65LikesTC3 Forum
07-19-2004, 11:54 AM
#8956
i built them up ok and fitted them but they seem to be loose on the top mount, do you guys use yok spacer's at the top!!
07-19-2004, 03:07 PM
#8957
Tech Master
Originally posted by DaveW
Olec: Its kinda hard to say, not knowing the rest of your setup, and like you said, it may be how you are driving it into the corners. Are you running the battery forward? I will suggest a setup for medium/high bite asphalt that works well with TakeOff (CS27 and up) tires. Try it, and see if your car is planted with better tire wear.
Front shocks: #3 piston 40wt oil gold spring
Front suspension: F-0 block, Losi 2 Deg caster block/ Losi steering knuckle
Front shock position: Middle hole on tower, inner hole on arm
Camber rod position: Inside lower on tower
Droop: 3 (measured on the end of arm, not the screw boss)
Rear shocks: #2 piston 40wt oil silver spring
Rear suspension: F block, R 3-2 block, Losi XXX-S 0 degree hubs
Rear shock position: Middle hole on tower, outer hole on arm
Camber rod position: Inside up on tower, outside on hub
Droop: 2
Misc: Ride height 5mm, battery forward, standard TC3 swaybar both front and rear adjusted all the way out. Also, using the longer rear camber location will require longer ballcups, or a longer turnbuckle. As long as they clear the rim.
If the car has too much initial steering input for you (sensitive-twitchy, but the rear isnt loose), its the battery location. Not everyone likes it up front. You can move your camber rod on the tower from inside down to outside up, a rarely used location, but it will work, or you can try moving the battery back. The car will be faster with the battery forward, it just takes some getting used too, or some negative steering expo on your transmitter. When you add the Losi steering blocks, it will change your ackerman from the stock position. Leave it be for now, but be sure your bumpsteer is right. Your steering turnbuckles from rack to steering block should be level with the suspension arm at rideheight, this is a good neutral starting point. Losi also makes Titanium ballstuds that are longer for your steering knuckles, to be able to add a locknut and the right amount of washers for strength and correct bumpsteer. Three ASC washers, (used for the B4 buggy) ballstud roll center adjustment washers, will bring you really close. (.090 total) They are aluminum, and support the ballstud shoulder, to help prevent bending your ballstuds during wall impacts. Yes, Titanium WILL bend. LOL I run IRS diffs front and rear, the front one "slightly" tighter than the rear. This is also personal preference though. I also run the Yok caps on my shocks. I DO run the ASC foam on the bobbin, but no foam insert in the bladder cap. Again, you must experiment to see what works for you. Incidentally, if you are having a problem with your swaybars popping out of the mounting locations, use a few of your old thrust washers from your diffs (small ones) under the screws. They seem to fit just right. I could type a book on "if it does this to try this", but let me know whatcha think.
- DaveW
Olec: Its kinda hard to say, not knowing the rest of your setup, and like you said, it may be how you are driving it into the corners. Are you running the battery forward? I will suggest a setup for medium/high bite asphalt that works well with TakeOff (CS27 and up) tires. Try it, and see if your car is planted with better tire wear.
Front shocks: #3 piston 40wt oil gold spring
Front suspension: F-0 block, Losi 2 Deg caster block/ Losi steering knuckle
Front shock position: Middle hole on tower, inner hole on arm
Camber rod position: Inside lower on tower
Droop: 3 (measured on the end of arm, not the screw boss)
Rear shocks: #2 piston 40wt oil silver spring
Rear suspension: F block, R 3-2 block, Losi XXX-S 0 degree hubs
Rear shock position: Middle hole on tower, outer hole on arm
Camber rod position: Inside up on tower, outside on hub
Droop: 2
Misc: Ride height 5mm, battery forward, standard TC3 swaybar both front and rear adjusted all the way out. Also, using the longer rear camber location will require longer ballcups, or a longer turnbuckle. As long as they clear the rim.
If the car has too much initial steering input for you (sensitive-twitchy, but the rear isnt loose), its the battery location. Not everyone likes it up front. You can move your camber rod on the tower from inside down to outside up, a rarely used location, but it will work, or you can try moving the battery back. The car will be faster with the battery forward, it just takes some getting used too, or some negative steering expo on your transmitter. When you add the Losi steering blocks, it will change your ackerman from the stock position. Leave it be for now, but be sure your bumpsteer is right. Your steering turnbuckles from rack to steering block should be level with the suspension arm at rideheight, this is a good neutral starting point. Losi also makes Titanium ballstuds that are longer for your steering knuckles, to be able to add a locknut and the right amount of washers for strength and correct bumpsteer. Three ASC washers, (used for the B4 buggy) ballstud roll center adjustment washers, will bring you really close. (.090 total) They are aluminum, and support the ballstud shoulder, to help prevent bending your ballstuds during wall impacts. Yes, Titanium WILL bend. LOL I run IRS diffs front and rear, the front one "slightly" tighter than the rear. This is also personal preference though. I also run the Yok caps on my shocks. I DO run the ASC foam on the bobbin, but no foam insert in the bladder cap. Again, you must experiment to see what works for you. Incidentally, if you are having a problem with your swaybars popping out of the mounting locations, use a few of your old thrust washers from your diffs (small ones) under the screws. They seem to fit just right. I could type a book on "if it does this to try this", but let me know whatcha think.
- DaveW
Great set-up you got there...
07-19-2004, 05:00 PM
#8958
Tech Regular
Anyone with experience with foam on asphalt?
07-20-2004, 12:36 AM
#8959
@DaveW, thanks again!
That looks like an interesting setup. I'll have to sit down and "analyze" it before I try it.
There are two reasons why I haven't played around so much with swaybars.
One, it does as you say tend to "cover up" problems with the setup.
Two, our track has become increasingly bumpy (however, the bumps does not seem to be a problem with the setup I'm using now. But then again, how bumpy is bumpy...?)
Here is the setup I'm using now.
FRONT
Blue springs
#2 piston
40w oil
rear tower on front
top shock mount outside hole
VerII arms lower mount outside hole
camber link inside upper
2 degree castor
F-o block
stock steering blocks
front sway bar (standard)
5.5mm ride hight
5 mm droop
.5 degree toe out
0.5 degree camber
REAR
blue springs
#2 pistons
40woil
top shock mount middle hole
VerII arms out side mount hole
camber link upper inner
rear hubs middle position (wheelbase)
std. hubs
no sway bar
R-3-0 block
3 mm droop
6 mm ride hight
1.0 neg degree camber
TIRES
sorex 36 with Sorex C medium insert on schumacher disc wheels (spec wheels for this years Euros)
I have a Warpspeed D1 chassis which centers the battery. Front one way, IRS diff rear, titanium ballstuds, Lunsford tie rods, RPM heavy duty ballcups. Thats the only retrofitted parts that I would think could affect the handling.
I have the Yokomo shock caps with bladders but I've switched back to the std ones as I could not make the shocks stop "bursting". The shock oil came out on the shaft side so I thought it could be the Tiatanium nitride shafts, but after I changed back to the old caps I haven't had that problem any more.
One more thing, I haven't tried grinding down the diff case supports yet. Others who have tried it here says it works good as it gives more "chassis traction". I guess its like putting a more flexible top deck on the X-ray.
I did see this modification on most of the TC3's at the Euros though, so it can't be a very bad idea....
That looks like an interesting setup. I'll have to sit down and "analyze" it before I try it.
There are two reasons why I haven't played around so much with swaybars.
One, it does as you say tend to "cover up" problems with the setup.
Two, our track has become increasingly bumpy (however, the bumps does not seem to be a problem with the setup I'm using now. But then again, how bumpy is bumpy...?)
Here is the setup I'm using now.
FRONT
Blue springs
#2 piston
40w oil
rear tower on front
top shock mount outside hole
VerII arms lower mount outside hole
camber link inside upper
2 degree castor
F-o block
stock steering blocks
front sway bar (standard)
5.5mm ride hight
5 mm droop
.5 degree toe out
0.5 degree camber
REAR
blue springs
#2 pistons
40woil
top shock mount middle hole
VerII arms out side mount hole
camber link upper inner
rear hubs middle position (wheelbase)
std. hubs
no sway bar
R-3-0 block
3 mm droop
6 mm ride hight
1.0 neg degree camber
TIRES
sorex 36 with Sorex C medium insert on schumacher disc wheels (spec wheels for this years Euros)
I have a Warpspeed D1 chassis which centers the battery. Front one way, IRS diff rear, titanium ballstuds, Lunsford tie rods, RPM heavy duty ballcups. Thats the only retrofitted parts that I would think could affect the handling.
I have the Yokomo shock caps with bladders but I've switched back to the std ones as I could not make the shocks stop "bursting". The shock oil came out on the shaft side so I thought it could be the Tiatanium nitride shafts, but after I changed back to the old caps I haven't had that problem any more.
One more thing, I haven't tried grinding down the diff case supports yet. Others who have tried it here says it works good as it gives more "chassis traction". I guess its like putting a more flexible top deck on the X-ray.
I did see this modification on most of the TC3's at the Euros though, so it can't be a very bad idea....
07-20-2004, 01:09 AM
#8960
Hi friends. Greetings from Malta.
OLEC.Your set up is similar to the one we use in my son's championship winning TC3, and the set up I use when race preparing most customer cars.
Our track too is grippy but bumpy tarmac - asphalt.
The main differences are:
We use AE green springs which are slightly softer all round. 2 x 0 rear suspension mounts, so no kick up or antisquat front or rear, and we do use the Yoke bladder caps fitted on stock AE shocks.
We use the 4 degree front castor blocks and we run the car in short wheelbase form with the cells upfront.
You say you use Sorex 36. With your kind of climate I reckon you can go way softer. Here in Malta, even in our heat we run TakeOff 22s with Schumacher black inserts, and even grey inserts sometimes. With the softer grey inserts the car rides the bumps and ripples on the track much better, but of course tyre wear increases accordingly.
Allother settings are pretty much the same as yours and Daves.
Here's a pic of my son's TC3.
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
OLEC.Your set up is similar to the one we use in my son's championship winning TC3, and the set up I use when race preparing most customer cars.
Our track too is grippy but bumpy tarmac - asphalt.
The main differences are:
We use AE green springs which are slightly softer all round. 2 x 0 rear suspension mounts, so no kick up or antisquat front or rear, and we do use the Yoke bladder caps fitted on stock AE shocks.
We use the 4 degree front castor blocks and we run the car in short wheelbase form with the cells upfront.
You say you use Sorex 36. With your kind of climate I reckon you can go way softer. Here in Malta, even in our heat we run TakeOff 22s with Schumacher black inserts, and even grey inserts sometimes. With the softer grey inserts the car rides the bumps and ripples on the track much better, but of course tyre wear increases accordingly.
Allother settings are pretty much the same as yours and Daves.
Here's a pic of my son's TC3.
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
07-20-2004, 01:13 AM
#8961
Sorry.
That pic was his spare car, with steering by levers rather than a rack. He prefers the one with the normal rack.
This is the car he raced throughout the championship.
Here's the pic.
That pic was his spare car, with steering by levers rather than a rack. He prefers the one with the normal rack.
This is the car he raced throughout the championship.
Here's the pic.
07-20-2004, 06:17 AM
#8962
Hey Joe. Thanks for your input!
Good to hear that I’m on the track to a winning setup!
I was thinking of trying the green springs but something in the back of my mind has been saying: “no, that is way too soft. The car will feel sluggish. A stiff car is a fast car etc. etc....”.
The main reason I use the Sorex 36 now is because they are leftovers from the Euros. But Sorex 36 is the most common tire we use during summer anyway. I have tested softer tires (32 & 28) on hot days but they start squeaking after a few turns and then become undriveable.
I havent tested much with Take offs though, maybe they are more resistant to overheating.
Good to hear that I’m on the track to a winning setup!
I was thinking of trying the green springs but something in the back of my mind has been saying: “no, that is way too soft. The car will feel sluggish. A stiff car is a fast car etc. etc....”.
The main reason I use the Sorex 36 now is because they are leftovers from the Euros. But Sorex 36 is the most common tire we use during summer anyway. I have tested softer tires (32 & 28) on hot days but they start squeaking after a few turns and then become undriveable.
I havent tested much with Take offs though, maybe they are more resistant to overheating.
07-20-2004, 07:04 AM
#8963
OLE C
We use the green springs with the shocks fitted on the outermost holes, top and bottom, with the rear tower in front and with the spool.
Re tyres, we used to run Sorex 28s but as you say they squeal alot and wear alot. The thing is that the Take Off 22, even with the sort of soft inserts we are using, outperforms the Sorex 28 on all counts.
Like you say, the Sorex 28 is good for 1 run, perhaps 2, then it goes off rapidly whereas the Take off remains consistant much longer.
Of course the different track characteristics will have alot to do with tyre choice, for example when we raced in England last year, even though the temperatures were lower than we normally have here in Malta, the car only felt good with the Echo moulded inserts, which just don't work at all out here.
We use the green springs with the shocks fitted on the outermost holes, top and bottom, with the rear tower in front and with the spool.
Re tyres, we used to run Sorex 28s but as you say they squeal alot and wear alot. The thing is that the Take Off 22, even with the sort of soft inserts we are using, outperforms the Sorex 28 on all counts.
Like you say, the Sorex 28 is good for 1 run, perhaps 2, then it goes off rapidly whereas the Take off remains consistant much longer.
Of course the different track characteristics will have alot to do with tyre choice, for example when we raced in England last year, even though the temperatures were lower than we normally have here in Malta, the car only felt good with the Echo moulded inserts, which just don't work at all out here.
07-20-2004, 11:27 AM
#8964
Olec: How do you like the front one-way? It takes a patient and consistent driver to be fast with one. Im agressive in traffic, i plot a line in my peripheral vision and throttle it. I cant run a one-way. Qualifying is a different story though, i try to be as smooth and consistent as possible, 1 to 2 inches off of the dots with nice radiused turns, usually late apexing corners to make the most of short straights (hence 2 degrees of caster total in my car). Looking at your setup, i see two major things than can make your car loose, and worse with a one-way in the mix. The reason i run #3 pistons in the front shocks, is to slow bound and rebound rates, or relative shock shaft speed. This can reduce "traction" which is more like stability on a rougher track. Choosing piston size is directly related to the surface texture (depending in insert choice), second, control of weight distribution. If the track isnt sharply rutted, the #3 piston can be used with the Take-Off tires, and the softer insert, as Joe already mentioned. The softer the insert, the wear is more accelerated. But more importantly, it becomes more of a factor in suspension tuning. The softer insert will take care of some of the more agressive areas of the track surface, allowing you to run what may seem to be something unorthodox in your setup. This leaves the shocks to control weight distribution of the chassis, the #3 piston retarding front suspension lift, increasing off corner on power steering, and retarding front suspension drop coming into corners, or HARD on the brake, making the car feel really stable when being pushed to its limits. Your #2 piston in the front, combined with no difference in spring rate front to rear (the front should be a little stiffer than the rear as a general rule with a one-way), makes the car transfer really fast to throttle/off throttle/brake input. This can be bad for a car with a one-way. As soon as you let off the throttle, even with no brake, weight is transferred to the front tires, which have no natural braking ability because of the one-way, and your car is rear wheel drive, if you add brake, even more weight is transferred to the front and complicates the issue. Then if you have to second guess your line because of traffic, it gets worse with the repeated input to the chassis (throttle on/off/on), it basically doesnt know what you want it to do with the given time to respond. The car can feel nervous and definitely rip any inspiration from you. I see you went to the rear shock tower up front, which can complicate it even more. (for some drivers) In that position the shock is stood up more, which effectively reduces "traction" (laterally) but more importantly, increases relative shock shaft speed... which is where this whole discussion begins. On top of this all, you have one of the markets stiffest chassis on your car, and as you already stated, a stiff chassis can be a hindrance on not so smooth asphalt. I have tried removal of the tranny case supports before, it basically allows the "wings" to float on the tranny case, like old school "pucks" (friction disks) did on oval cars for the rear pod. (if i understood what you were saying right) It works, but reduces overall strength. The only time i ever broke a main driveshaft was then, admittedly it was a headon hit from a guy that came at me from a crash in his lane, but hey... 
Poo happens. The truth is, the stiffer the chassis, the more tuning you have to do. The suspension has to be that much more exact. Instead of the chassis absorbing some of that torsional input, the shocks have to do all the work, giving you less options to work with overall for setup. Joe is right about the Take-Offs, they are more consistent for a longer period of time, but can be a little loose on the first few laps, until you get a little heat in them. Above all though, driver preference is key, you have to try to see what works for you. Wish ya luck, and let us know your findings! 
- DaveW
Poo happens. The truth is, the stiffer the chassis, the more tuning you have to do. The suspension has to be that much more exact. Instead of the chassis absorbing some of that torsional input, the shocks have to do all the work, giving you less options to work with overall for setup. Joe is right about the Take-Offs, they are more consistent for a longer period of time, but can be a little loose on the first few laps, until you get a little heat in them. Above all though, driver preference is key, you have to try to see what works for you. Wish ya luck, and let us know your findings! - DaveW
07-20-2004, 11:39 AM
#8965
BTW Nevermind that "crowbar" of a swaybar on the front of my car, its handmade from pianowire, and is the biggest wire to fit in the aluminum mounts. (its .78 and BRP makes them, unfortunately, mine was tweaked from the package, one side was longer than the other, and the bend over the dogbone was further out on one side than the other, so i just made my own with calipers, needlenose pliers, and glass to tweak it on.) There was a ton of grip there, that bar made it alot easier to drive the car. I also had a horrible glitch, if you look at Joes car, my electronics are identical to his now, no glitch!! Thanks Joe. 
- DaveW
- DaveW
07-20-2004, 01:46 PM
#8966
daveW,
can i ask what shocks you are running?? they look like yokomo one's?? if the are do you use the yokomo spacer/pivotball on the top shock mount??
J-P
can i ask what shocks you are running?? they look like yokomo one's?? if the are do you use the yokomo spacer/pivotball on the top shock mount??
J-P
07-20-2004, 02:29 PM
#8968
Tech Master
I prefer to just to use Rayspeed bladders.
What motor mounts are you guys using?
What motor mounts are you guys using?
07-20-2004, 05:01 PM
#8969
Tech Adept
Anyone ever have the problem of their front swaybar ball cup that is attached to the arm pops off durring racing?
Atleast 1-2 a day ( 3 Q's and a Main ), my sway bar gets un hooked from the arm on one side.
Is it binding up? Is it that the ball cup is just worn out?
Anyone got an idea?
Atleast 1-2 a day ( 3 Q's and a Main ), my sway bar gets un hooked from the arm on one side.
Is it binding up? Is it that the ball cup is just worn out?
Anyone got an idea?
07-20-2004, 09:26 PM
#8970
New TC3 owner
Hello to all,
I've been reading as much as I can of these 300 pages, and am amazed at the possibilities with this car (especially compared to oval cars).
Dave, I have no experience with rubber tires as everyone at my track runs foam on asphalt. Would your setup change much with a foam tire?
I've been reading as much as I can of these 300 pages, and am amazed at the possibilities with this car (especially compared to oval cars).
Dave, I have no experience with rubber tires as everyone at my track runs foam on asphalt. Would your setup change much with a foam tire?