on road nitro a dying breed?
04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
#16
Onroad here in KC is virtually dead, the only track(carpet) is Fastlane. They consolidated the Real RC track at Phill with Fastlane in Blue Springs. The old asphalt track was torn up to build the new out door off road track. The cost of a new electric tourer every year and a new nitro every 3 years has simply priced onroad out of contention. My AE B4 is competive with the new B4.1, not so with my XXXS(without the Matt Francis spur gear adaptor). A new TC6.1 is around $400 and a new MTX5 is like $700. A B4.1 Worlds is at the shop were I work $250 and the electronics for either electric is the same.
B4.1 kit - $230
Brushless ESC - $160
Brushless motor - $80
Steering Servo - $60
LiPo battery - $70
LiPo charger - $70
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total - $770
This is to be somewhat competitive at my club track. You can shave a few bucks here to there on some of the stuff, but this is about average cost.
Now, let us put together that same list for a 200mm onroad nitro (using the Mugen MTX5):
Mugen MTX5 kit - $550
Engine - $400
Servos (2) - $140
Tires - $40 (for a starting set)
Body - $30
Fuel - $25
Glow igniter - $15
Starter box - $70
Rx battery pack - $20
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total cost - $1,390
This is the price of almost 2 of the start-up B4.1 Worlds buggy. And, I did not throw in the price of a good tire truer if you go the foam tire route. Again, you can find bargins here and there on the 200mm kit and support equipment and shave some bucks off the total cost. But, when the cost of a 200mm nitro is about the same as an 8th scale offroad buggy and you can race the buggy almost anywhere, what do you think is most cost effective to the average buyer?
If you throw in the cost of a RTR B4.1 or RTR Losi 2.0 buggy and upgrade as your pocket book allows, at least you are in the racing game at a more cost effective manner.
Xray is at least knows of this and offer racer kits (NT1R and T3R) that are similar to their top-of-the-line products but with composite materials in place of the woven graphite. And, both kits are just as competitive as the upscale versions and can be upgraded if a racer chooses. But for every week club racing, they are perfect.
We all know that hobby/sport is not cheap. However, if the industry doesn't see that it is pricing itself out of the reach of the average guy onroad-wise, then onroad will soon be a niche in the overall racing scheme.
04-12-2012, 10:31 AM
#17
I think nitro onroad has suffered from lack of people dedicated enough to do it.
You can come up with many reasons, but it's still the ultimate in terms of required skill and focus and ability in many areas to do well, with the killer being it's easier to walk away and do something easier in RC these days.
For a little while I though maybe it will die, but these days I more think it will become more focused, a harder discipline done at real tracks that can make full use of what they can do.
At some point though, the cars will have to become quieter, their levels of noise will be their end if the main bodies are not careful.
You can come up with many reasons, but it's still the ultimate in terms of required skill and focus and ability in many areas to do well, with the killer being it's easier to walk away and do something easier in RC these days.
For a little while I though maybe it will die, but these days I more think it will become more focused, a harder discipline done at real tracks that can make full use of what they can do.
At some point though, the cars will have to become quieter, their levels of noise will be their end if the main bodies are not careful.
04-12-2012, 01:53 PM
#18
Tech Initiate
That and around here things run in waves nitro,electric and back. You'll see people get bored and bounce between. It's nice to have a permanent track close too. Parking lot tracks take alot of time and effort to set up right and eventually your help fades away leaving a couple of people doing the work. I'll run electric for a while just to relax sometimes it's nice to plug and play gives me more time to b.s. around at the track.
04-12-2012, 04:22 PM
#19
I dunno about that. They are a bit different to setup because of the off-road based chassis'. But at the last Vegas Grand Prix the GT cars were only 1.5-2 seconds off pace of the 1/10 nitro sedans.
The beauty of the 1/8 GT cars is that they don't need a perfect track or lot to be run on because of their size and the rubber tires.
The beauty of the 1/8 GT cars is that they don't need a perfect track or lot to be run on because of their size and the rubber tires.
...except that the gt cars are junk......it seemed the class would take off and it did here in Toledo for awhile........now it's slowing down........the cars are goofy and handle terrible......you want to save onroad??........get the manufacturers to build pan cars....super simple......and tons of fun with cheap 3 port motors...
I still think getting offroaders back onroad, is at least as important as getting new people into onroad racing. Offroad today is dominated by SC's and 1/8ths. GT8 represents a size more accustom to the offroaders. I personally think tc's and 12th scales onroad just aren't going to draw the interest. Watched the 12th scale pan race, yikes.... I'll pass
Onroad racing really needs to go back to its roots: club/parking lot racing. Offroad racing has surpassed onroad due to it being a tad more affordable (if you don't go the 8th scale buggy/truggy route), the wide availability of tracks to run, and the bigger support for "club" racing. Onroad has been morphing into "big, sanctioned" races only and with the cost of competing at those races, it is becoming out-of-reach for many. Onroad has been "pricing" itself out of the market for a few years now. Until it goes back to its roots, onroad will continue to die a slow death.
Not sure what the answer is either. The tens of thousands for a permanent asphalt track, or an enclosed carpet track is just something that often too much to overcome.
04-12-2012, 04:44 PM
#20
Cost
To expand on your post, at my LHS this is what a AE B4.1 Worlds buggy cost to get started:
B4.1 kit - $230
Brushless ESC - $160
Brushless motor - $80
Steering Servo - $60
LiPo battery - $70
LiPo charger - $70
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total - $770
This is to be somewhat competitive at my club track. You can shave a few bucks here to there on some of the stuff, but this is about average cost.
Now, let us put together that same list for a 200mm onroad nitro (using the Mugen MTX5):
Mugen MTX5 kit - $550
Engine - $400
Servos (2) - $140
Tires - $40 (for a starting set)
Body - $30
Fuel - $25
Glow igniter - $15
Starter box - $70
Rx battery pack - $20
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total cost - $1,390
This is the price of almost 2 of the start-up B4.1 Worlds buggy. And, I did not throw in the price of a good tire truer if you go the foam tire route. Again, you can find bargins here and there on the 200mm kit and support equipment and shave some bucks off the total cost. But, when the cost of a 200mm nitro is about the same as an 8th scale offroad buggy and you can race the buggy almost anywhere, what do you think is most cost effective to the average buyer?
If you throw in the cost of a RTR B4.1 or RTR Losi 2.0 buggy and upgrade as your pocket book allows, at least you are in the racing game at a more cost effective manner.
Xray is at least knows of this and offer racer kits (NT1R and T3R) that are similar to their top-of-the-line products but with composite materials in place of the woven graphite. And, both kits are just as competitive as the upscale versions and can be upgraded if a racer chooses. But for every week club racing, they are perfect.
We all know that hobby/sport is not cheap. However, if the industry doesn't see that it is pricing itself out of the reach of the average guy onroad-wise, then onroad will soon be a niche in the overall racing scheme.
B4.1 kit - $230
Brushless ESC - $160
Brushless motor - $80
Steering Servo - $60
LiPo battery - $70
LiPo charger - $70
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total - $770
This is to be somewhat competitive at my club track. You can shave a few bucks here to there on some of the stuff, but this is about average cost.
Now, let us put together that same list for a 200mm onroad nitro (using the Mugen MTX5):
Mugen MTX5 kit - $550
Engine - $400
Servos (2) - $140
Tires - $40 (for a starting set)
Body - $30
Fuel - $25
Glow igniter - $15
Starter box - $70
Rx battery pack - $20
Decent DSM Tx/Rx - $100
Total cost - $1,390
This is the price of almost 2 of the start-up B4.1 Worlds buggy. And, I did not throw in the price of a good tire truer if you go the foam tire route. Again, you can find bargins here and there on the 200mm kit and support equipment and shave some bucks off the total cost. But, when the cost of a 200mm nitro is about the same as an 8th scale offroad buggy and you can race the buggy almost anywhere, what do you think is most cost effective to the average buyer?
If you throw in the cost of a RTR B4.1 or RTR Losi 2.0 buggy and upgrade as your pocket book allows, at least you are in the racing game at a more cost effective manner.
Xray is at least knows of this and offer racer kits (NT1R and T3R) that are similar to their top-of-the-line products but with composite materials in place of the woven graphite. And, both kits are just as competitive as the upscale versions and can be upgraded if a racer chooses. But for every week club racing, they are perfect.
We all know that hobby/sport is not cheap. However, if the industry doesn't see that it is pricing itself out of the reach of the average guy onroad-wise, then onroad will soon be a niche in the overall racing scheme.
04-12-2012, 05:46 PM
#21
I can put an Edam Razor2 together, it's basically a carbon copy of a Mugen, for a bit less. My total cost including motor, bump box, body and rubber is right around 500, and that includes enough foam for the season. At the same time, some of us are also trying to bring back pan racing (no suspension, 2wd) which I ran years ago and was a lot of fun, projected price of about 400 including everything. I agree on converting some offroads, a buddy of mine is doing that and we've managed to convert an offroad into an onroad, total price for everything including bodies and tires was right at 650.
The main point is that onroad is very pricey as compared to many offroad classes. You have to have specific surfaces to run whereas offroad cars can be run on almost any type of surface. Plus, you can get away with a not-so-perfect setup car in offroad whereas in onroad, that would put you at the bottom of the competition list. However, if the pricing of the onroad kits and support equipment keeps escalating at its current rate, many more that are currently racing the class may opt out due to this.
04-12-2012, 06:29 PM
#22
Like I eluded, what I used in that pricing post was just an example. You can shave dollars off here and there but on average, it is still expensive. If you go to the big ROAR/IFMAR races and want to finish in the top 10, you will spend way more than $500.
The main point is that onroad is very pricey as compared to many offroad classes. You have to have specific surfaces to run whereas offroad cars can be run on almost any type of surface. Plus, you can get away with a not-so-perfect setup car in offroad whereas in onroad, that would put you at the bottom of the competition list. However, if the pricing of the onroad kits and support equipment keeps escalating at its current rate, many more that are currently racing the class may opt out due to this.
The main point is that onroad is very pricey as compared to many offroad classes. You have to have specific surfaces to run whereas offroad cars can be run on almost any type of surface. Plus, you can get away with a not-so-perfect setup car in offroad whereas in onroad, that would put you at the bottom of the competition list. However, if the pricing of the onroad kits and support equipment keeps escalating at its current rate, many more that are currently racing the class may opt out due to this.
compare apples to apples Nitro On Road & Nitro Off Road not much of a price difference Kits are very close in pricing & motors as well
Electric Off Road to Electric On Road do your math the only variables is the cost of the kit Ae T6.1 $370 vs Ae B4.1 $260 $90 difference
On road Tires last a bit longer & are cheaper most tracks are using a spec tire vs off road your arsenal has a wider range based on track conditions
Just remember everything has a cycle right now electric is strong think back 10 years ago it was at the stage that nitro is at now
04-12-2012, 07:31 PM
#23
Tech Fanatic
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+1
I switched from off-road to on-road when our "local" track closed up, and at that time we'd be lucky to get 25 entries. If there was a off-road track closer or if my local on-road track closes down I'd switch back to off-road. It is all cycles.
I switched from off-road to on-road when our "local" track closed up, and at that time we'd be lucky to get 25 entries. If there was a off-road track closer or if my local on-road track closes down I'd switch back to off-road. It is all cycles.
04-16-2012, 10:15 AM
#24
Well
The most affordable way to run nitro is to get an offroad which you can convert into a GT. My cost for everything is about 800 for a car that can be converted either way, with bodies, tires, suspension, bumper, etc. I personally feel that's the future of onroad since you get two cars for the price of one and can do offroad and onroad with about an hour of work to change from one to the other.
04-16-2012, 12:01 PM
#25
The most affordable way to run nitro is to get an offroad which you can convert into a GT. My cost for everything is about 800 for a car that can be converted either way, with bodies, tires, suspension, bumper, etc. I personally feel that's the future of onroad since you get two cars for the price of one and can do offroad and onroad with about an hour of work to change from one to the other.
04-16-2012, 12:18 PM
#26
Like many of you are stating...nitro is getting more expensive.
04-16-2012, 01:19 PM
#27
not realy..good deals on fleabay every day on nitro buggys you can start with a used lx ofna dirt cheap throw on a set of low dollar slicks on budget wheels..and yer off..!!!...It's best to bid on something that comes with support gear,like an rtr it's far cheaper than almost any 1/8 brushless set up.granted you got fuel cost witch is very high.but a balancer a charger lipo's.that stuff ain't that cheap either....so cost isn't a huge factor,parking lots with 3 or 4 of theese converted buggys is big fun.as far as tuneing goes if you don't mind learning its realy not dificult. plug and play is not any fun as far as I'm concerned.an idle mind never grows....Oh yea my signature avitar is now the street GT that I run now. the pbs (pivot ball suspension) version gives you total adjustable set up.wether it be oval or track even dirt oval...so actualy 1/8 nitro buggys are easy to convert to anything you realy want or need.just my little take.
04-16-2012, 01:25 PM
#28
Well....
not realy..good deals on fleabay every day on nitro buggys you can start with a used lx ofna dirt cheap throw on a set of low dollar slicks on budget wheels..and yer off..!!!...It's best to bid on something that comes with support gear,like an rtr it's far cheaper than almost any 1/8 brushless set up.granted you got fuel cost witch is very high.but a balancer a charger lipo's.that stuff ain't that cheap either....so cost isn't a huge factor,parking lots with 3 or 4 of theese converted buggys is big fun.as far as tuneing goes if you don't mind learning its realy not dificult. plug and play is not any fun as far as I'm concerned.an idle mind never grows....
04-16-2012, 01:29 PM
#29
No, Nitro is not becomming more expensive. Look arround on these forums, when a beginner wants a good engine to start with he gets the advise to buy the most expensive engines preferdly modified by a modder to start with.
Also a lot of people are "fasion victims", their car, transmitter, tools and pitplace must look good, even if the colored options does not provide performance is no issue. Please... performance can not be bought but must come from your knowledge to setup and drive a car.
And do not talk about getting tires at 78mm and tru them down to 73mm.
Most professional drivers do set these examples and others do follow. If people just start to learn how to setup and drive a car without all the bullshssst arround it they will see that they can go fast without those side products.
Also a lot of people are "fasion victims", their car, transmitter, tools and pitplace must look good, even if the colored options does not provide performance is no issue. Please... performance can not be bought but must come from your knowledge to setup and drive a car.
And do not talk about getting tires at 78mm and tru them down to 73mm.
Most professional drivers do set these examples and others do follow. If people just start to learn how to setup and drive a car without all the bullshssst arround it they will see that they can go fast without those side products.
04-16-2012, 01:44 PM
#30
No, Nitro is not becomming more expensive. Look arround on these forums, when a beginner wants a good engine to start with he gets the advise to buy the most expensive engines preferdly modified by a modder to start with.
Also a lot of people are "fasion victims", their car, transmitter, tools and pitplace must look good, even if the colored options does not provide performance is no issue. Please... performance can not be bought but must come from your knowledge to setup and drive a car.
And do not talk about getting tires at 78mm and tru them down to 73mm.
Most professional drivers do set these examples and others do follow. If people just start to learn how to setup and drive a car without all the bullshssst arround it they will see that they can go fast without those side products.
Also a lot of people are "fasion victims", their car, transmitter, tools and pitplace must look good, even if the colored options does not provide performance is no issue. Please... performance can not be bought but must come from your knowledge to setup and drive a car.
And do not talk about getting tires at 78mm and tru them down to 73mm.
Most professional drivers do set these examples and others do follow. If people just start to learn how to setup and drive a car without all the bullshssst arround it they will see that they can go fast without those side products.