Electric 1/8 Rules Debate
02-23-2009, 01:59 PM
#211
As for the saftey issue, being I have taken a truggy to the face at a race event, I feel pretty good in my opinion that its the driver that is going to make a difference here. A 30 mph 1/8 scale projectile is dangerous, just as a 40mph is, 50mph is, etc. with varying degrees, but still, dangerous. Who here wants to take a 1/8 scale to the face at 30mph, 20mph?
If you truly want to affect the speeds of the vehicles, without trying to limit all sorts of thing on the vehicle, change track configurations. Alot easier to limit speed by having an extremely technical track than a race director trying to check your gearing, ESC configurations, motor type (some of which I think are not obivious without the label), cell count (same here, pull the label, some may not say), etc. in a race day.
If you truly want to affect the speeds of the vehicles, without trying to limit all sorts of thing on the vehicle, change track configurations. Alot easier to limit speed by having an extremely technical track than a race director trying to check your gearing, ESC configurations, motor type (some of which I think are not obivious without the label), cell count (same here, pull the label, some may not say), etc. in a race day.
02-23-2009, 02:30 PM
#212
Note, no matter how fast your car can go, the majority parts of the track you will be limited on your maximum speed. the only part where you can excel in speed is on a straight. and most track only has one and during the straight, there is not much turn martialing needed. therefore, i think this topic is beating a dead horse. parts where turn martialing is needed the most is in bumpy rough areas where no matter how fast your car is, your speed will be limited.
02-23-2009, 03:42 PM
#213
As for the saftey issue, being I have taken a truggy to the face at a race event, I feel pretty good in my opinion that its the driver that is going to make a difference here. A 30 mph 1/8 scale projectile is dangerous, just as a 40mph is, 50mph is, etc. with varying degrees, but still, dangerous. Who here wants to take a 1/8 scale to the face at 30mph, 20mph?
If you truly want to affect the speeds of the vehicles, without trying to limit all sorts of thing on the vehicle, change track configurations. Alot easier to limit speed by having an extremely technical track than a race director trying to check your gearing, ESC configurations, motor type (some of which I think are not obivious without the label), cell count (same here, pull the label, some may not say), etc. in a race day.
If you truly want to affect the speeds of the vehicles, without trying to limit all sorts of thing on the vehicle, change track configurations. Alot easier to limit speed by having an extremely technical track than a race director trying to check your gearing, ESC configurations, motor type (some of which I think are not obivious without the label), cell count (same here, pull the label, some may not say), etc. in a race day.
... "in theory" 
:
02-23-2009, 04:10 PM
#214
so, after a long day of racing a rut forms at the end of the straight from people hammering on the brakes. When those mains come along the buggies throw their nose into the rut & catapult themselves in random directions, yes this is a real scenario. Everyone here seems to agree that these electrics have no reason to go faster then an 1/8th scale so what would be the problem with running a neu 3.5d on a 4s lipo?
02-23-2009, 04:38 PM
#215
You would have to run a 24/25T pinion to equal nitro speed with that combo. Far from a good running system there. These things can be geared up, but running gearing that tall on a motor only turning 22,000 rpm will be far from a system that runs well. I personally am a fan of setups that run on the low side as far as motor RPM goes, but taking it to far isnt going to work any better than a setup that runs at to high of an rpm.
A setup that turns similar rpms to a nitro motor and similar gearing seems to be the most effective setup for keeping all the parts healthy.
Try getting one to run well and reliably on the track before you get to wrapped up in figuring out how to put a lid on them. I think you will find the lid is already there. Setting one up to run faster speeds than your high end nitro doesnt result in a setup that stays healty and runs for very long in my experience.
EDIT: Honestly though, I think that this is a great argument for the longer mains. It forces people to run lower power setup in order to make the run time. A max battery weight combined with a race time 15 minutes will certainly limit the amount of power that you can use and still make the run time.
A setup that turns similar rpms to a nitro motor and similar gearing seems to be the most effective setup for keeping all the parts healthy.
Try getting one to run well and reliably on the track before you get to wrapped up in figuring out how to put a lid on them. I think you will find the lid is already there. Setting one up to run faster speeds than your high end nitro doesnt result in a setup that stays healty and runs for very long in my experience.
EDIT: Honestly though, I think that this is a great argument for the longer mains. It forces people to run lower power setup in order to make the run time. A max battery weight combined with a race time 15 minutes will certainly limit the amount of power that you can use and still make the run time.
02-24-2009, 08:31 PM
#216
A silly marshall got hit a few weeks ago in the shin by a nitro truggy at the end of our straight. He was a little too enthusiastic and just jumped out without looking. He was whining and limping after that trying to point the finger at the driver whom he said just plowed right into him but few racers had much simpathy cause what he did was just plain dumb and the driver should not be strung up for not being able to stop successfully if someone darts out into the track like that. I don't know of many motorsports that can idiot proof their tracks. Turn marshals standing head-on with high speed straights is another thing. Why do that? Stand off to a point where you're less likely to get hit and always monitor your section of track, don't try to follow the race leaders or have a snooze behind your sunglasses. It's a simple job, just look out for your section of track and be aware.
02-24-2009, 08:47 PM
#217
so, after a long day of racing a rut forms at the end of the straight from people hammering on the brakes. When those mains come along the buggies throw their nose into the rut & catapult themselves in random directions, yes this is a real scenario. Everyone here seems to agree that these electrics have no reason to go faster then an 1/8th scale so what would be the problem with running a neu 3.5d on a 4s lipo?
I think your losing the argument. Here and in the nitro thread. People have common sense and mostly know when to apply it. Even the nitro guys disagree with your fear mongering.
Time to throw in the towel on this one.
02-24-2009, 09:46 PM
#218
The problem with trying to use battery weight and race length as some sort of power/speed limiter....
1. There will never be one single length of race.... and that's the only way this would have the right effect. Even in 1/10 racing where 5 minutes has been the standard for years... you see some local tracks running 6 or 7 minutes sometimes. (ROAR just changed to 6 minutes I think... but you get the point)
2. Actual runtime efficiency varies widely.... so it's impossible to create a little window of XXX batttery mah = XXX minutes of runtime. What works well on most tracks might not be right at all on others.
So, for example... by the theory of the rule, we would be running mild 2.5D motors on the big narly outdoor tracks.... but could run a 1.5D on a typical indoor clay track. And getting the same runtime on the same battery.
Again... I don't mind the idea of keeping the idiots off the track with their 60mph setups. But I don't see any good way to legislate it. If there is a real concern about a dangerous, overpowered, out of control car at a track.... or several of them.... the race director/track operator can step in and do something about it.
How about this for a rule? Simply set a speed limit...put a cap on the max speed of the car before it can hit the track. Keep a radar gun handy and make them do a speed run if the car looks "too" fast, and make them gear down until it's "legal".
1. There will never be one single length of race.... and that's the only way this would have the right effect. Even in 1/10 racing where 5 minutes has been the standard for years... you see some local tracks running 6 or 7 minutes sometimes. (ROAR just changed to 6 minutes I think... but you get the point)
2. Actual runtime efficiency varies widely.... so it's impossible to create a little window of XXX batttery mah = XXX minutes of runtime. What works well on most tracks might not be right at all on others.
So, for example... by the theory of the rule, we would be running mild 2.5D motors on the big narly outdoor tracks.... but could run a 1.5D on a typical indoor clay track. And getting the same runtime on the same battery.
Again... I don't mind the idea of keeping the idiots off the track with their 60mph setups. But I don't see any good way to legislate it. If there is a real concern about a dangerous, overpowered, out of control car at a track.... or several of them.... the race director/track operator can step in and do something about it.
How about this for a rule? Simply set a speed limit...put a cap on the max speed of the car before it can hit the track. Keep a radar gun handy and make them do a speed run if the car looks "too" fast, and make them gear down until it's "legal".
02-25-2009, 05:40 AM
#219
Calling people stupid is always a great way to get your point across. 
I've been racing electric 1/8 for about 6 months now, on some of the largest tracks that exist (The Farm 2 and Badlands for examples). No one has ever set a buggy down on the track that will do 70mph or even 50 for that matter. It's just not going to work on a dirt track regardless of the size. I ran a hotter setup than most because I was running 5s lipos on a 2100kv motor when most were running 4s. That put my top speed about 5mph faster than most, and I still doubt I ever exceeded 40mph for more than a second, about 2/3rds the way down the longest straights.
Marshalling 1/8 scales can be dangerous, period. Nitros are still 7+ lb vehicles with metal chassis that will cause damage at half their top speed if you get caught wrong. It's a part of the hobby, you race - you marshall.
I've been racing electric 1/8 for about 6 months now, on some of the largest tracks that exist (The Farm 2 and Badlands for examples). No one has ever set a buggy down on the track that will do 70mph or even 50 for that matter. It's just not going to work on a dirt track regardless of the size. I ran a hotter setup than most because I was running 5s lipos on a 2100kv motor when most were running 4s. That put my top speed about 5mph faster than most, and I still doubt I ever exceeded 40mph for more than a second, about 2/3rds the way down the longest straights.
Marshalling 1/8 scales can be dangerous, period. Nitros are still 7+ lb vehicles with metal chassis that will cause damage at half their top speed if you get caught wrong. It's a part of the hobby, you race - you marshall.
You guys are stupid & iresponsible if you do not want to accept the fact that these buggies are already dangerous to marshall for & even more dangerous if they go faster. If you have to reach for your punch control then going w/ a 2.5 on a 4s lipo should not be an issue for you. Just because you have no throtle control skills doesn't mean an experienced 2wd buggy driver can not lay down 5kw of power on a good day. Just because they are an experienced driver doesn't mean that they will hit their line & not hit a section of the track wrong sending their buggy flying at a marshall. If you think dodging an 1/8th scale at 40mph is tough then try dodging one at 70 mph. I'm going to assume that the people who are trying to make the safety isn't an issue argument also send their little kids out to turn marshall the truggies too. If you don't fix the issue at the start then it become much tougher to fix the issue later on down the road. If you are curious as to how much more energy a buggy carries going 60mph instead of 45 mph then think about this. A buggies energy is proportional to the square of it's velocity. This means that a buggy going 70mph will hit with more then double the force of one going 50 mph.
So, here is why there should be a limit.
safer
longer run times
longer car life
less wear on track
nitros can compete so small tracks can run the classes togather.
I figured this thread could get started up since people will do anything to win since they already do it anyways. Exspecialy when a paycheck could be riding on the outcome of their performance.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-of...ml#post5469536
So, here is why there should be a limit.
safer
longer run times
longer car life
less wear on track
nitros can compete so small tracks can run the classes togather.
I figured this thread could get started up since people will do anything to win since they already do it anyways. Exspecialy when a paycheck could be riding on the outcome of their performance.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-of...ml#post5469536
02-25-2009, 06:49 AM
#220
The biggest problem with the 1/8 electric for marshalls is that they don't pay attention, particularly when an electric is racing among nitros. Marshall's get used to the noise of the nitro and use that as an indicator if a car is coming. On several occasions I have nailed a marshall who stepped out on to a straight away without looking first because he couldn't hear me coming. When I marshall, I always look both ways like crossing a street first even with the nitros, but sometimes I think people just forget they are standing on a RACETRACK and need to use caution and be paying attention AT ALL TIMES.
02-25-2009, 07:16 AM
#221
I didnt read the whole thread but I am interested in putting one of these together for the outdoor season. The main thing that appeals to me about it is the speed. The main thing I hated about electric racing was all the rules and people who were cheating or accusing everyone of cheating all the time. That being said I think you have to draw the line somewhere or your right these 1/8th electric buggies could cause some serious damage to someone. Even if the marshall jumps out in front of you it still makes you feel horrible to hit someone.
I think the easy answer is limit it to 4s. It seems most all the kits are made to properly fit 2x2s packs or one 4s. Let them get whatever motor speedo combo they want but limit the battery size. It makes for a simple technical inspection and I am pretty certain you can still go pretty rediculous fast with a 4S pack.
I think the easy answer is limit it to 4s. It seems most all the kits are made to properly fit 2x2s packs or one 4s. Let them get whatever motor speedo combo they want but limit the battery size. It makes for a simple technical inspection and I am pretty certain you can still go pretty rediculous fast with a 4S pack.
02-25-2009, 08:28 AM
#222
I didnt read the whole thread but I am interested in putting one of these together for the outdoor season. The main thing that appeals to me about it is the speed. The main thing I hated about electric racing was all the rules and people who were cheating or accusing everyone of cheating all the time. That being said I think you have to draw the line somewhere or your right these 1/8th electric buggies could cause some serious damage to someone. Even if the marshall jumps out in front of you it still makes you feel horrible to hit someone.
I think the easy answer is limit it to 4s. It seems most all the kits are made to properly fit 2x2s packs or one 4s. Let them get whatever motor speedo combo they want but limit the battery size. It makes for a simple technical inspection and I am pretty certain you can still go pretty rediculous fast with a 4S pack.
I think the easy answer is limit it to 4s. It seems most all the kits are made to properly fit 2x2s packs or one 4s. Let them get whatever motor speedo combo they want but limit the battery size. It makes for a simple technical inspection and I am pretty certain you can still go pretty rediculous fast with a 4S pack.
Wait until you have one then come back and post what the rules should be. People running the class should make the rules otherwise we end up with rules like max weights that no one can make.
It should always be at the disgression of the RD. I have seen nitros thrown off the track for driving like an arse before so it really makes no difference.
02-25-2009, 08:43 AM
#224
.. or at least read the whole thread first! It's already been said multiple times that cell count alone isn't a restriction. There is little difference between someone running a 2650kv motor on 4s and someone running a 2100kv on 5s, or someone running a 1600kv on 6s for that matter. They all generate nearly the same RPMs and thus nearly the same speed.
02-25-2009, 09:46 AM
#225
there are two types of people who make their cars waaaay faster than they should be for racing.
one is the basher that is first trying their hand at racing and soon realizes that in order to actually get around the track they need to slow down their cars a lot.
the other one is the problem, you know the guys that have been racing for a while and run 1/10 mod truck or buggy or even more scary still 4w buggy and they cant put togther back to back laps without wrecking 5 times. then they come off the drivers stand and say they need more motor
. those guys will always have way more power than their skills will ever be able to control.
instead of limiting the power output all a race director needs to do is say you must be able to maintain a reasonable ammount of control or you cannot race or even practice. i have no problem with new guys learning and wrecking as long as they keep the speed down and arent punching it all the time.
one is the basher that is first trying their hand at racing and soon realizes that in order to actually get around the track they need to slow down their cars a lot.
the other one is the problem, you know the guys that have been racing for a while and run 1/10 mod truck or buggy or even more scary still 4w buggy and they cant put togther back to back laps without wrecking 5 times. then they come off the drivers stand and say they need more motor
. those guys will always have way more power than their skills will ever be able to control.instead of limiting the power output all a race director needs to do is say you must be able to maintain a reasonable ammount of control or you cannot race or even practice. i have no problem with new guys learning and wrecking as long as they keep the speed down and arent punching it all the time.