almost every racer will tell you that they enjoy about the Snowbirds is the LACK of rules.
On the topic of cheating...it goes hand and hand with racing. From club races to the Snowbirds, cheating goes on at every level. In fact I believe oval racers can be some of the best cheaters I know. I mean that as a compliment
I didn't know of any on-road racers around here who knew how to twist the arms in the Chameleon until some of the oval racers showed them at the Snowbirds several years ago. Next thing you know, if you raced touring and didn't twist a com in 19t, you were getting beat by those that did. After that became such a widespread problem, Trinity had to come out with the Chameleon 2 to prevent all the cheating because you had to know exactly what you were looking for in order to tech it and catch it. The only difference in the two motors is the "locking feature". The original Chameleon then became illegal around here to run on the state series and at some local tracks. Oval lap times are much more consistent and closer in times than on-road and a tenth per lap can mean everything. Oval racers in general usually have the best batteries, are the best at getting the most out their motors and seem to be ahead of all other groups of racers when it comes to figuring out how to get more speed.
Evoracer, if anything you mentioned is to ever happen it will have to start locally and at the grass roots level then work it's way up from there. It never starts at the national or state level and works down. I'd tend to believe that many shops may not be willing to invest in motors, batteries, brushes, springs and possibly tires when only a very small percentage of their customers would purchase these items. Novices also tend to spend much less than everyone else on top of it. Many tracks simply do not tech unless there's a reason to suspect something because they do not have the resources to do so. ROAR cares nothing about anything under the stock level and that's only one reason you'll almost never see a novice class or spec class at any big time races. One thing that probably almost every racer will tell you that they enjoy about the Snowbirds is the LACK of rules.
On the topic of cheating...it goes hand and hand with racing. From club races to the Snowbirds, cheating goes on at every level. In fact I believe oval racers can be some of the best cheaters I know. I mean that as a compliment
I didn't know of any on-road racers around here who knew how to twist the arms in the Chameleon until some of the oval racers showed them at the Snowbirds several years ago. Next thing you know, if you raced touring and didn't twist a com in 19t, you were getting beat by those that did. After that became such a widespread problem, Trinity had to come out with the Chameleon 2 to prevent all the cheating because you had to know exactly what you were looking for in order to tech it and catch it. The only difference in the two motors is the "locking feature". The original Chameleon then became illegal around here to run on the state series and at some local tracks. Oval lap times are much more consistent and closer in times than on-road and a tenth per lap can mean everything. Oval racers in general usually have the best batteries, are the best at getting the most out their motors and seem to be ahead of all other groups of racers when it comes to figuring out how to get more speed.
03-09-2004, 07:00 PM
#84
Originally posted by gotpez
This is sounding more and more like the old complaints from people who can't make the 'A' main and think that a spec motor, battery or car will get them there.
This is sounding more and more like the old complaints from people who can't make the 'A' main and think that a spec motor, battery or car will get them there.
I compliment you on your ability to do so well without all the Gizmos and constant tweaking. That should have been the emphasis of your statement. Unfortunately, you are the exception and not the rule. As I said before, this "spec" idea is for Novice and Sportsman drivers who typically are being force fed the idea that they can't or won't progress to the"A" main level unless they spend on the latest and greatest "tuning" tools.
I think it's a sad commentary that someone can say out loud that cheating is normal, expected and almost revered. This can't be good for any competitive activity. This is not the type of thing we should be advertising as a "normal" aspect of this hobby. I can't think of to many people that would feel comfortable explaining to the parent of a youngster who wishes to spend hundreds of dollars to get involved that cheating is a normal part of the hobby and in addition, you'll need to spend a few more hundred to buy the tools to accomplish the task !! The fact that anybody could feel good about winning because they were able to cheat and not get caught is just plain sad !!!
Niche classes like Legends didn't last for a reason....they're niche classes !!! There's a point where you can go to far. Pushing the idea of a frumpy little 2wd car while many others are racing Xrays just has no selling power !!! The spec idea we're talking about here is based on real world buying patterns and forces very few "niche" purchases. The only thing this spec idea would do is regulate how serious each driver wants to get . But at least they should have that choice !!! At present, stock class has no entry level and no progression. You're either in it ...or your left behind.
03-09-2004, 07:17 PM
#85
One last comment.
To accomplish some of the things you are looking for Dino. My .02
1. Mabuchi motors. They cost near nothing, and will not propel the cars to speeds beginnners, for the most part cannot handle. Lower speeds=more controllable car and less broken parts. Maybe even a fixed gear ratio.
2. Good Club level organization. Nothing beats a well run, well organized race. The rules are enforced and they are fair. This will bring racers back time and again.
3. Any chassis allowed. This enable people to run what they like, and keep them interested in thier models.
4. Great supporting racers. A group of guys that always helps out the new ones.
All of this stuff really starts with us !!!! This really is a good topic
BTW, Dino, your still going to TQ this weekend right ?
To accomplish some of the things you are looking for Dino. My .02
1. Mabuchi motors. They cost near nothing, and will not propel the cars to speeds beginnners, for the most part cannot handle. Lower speeds=more controllable car and less broken parts. Maybe even a fixed gear ratio.
2. Good Club level organization. Nothing beats a well run, well organized race. The rules are enforced and they are fair. This will bring racers back time and again.
3. Any chassis allowed. This enable people to run what they like, and keep them interested in thier models.
4. Great supporting racers. A group of guys that always helps out the new ones.
All of this stuff really starts with us !!!! This really is a good topic
BTW, Dino, your still going to TQ this weekend right ?
03-09-2004, 10:05 PM
#86
Re: The future of stock class?
Originally posted by popsracer
Mabuchi hand outs would lessen "Tweaking" in the pits, but lack of rebulidability (sic) would make for a very short competitive lifetime.
Mabuchi hand outs would lessen "Tweaking" in the pits, but lack of rebulidability (sic) would make for a very short competitive lifetime.
Cost $15 bucks, maintenance costs motor spray and oil, usable life is easily a year if not more when taken care of.
03-09-2004, 10:53 PM
#87
Originally posted by edseb
I agree that brushless is too costly now, but that could change. The cost of brushed system isn't under $100 if you consider everything you need to be competitive. Of course that doesn't really affect the novice, but it depends. A lathe, etc. etc. add up. I like the idea of Mabuchi, but it would have to be a handout at a race.
I agree that brushless is too costly now, but that could change. The cost of brushed system isn't under $100 if you consider everything you need to be competitive. Of course that doesn't really affect the novice, but it depends. A lathe, etc. etc. add up. I like the idea of Mabuchi, but it would have to be a handout at a race.
03-10-2004, 04:36 AM
#88
Regarding can motors. I've been kinda pushing the 27t as the entry level for this spec idea primarily because I've never been quite sure if all TC chassis could even use one. So, who has used a can motor in their car and which chassis is it?? I thought I heard once that cars like the TC3 took some special fitting.
03-10-2004, 03:34 PM
#89
if u have really been listening to this thread, all the new people (like myself) have been saying:
brushless would be a great alternative, no maintanance, even field, cant do much to to motor to get an advantage, u get more time to learn to adjust the chassis.
all the old hands have been saying:
new people would never fork out for brushless..
LOL!
i think brushless is perfect as a few others who stated themselves as new to the hobby have said.
brushless would be a great alternative, no maintanance, even field, cant do much to to motor to get an advantage, u get more time to learn to adjust the chassis.
all the old hands have been saying:
new people would never fork out for brushless..
LOL!
i think brushless is perfect as a few others who stated themselves as new to the hobby have said.
03-10-2004, 04:35 PM
#90
Evoracer - Yep unfortunately the johnson can motors won't just drop into a TC3 it requires some work. Every belt chassis out there will take the johnson can motors though. Not sure about the shafty's.