Why are we Dumbing down our hobby??
01-13-2005, 09:01 AM
#136
Tech Rookie
Originally posted by Windsorguy99
Yet another bad example....I gave my bad example earlier lol...
Windows did dumb down computers to a large extent...but by doing so made it available to the masses because the GUI was inherently easier to use...
I still do miss DOS though as I feel that Windows based programs ahve gotten unnecessarily sloppy as more focus has been put on the presentation than the contentandorganizationin many instances.
Yet another bad example....I gave my bad example earlier lol...
Windows did dumb down computers to a large extent...but by doing so made it available to the masses because the GUI was inherently easier to use...
I still do miss DOS though as I feel that Windows based programs ahve gotten unnecessarily sloppy as more focus has been put on the presentation than the contentandorganizationin many instances.
And Windsorguy99, that was an excellent post that pretty much summed it up. It all boils down to everyone helping each other out, learning from each other, helping the newbs to NOT have unrealistic expectations by telling them thier RTR cars will be ready for the top slot out of the box, that they will need to run that car, that they WILL hit the wall, that they WILL break parts on the car, and WILL have to practice to get good.
Ive never heard people in a hobby complain about things that are done trying to get more people into that hobby.
01-13-2005, 09:02 AM
#137
After keeping up with this post for two days and reading through 5 pages, I guess I will drop my $0.02 in the pot.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
01-13-2005, 09:04 AM
#138
Originally posted by 403forbidden
Of course not, you have a special splace in my heart.
Of course not, you have a special splace in my heart.
Last edited by speedxl; 01-13-2005 at 09:10 AM.
01-13-2005, 09:05 AM
#139
With all of that said, I am still for helping out the new racers but it would be nice if they took the extra time to understand: a) what they have gotten into, b) the time it will take to "get good", and c) knowing their car inside and out. An RTR takes point C out of the equation and many don't want to back into that point.
01-13-2005, 09:12 AM
#140
Originally posted by JLock
After keeping up with this post for two days and reading through 5 pages, I guess I will drop my $0.02 in the pot.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
After keeping up with this post for two days and reading through 5 pages, I guess I will drop my $0.02 in the pot.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
01-13-2005, 09:18 AM
#141
Originally posted by speedxl
You hit the nail on the head!
You hit the nail on the head!
01-13-2005, 09:37 AM
#142
Originally posted by JLock
Thanks speedxl. Many responding to this thread have missed the point and a few that get it just could express or get their point across. RTR's and brushless motor have their place, but conviction and commitment are the key factors being overlooked from the individual.
Thanks speedxl. Many responding to this thread have missed the point and a few that get it just could express or get their point across. RTR's and brushless motor have their place, but conviction and commitment are the key factors being overlooked from the individual.
Then there was stock and mod.
What they did if you won a state championship in stock the following year you were moved up to mod!
this would also work on a national level.
But point is you progressed with your skill, and if you were a newbie you only delt with the winner till the next guy got faster if you didnt get better it was your own fault.
There should be a place for newbies to learn and grow over time to learn and hone their tunning and driving skills maybe tracks should bring back boxstock with mabuci 540's to make it more affordable have them run stick packs.
Here in Florida we have a mentor program they have a vet watch over a newbie and make sure he isnt fustrated. Go to the florida site and see how many tracks we have and you will notice they all have a good racer base!
01-13-2005, 09:59 AM
#143
Tech Champion
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Peoples Republic of Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,682
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I'll step right with both feet turned backwards.....
RTR vs kit.. RTR to try out the hobby and kit is when you decide to get into the hobby.
How many kits/rtr out there can you find that has all the hop-ups included? ( including the radio, motor and ESC )
The conflicting info about RC in the internet, both by racers and vendors...
Batteries:
Example 1: leading battery vendors, 1 says dead-short the other say do not ever dead-short.
Motor: How/when to tune/rebuild your motor, brushes/springs, locked endbell.......
Gearing 32/48/64 pitch.. Confusing info, just try a google search on this.....
Radios/ESC: do I really need to put enything here???
Racing events ( not to be confused with local racing )
Motors: ROAR legal vs mets ROAR
Example: Trinity stock MOSTER vs EPIC stock.
Reason: Cheating/bending/meeting the sprit of the rules etc.
Bodies: must be 4 door and the wing can only be so big....
Reason: dunno......
Batteries:See above...
The Tamiya TCS is a prime example of a race that has a defined set of rules but when the cars go through TECH a lot of "stuff" is let go. Last year the one I raced at 2 people ( in the same class and in the A main ) where using the EPIC 4 quad "mets" ROAR specs. The one that Qualed 2nd was waved through and the one that qualed 9th was told that he he placed in the top 3 they would have to D-Q him, WHen he asked about the other driver he was told that the other TECH checked his car and passed it. You would have to check with the Race Dir after all the racing was completed...
RTR vs kit.. RTR to try out the hobby and kit is when you decide to get into the hobby.
How many kits/rtr out there can you find that has all the hop-ups included? ( including the radio, motor and ESC )
The conflicting info about RC in the internet, both by racers and vendors...
Batteries:
Example 1: leading battery vendors, 1 says dead-short the other say do not ever dead-short.
Motor: How/when to tune/rebuild your motor, brushes/springs, locked endbell.......
Gearing 32/48/64 pitch.. Confusing info, just try a google search on this.....
Radios/ESC: do I really need to put enything here???
Racing events ( not to be confused with local racing )
Motors: ROAR legal vs mets ROAR
Example: Trinity stock MOSTER vs EPIC stock.
Reason: Cheating/bending/meeting the sprit of the rules etc.
Bodies: must be 4 door and the wing can only be so big....
Reason: dunno......
Batteries:See above...
The Tamiya TCS is a prime example of a race that has a defined set of rules but when the cars go through TECH a lot of "stuff" is let go. Last year the one I raced at 2 people ( in the same class and in the A main ) where using the EPIC 4 quad "mets" ROAR specs. The one that Qualed 2nd was waved through and the one that qualed 9th was told that he he placed in the top 3 they would have to D-Q him, WHen he asked about the other driver he was told that the other TECH checked his car and passed it. You would have to check with the Race Dir after all the racing was completed...
01-13-2005, 09:59 AM
#144
Tech Fanatic
Originally posted by 403forbidden
Of course not, you have a special splace in my heart.
Of course not, you have a special splace in my heart.
01-13-2005, 10:03 AM
#145
Originally posted by JLock
After keeping up with this post for two days and reading through 5 pages, I guess I will drop my $0.02 in the pot.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
After keeping up with this post for two days and reading through 5 pages, I guess I will drop my $0.02 in the pot.
CypressMidwest has a point when he brought up the original point of "dumbing down" the hobby. Too many people buy RTR and brushless motor kits, don't read and understand the instructions thoroughly, and don't take time to learn the hobby like many of us have. These people want instant gratification of high competition and winning and when that doesn't happen, then they feel cheated. Except my Savage kit, I have built every car that I have in my stable and know how to repair them and set them up for racing. This hold true with the many nitro motors in my possession as well. I am also learning the ins and outs of tuning electric motors so that I can race in that class as well. This type of commitment is lacking in many of the people that buy the RTR and brushless setups because, in my opinion, many want to "shortcut" their way to the top. Many of us have spent many hours reading, researching, and studying up on the things that will improve our cars and driving abilities. The many of the new generation of r/c enthusiasts don't want to take the extra time to do their due diligence because it will take time away from them running their equipment. I have worked in a few hobby shops in my day where customer that create the most problems are the RTR buyers. Why? Because many refuse to read the instructions and since they did not build the car themselves, they don't know how to fix it when they break. And, when you try to show them how to make the easy repairs, they have either chose to tune you out or want to talk about making their car faster (via different gears, more high powered motors, etc). Call me an "old schooler" when it come to this but outside of the monster trucks, all other kits should be "build from a box of parts, screws, nuts, and bolts". My thought is if you want to be in the hobby on a competitive level, dedicate you time to learn it the same way many of higher level racers have. There are no easy ways and/or shortcuts to the top or understanding the hobby.
I agree with you but my problem is I just don't have the time anymore and it shows on the track
I think the same can be said for a lot of other guys also. I'm not complaining or expect the hobby/sport to change to meet my needs, its just the way it is.
01-13-2005, 10:15 AM
#146
All of us started out as a newbie to some level. I think that for many of the racers that now race at a high level...that all of them have had a lot of help along the way either direct (person telling/showing how) or indirect (reading/surfing the net). No one shows up to the track with all the skill and info needed to start racing at a high level from the start. The hobby needs a hook. If RTR and the like gets people interested then the hobby grows. If we only have offerings at the race kit level few people will not be able to overcome that initial frustration. Having building blocks to a full out racer is a logical progression. I love the mentoring idea that was mentioned above. Positive treating of our new racers is the only way they will come back. I bet each one of us can name a few racers that took us under their wing and helped us with some stuff that was tuff. If you do not like RTR then do not get one. But maybe support the ones that do so that they will grow to enjoy the level of racing that many of you race at.
Jeff
Jeff
01-13-2005, 10:15 AM
#147
Tech Master
iTrader: (72)
SPORT VS. HOBBY
Does anyone know when the first real car race took place? As soon as the second car was made. MY point is when you get two or more vehicles on a track competing against each other it is racing; a sport. One backyard basher with a Tmaxx in front of his house is a hobby. Us racers have turned our hobby into a sport. That being said, we should be allowed to push the envelope to the maximum, like they do in every other sport.
My fear is that if 4 cell really takes off and does well, the same thing that happened to 1/12 scale will happen to touring cars. I've been racing touring cars for 8 years. In those early days the chassis didn't work like they do today, and the tires were just terrible. If the cars work so much better today and are easier to drive, why would we want to slow them down?
I do not believe 4 cell will grow our sport. I think a lot of newbies join because the first time the go to the track and see a mod race they think "oh my God, they're so fast, I wanna do that". Staring out in spec or stock is slow enough, no need to make it slower. Just my 2 cents.
My fear is that if 4 cell really takes off and does well, the same thing that happened to 1/12 scale will happen to touring cars. I've been racing touring cars for 8 years. In those early days the chassis didn't work like they do today, and the tires were just terrible. If the cars work so much better today and are easier to drive, why would we want to slow them down?
I do not believe 4 cell will grow our sport. I think a lot of newbies join because the first time the go to the track and see a mod race they think "oh my God, they're so fast, I wanna do that". Staring out in spec or stock is slow enough, no need to make it slower. Just my 2 cents.
01-13-2005, 10:19 AM
#148
Originally posted by Windsorguy99
...abandoning rules that are based on old technology to allow continuous development is something else that should be considered (3 stack armatures as an example)...
...abandoning rules that are based on old technology to allow continuous development is something else that should be considered (3 stack armatures as an example)...
Did you know that you could get more than twice the brush/commutator life out of a 5-bar comm DC motor versus the existing 3-bar comm? But we've been using this same technology for years due to antiquated rules, so motor companies are forced to stick with it.
Yes, a 5-bar comm motor would be more expensive than the existing motors, but not nearly as expensive as brushless, and with a significant improvement in life.
01-13-2005, 10:27 AM
#149
Peter,
I do understand the "part-time" racer. I am leading a local race team that I helped form and three of my members are part-timers. However, they have excelled locally and one racer could be a national-level driver if he had the time. But, everyone put in their time and went in with a commitment to do this and try to do it the right way. We all have built our kits, practiced countless of hours, races more races than you can shake a stick at, etc, etc. Locally, we have classes for the new racer in which many have the RTR kits. But only a few of them have taken the time to try to learn some of the many ins and outs of the racing portion of the hobby. The RTR and brushless craze has inputted a bit of the "laziness factor" into the equation. I think that is what many of us are trying to get at, point out, and wonder if that factor will eventually hurt the hobby in the long run.
I do understand the "part-time" racer. I am leading a local race team that I helped form and three of my members are part-timers. However, they have excelled locally and one racer could be a national-level driver if he had the time. But, everyone put in their time and went in with a commitment to do this and try to do it the right way. We all have built our kits, practiced countless of hours, races more races than you can shake a stick at, etc, etc. Locally, we have classes for the new racer in which many have the RTR kits. But only a few of them have taken the time to try to learn some of the many ins and outs of the racing portion of the hobby. The RTR and brushless craze has inputted a bit of the "laziness factor" into the equation. I think that is what many of us are trying to get at, point out, and wonder if that factor will eventually hurt the hobby in the long run.
01-13-2005, 10:31 AM
#150
Wow, this little thread certainly grew overnight. JLock pretty much summed up my thoughts far more eloquently than I had initially expressed them. Many of you guys know me, many don't. The ones that do know me know that I'm fully in favor of the growth of the sport, and will go out of my way to help the new guy at the track. I work in a hobby store and make every attempt to promote the sport every chance I get. I have no problem helping another racer "step-up" and get competitive. The problem is I want them to "STEP-UP", I don't want to "step-down", to make them more competitive.
If this hobby ceases to be challenging, I just won't do it anymore. I guess I'd just announce.........
If this hobby ceases to be challenging, I just won't do it anymore. I guess I'd just announce.........