EP4600's
10-24-2007, 11:07 PM
#76
I really don't know what to make of mod anymore. With 5 cell brushless winning, I'm not sure what that says about the importance of voltage or anything else. I will say, though, that I feel so far removed from mod racing that I barely even pay attention anymore to what people are using. I find the results of stock and 19T much more interesting, and relevant to what I do each week. I don't even aspire to race mod, it seems like far too much trouble. I don't know if others are the same, but when we talk about big races at my track, the discussion is about the stock class. Nobody really cares about the same 10 guys doing mod.
With that in mind, if Brad can win the whole thing with EP's, then they're definitely good enough for me, especially without the headaches. I know a room full of guys that feel the same way.
With that in mind, if Brad can win the whole thing with EP's, then they're definitely good enough for me, especially without the headaches. I know a room full of guys that feel the same way.
10-24-2007, 11:54 PM
#77
Jaysun, u can actually be fairly competive with older cells on the local level...........there are guys around here running stuff thats two years old and still placing top 3 every week........setup and practice go along way on the local level..........on the national or even big race level.......equipment starts to become more of a factor in day to day racing.........I would suggest just sport level stuff if your on a budget.........it takes a lot of practice and dedication where you can actually take advantage of an extra .01 of a volt that cost ya $30 extra bucks.........sure ya can feel it, but taking advantage of it is a whole nother story...........
Vegas was a unique animal this year........many racers who won their class last year did not even make the A.....Brad's car was pretty dialed from what I was told and he would of won with IB or EP........
Are they good enough to win........sure, seems they have gotten to the point.........now just watch the cycle, where they either get obsoleted by the next great thing or worse yet........go the road IB has gone and push the limits to where they go boom boom........all in the name of speed.......
Later EddieO
Vegas was a unique animal this year........many racers who won their class last year did not even make the A.....Brad's car was pretty dialed from what I was told and he would of won with IB or EP........
Are they good enough to win........sure, seems they have gotten to the point.........now just watch the cycle, where they either get obsoleted by the next great thing or worse yet........go the road IB has gone and push the limits to where they go boom boom........all in the name of speed.......
Later EddieO
10-25-2007, 12:20 AM
#78
I really don't know what to make of mod anymore. With 5 cell brushless winning, I'm not sure what that says about the importance of voltage or anything else. I will say, though, that I feel so far removed from mod racing that I barely even pay attention anymore to what people are using. I find the results of stock and 19T much more interesting, and relevant to what I do each week. I don't even aspire to race mod, it seems like far too much trouble. I don't know if others are the same, but when we talk about big races at my track, the discussion is about the stock class. Nobody really cares about the same 10 guys doing mod.
With that in mind, if Brad can win the whole thing with EP's, then they're definitely good enough for me, especially without the headaches. I know a room full of guys that feel the same way.
With that in mind, if Brad can win the whole thing with EP's, then they're definitely good enough for me, especially without the headaches. I know a room full of guys that feel the same way.
Only race mod & have more respect for someone who win`s Mod than a winner of a stock race....
Eddie -O
yes....
hundreds of runs per pack !!!
If I was using Ib`s , they would be expensive paper weights after a few month`s ....
This why I can now club race 3 or 4 days a week these days ....
I never would be able to race this much if I had to buy new packs every few months....
10-25-2007, 10:02 AM
#80
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[quote=The one hole in your argument about racers always demanding what's fastest regardless of longevity is, well, our current situation. In spite of EP's having lower numbers, it seems like matchers can't stock them fast enough to keep up with demand. That seems like good evidence to suggest that there's a limit racers are willing to tolerate when it comes to fragile batteries.[/quote]
The very same still holds true for IB cells however. We had a waiting list of people ready to buy packs after we got them sorted out. 1000 cells and less than a month ago and we're almost out. Have we had some issues with them, yes, I won't lie...but at the same time we've had more satisfied users than people with issues. I've had to limit the sales of the cells to people so that there was enough to go around for everyone else...Our dealer orders alone are more than what most guys buy to match.
I've only had one person ask if we'll stock EP's ... no dealers .. just one user. In time, we might. Everyone I talk to so far though is saying "yeah they seem alright but so and so running the IB had WAY more punch and was faster than me.."
If your statement was the case there would be a mass exodus of people switching to LIPO and EP cells...but give it some more time and you will see, the more people use them the less happy they will be with them. I know a lot of unsatisfied LIPO customers...
The very same still holds true for IB cells however. We had a waiting list of people ready to buy packs after we got them sorted out. 1000 cells and less than a month ago and we're almost out. Have we had some issues with them, yes, I won't lie...but at the same time we've had more satisfied users than people with issues. I've had to limit the sales of the cells to people so that there was enough to go around for everyone else...Our dealer orders alone are more than what most guys buy to match.
I've only had one person ask if we'll stock EP's ... no dealers .. just one user. In time, we might. Everyone I talk to so far though is saying "yeah they seem alright but so and so running the IB had WAY more punch and was faster than me.."
If your statement was the case there would be a mass exodus of people switching to LIPO and EP cells...but give it some more time and you will see, the more people use them the less happy they will be with them. I know a lot of unsatisfied LIPO customers...
10-25-2007, 10:08 AM
#81
For once, I didn't have a LiPo agenda with that statement. It was mostly just an observation that even amongst racers, people are getting fed up enough with the issues they're having to look elsewhere. I think, if anything, it's just a sign that maybe even the serious layman is starting to draw the line on what they're willing to accept to get more voltage. Eddie's point was that racers will always use what's fastest, and he's correct based on history. I was simply trying to point out that right now, with the popularity of EP's, that seems less true than ever before.
10-25-2007, 11:04 AM
#82
I can't take it anymore
you brood guys are killing me.
Lets tell the public the real reason why you don't have EP's..............You don't match your own batteries and the company that does your batteries is strictly an ib company. If this company that does your batteries were to tell you that they are switching to EP's you would be on here telling everybody how great the EP's are.
But since you are stuck with ib's you feel the need to come on here and talk bad about the EP's.
Now if you don't match your own batteries how can you be edjucated on the quality of cells (EP's or ib's) ....oh thats right ....you get all of your information second hand from an ib only company.
NEWS FLASH TO BROOD..........just because you don't carry a product doesn't mean that product is crap.
you brood guys are killing me.Lets tell the public the real reason why you don't have EP's..............You don't match your own batteries and the company that does your batteries is strictly an ib company. If this company that does your batteries were to tell you that they are switching to EP's you would be on here telling everybody how great the EP's are.
But since you are stuck with ib's you feel the need to come on here and talk bad about the EP's.
Now if you don't match your own batteries how can you be edjucated on the quality of cells (EP's or ib's) ....oh thats right ....you get all of your information second hand from an ib only company.
NEWS FLASH TO BROOD..........just because you don't carry a product doesn't mean that product is crap.
10-25-2007, 11:10 AM
#83
NEWS FLASH TO JOSH H......Just because br00d doesn't currently carry EP cells doesn't mean they can't. Unlike some matchers who have exclusive contracts with Trinity and get forced into certain products. br00d has the ability to pick up and sell any product line is deems valuable.
10-25-2007, 12:04 PM
#84
Dear Noob........
While we don't match our own packs.........I have no contract with SMC of any type.....I can leave at a whim or stay as long as they want me.....
As for EPs........I have gotten many samples of the packs, directly from EP, the slingshot guy, and a couple more who tried to convince me the cell was
the next great thing........we ran them........decent pack, but from a racing stand point, we felt they were softer than the IBs......I can at this very moment call and get the cells if I wanted..........problem is I don't.
And really how do you know the quality? Oh, cause Brad tells ya? Cause you certainly are not matching the packs........matching the packs is simply determining the zap voltage, cycles, etc......we have done it before......I found it cheaper and faster to outsource it to Fusion.......then moved to SMC when Fusion could not meet my requirements.......I was sent samples of the IB cell......and it blew away the GP, so we made the switch......
Quality is determined not at the matcher, but on the track......hence why you see people raving or complaining about the cells........we have ran plenty of packs of IB to know the quality issues, along with how much power they put out........we did a lot of testing with the EP4200 and found they were a much softer cell.........durable yes, but we are not into selling durablity, we are into selling speed.......
And again, I have not said the EP was crap........I simply said I don't think from a pure speed standpoint, they are there yet.......though I have not go my own 4600 samples yet.....but from the packs I have seen, they still seem to run softer.....durable though.....
And while our deal for batteries is with SMC........I deal with trinity on a consistent basis (you know, those little motors we sell)......and they have plugged my ear with stuff regarding the EP cell.......
My company was founded on one goal........WINNING.........plain and simple. I use what wins.......no loyalties. Everyone we deal with is told that straight up.....EP, IB, IP, lipo........don't care, if its gonna win snowbirds, then we will be running it......
End result, I am not stuck with anything..........I carry what I want.....and what I want is the stuff that wins the big race.....thats the stuff our customers come to us to buy, they want the same pack Toso used to TQ vegas (IB in case you forgot).....they want the same 7x1 he used to blister the track with his TQ run.......thats what we sell......
EPs have won 2 classes at one race.......one with a sandbaggin pro driver who should of been running mod rubber.......I guess we all forget that IB won everything else......
So in the future, before you go off second hand info regarding my companies contract obligations, you may want to check your sources.......
Later EddieO
While we don't match our own packs.........I have no contract with SMC of any type.....I can leave at a whim or stay as long as they want me.....
As for EPs........I have gotten many samples of the packs, directly from EP, the slingshot guy, and a couple more who tried to convince me the cell was
the next great thing........we ran them........decent pack, but from a racing stand point, we felt they were softer than the IBs......I can at this very moment call and get the cells if I wanted..........problem is I don't.
And really how do you know the quality? Oh, cause Brad tells ya? Cause you certainly are not matching the packs........matching the packs is simply determining the zap voltage, cycles, etc......we have done it before......I found it cheaper and faster to outsource it to Fusion.......then moved to SMC when Fusion could not meet my requirements.......I was sent samples of the IB cell......and it blew away the GP, so we made the switch......
Quality is determined not at the matcher, but on the track......hence why you see people raving or complaining about the cells........we have ran plenty of packs of IB to know the quality issues, along with how much power they put out........we did a lot of testing with the EP4200 and found they were a much softer cell.........durable yes, but we are not into selling durablity, we are into selling speed.......
And again, I have not said the EP was crap........I simply said I don't think from a pure speed standpoint, they are there yet.......though I have not go my own 4600 samples yet.....but from the packs I have seen, they still seem to run softer.....durable though.....
And while our deal for batteries is with SMC........I deal with trinity on a consistent basis (you know, those little motors we sell)......and they have plugged my ear with stuff regarding the EP cell.......
My company was founded on one goal........WINNING.........plain and simple. I use what wins.......no loyalties. Everyone we deal with is told that straight up.....EP, IB, IP, lipo........don't care, if its gonna win snowbirds, then we will be running it......
End result, I am not stuck with anything..........I carry what I want.....and what I want is the stuff that wins the big race.....thats the stuff our customers come to us to buy, they want the same pack Toso used to TQ vegas (IB in case you forgot).....they want the same 7x1 he used to blister the track with his TQ run.......thats what we sell......
EPs have won 2 classes at one race.......one with a sandbaggin pro driver who should of been running mod rubber.......I guess we all forget that IB won everything else......
So in the future, before you go off second hand info regarding my companies contract obligations, you may want to check your sources.......
Later EddieO
10-25-2007, 12:30 PM
#85
Yes and the EP cell won the 2 most hp dependent classes at the iic.........on track performance is incredible and so is the reliability.
So please tell us again how you don't go to races much anymore...but seem to know everything about everything
10-25-2007, 12:43 PM
#86
Wow, big comeback......amazing.
19t is hardly the most HP dependant class......keep telling yourself that.........I have seen dumas win it when his stuff was slower than crap.......Two years ago, travis and peters cars were the fastest on the track.........but Bobby Flack TQed and won, with less HP........
Try watching a modified race.........HP is more important than many people make it out to be........HP lets racers like Paulie run with two different settings in the rear of his car........and still win (Novak 2006)......try that in stock, you won't even make the A.........shows how little you know about stock racing.
As for me not going to the big races, well.......I was at vegas last year and saw many EP drivers over at the Ampdraw booth buy IB packs to keep up.......missed this year.......had two kids out with the chicken poxs, one with the shingles....
I don't go to the big races anymore.......simply cause I have no desire....I do sneak off to local tracks for a bit, mostly staying out of sight, just to see what people are running or doing.........how stuff is working. And just like you, I rely on my team to let me know how stuff is working and or not.......just how every other team does it. That's what the team is for.......R&d......along with product testing......
Later EddieO
19t is hardly the most HP dependant class......keep telling yourself that.........I have seen dumas win it when his stuff was slower than crap.......Two years ago, travis and peters cars were the fastest on the track.........but Bobby Flack TQed and won, with less HP........
Try watching a modified race.........HP is more important than many people make it out to be........HP lets racers like Paulie run with two different settings in the rear of his car........and still win (Novak 2006)......try that in stock, you won't even make the A.........shows how little you know about stock racing.
As for me not going to the big races, well.......I was at vegas last year and saw many EP drivers over at the Ampdraw booth buy IB packs to keep up.......missed this year.......had two kids out with the chicken poxs, one with the shingles....
I don't go to the big races anymore.......simply cause I have no desire....I do sneak off to local tracks for a bit, mostly staying out of sight, just to see what people are running or doing.........how stuff is working. And just like you, I rely on my team to let me know how stuff is working and or not.......just how every other team does it. That's what the team is for.......R&d......along with product testing......
Later EddieO
10-25-2007, 12:57 PM
#87
So which drivers from brood do all your testing.............cause its not Travis Peter or Chris
10-25-2007, 01:24 PM
#88
Shows how little I know about stock racing........what exactly did I say about stock racing??????????? It is hp dependent...thats all I said.
I don't know what world your living in.....but its pretty messed up.
Do you understand what this picture represents Eddie
10-25-2007, 01:30 PM
#89
my only post in this topic
Since whenever I post about batteries, my points are immediately labeled as trying to start another pro-lipo discussion -> I will add the following:
nimh over the course of the last several years has been about going from company to company in an effort to squeeze the last .04v from each cell regardless of the consequences to racing, reliability, durability, and r/c in general. It went from GP to IB to EP (with the battle now between IB and EP,) all the while on-road electric touring car racing has seen a tremendous decline all over the country.
this effort at performance above everything and trying to say that competition and the drive to win demands it is killing on-road racing.
Local racers strive to be championship racers. But when you have to WASTE this much money on new cells that don't last at all, on tires that are good for 1 or 2 runs, on getting new chassis' and hopups every 6 months, and in general paying full price price trying to keep up with others who get things at a discount or free, the end result is that the local racer loses interest and leaves.
WE ARE RACING TOY CARS and nothing that anybody says can contradict that. You can call r/c cars scale racing machines all you want, but they are only toys. R/C is not a sport, it is a hobby where racing occurs, and the more that everyone treats it like life and death - win at all costs - spend whatever it takes, the more it will suffer.
Now back to my pro-lipo stance. You currently have on the market batteries that are half the weight, last cycle after cycle (not forever, but 60, 80 cycles minimum,) and maintain most of their performance from cycle to cycle without maintenance. The batteries are being sandbagged because racers can't use them in sanctioned racing and are forced to weigh them down to compete with nimh in club racing. Plus given their slightly lower voltage at peak, they are at a disadvantage when weighed down. This is the same argument as brushed vs brushless, you are comparing technologies that are not the same and applying the rules for old technology to the new technology.
If you reduce the weight limits in racing by the 5 or 6 ounces that LIPO's save, it is obvious what everyone will use, but while that will help racers and hobbyists, it will hurt the r/c industry. So I wonder which side is being favored?
nimh over the course of the last several years has been about going from company to company in an effort to squeeze the last .04v from each cell regardless of the consequences to racing, reliability, durability, and r/c in general. It went from GP to IB to EP (with the battle now between IB and EP,) all the while on-road electric touring car racing has seen a tremendous decline all over the country.
this effort at performance above everything and trying to say that competition and the drive to win demands it is killing on-road racing.
Local racers strive to be championship racers. But when you have to WASTE this much money on new cells that don't last at all, on tires that are good for 1 or 2 runs, on getting new chassis' and hopups every 6 months, and in general paying full price price trying to keep up with others who get things at a discount or free, the end result is that the local racer loses interest and leaves.
WE ARE RACING TOY CARS and nothing that anybody says can contradict that. You can call r/c cars scale racing machines all you want, but they are only toys. R/C is not a sport, it is a hobby where racing occurs, and the more that everyone treats it like life and death - win at all costs - spend whatever it takes, the more it will suffer.
Now back to my pro-lipo stance. You currently have on the market batteries that are half the weight, last cycle after cycle (not forever, but 60, 80 cycles minimum,) and maintain most of their performance from cycle to cycle without maintenance. The batteries are being sandbagged because racers can't use them in sanctioned racing and are forced to weigh them down to compete with nimh in club racing. Plus given their slightly lower voltage at peak, they are at a disadvantage when weighed down. This is the same argument as brushed vs brushless, you are comparing technologies that are not the same and applying the rules for old technology to the new technology.
If you reduce the weight limits in racing by the 5 or 6 ounces that LIPO's save, it is obvious what everyone will use, but while that will help racers and hobbyists, it will hurt the r/c industry. So I wonder which side is being favored?
Last edited by billjacobs; 10-25-2007 at 02:10 PM.
10-25-2007, 01:54 PM
#90
What's your excuse for keeping the hooker-screwing pothead in the stock class? Doesn't be belong elsewhere, as shown by beating all the factory mod guys in 19T at Snowbirds?