Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
01-27-2004 | 09:32 AM
#16
Denis and RDlogics is working hard at it and both parties don't
want to release an engine that is not up to thier standards. they
are making sure the qc in manufacturing and making sure that
the engine will hold up to torture more than a regular customer
would put it through.
want to release an engine that is not up to thier standards. they
are making sure the qc in manufacturing and making sure that
the engine will hold up to torture more than a regular customer
would put it through.
01-27-2004 | 10:12 AM
#17
If I have this kind of financial support from any of manufacturer or anybody who will invest some moneyI will have at this point all three sizes and all kind up running.
But I do eveything by my self, so takes 6 weeks to design and build the unit. Which I think is pretty fast.
But I do eveything by my self, so takes 6 weeks to design and build the unit. Which I think is pretty fast.
01-27-2004 | 10:35 AM
#18
Tech Elite
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,278
From: Bavaria, Germany
Originally posted by modellor
I really have to disagree with you on this. JP were always quick but I dont think they were ever the best modded engine available and it was never actually proven as such (other than a couple of the .21 on-road engines). I believe the late Ron Paris prepped a far better modded engine and so did Mario Rossi.
As for STS. They have a huge following already and have produced some real good engines. Granted they may not be as fast on high end as other modded engines but then again you have to look a little further.
The STS is designed for ultimate torque to get best results around shorter twisty tracks whereas the JP is designed to produce high revs for the larger flowing European tracks. So in the right environment both engines will come into their own.
As for selling engines at $200 - $300 that can compare with the JP or other modded engines, that is already beginning. And you can be assured they are stock out of the box.
I really have to disagree with you on this. JP were always quick but I dont think they were ever the best modded engine available and it was never actually proven as such (other than a couple of the .21 on-road engines). I believe the late Ron Paris prepped a far better modded engine and so did Mario Rossi.
As for STS. They have a huge following already and have produced some real good engines. Granted they may not be as fast on high end as other modded engines but then again you have to look a little further.
The STS is designed for ultimate torque to get best results around shorter twisty tracks whereas the JP is designed to produce high revs for the larger flowing European tracks. So in the right environment both engines will come into their own.
As for selling engines at $200 - $300 that can compare with the JP or other modded engines, that is already beginning. And you can be assured they are stock out of the box.
If you compare a STS to a higher revving NR, you'll know exactly why it has no top end.....
My D3 has as much top end than any of my NR based engines, but it still has awesome bottom end.
01-27-2004 | 02:38 PM
#19
Re: Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
Originally posted by gonsped
Back in the ol' days of just a few years ago , Kyosho was the dominant leader in 1/8th off-road buggies and there were no decent competitors.
Fast forward to present time. Now, manufacturers from China, Taiwan are able to produce similar quality kits for much less.
Novarossi has and always been the dominant engine manufacturer since time began. They charge high dollar for their engines - let alone the modified line.
Look folks, engines are engines, the theory of its inner workings and its science has been known for decades. Everyone in the know (and there is many) understands what makes more power within a particular engine design - its not a mystery anymore.
Our national champion, Michael Kerr is hoping Sirio to get their act together and try to beat this towering behemoth and hopefully bring cost down.
Why not then, the asian manufacturers take this into their own hands and produce highly cost effective modified engines that equals or rivals Novarossi's line? (both in terms of performance, build quality and reliability) They are already well known for copying items from software, to handbags, to clothes and god knows what else and boy do they do it well.
Novarossi's current market standing is as any greedy businessman would say "If we can charge more, why not?"
We have private citizens that can modify engines for U$80-90. There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.
Why not take a few sample of everyone's line of modified engines - i.e. Lelasi's, Rody's, Mario's, JP's - use a 3D laser scanner and have a CAD model they can work with.
This is a relatively inexpensive investment which does not require much R&D work and it would be great to get some brand reliability from the East. Since they are known for copying everything from wallets to clothes and god knows what else - surely they can do engines as well
O.S. engines can sell VZ-B/V01Bs for U$185 from HK (retail price) - surely with a cad drawing of a JP Black RX P5 motor for example, they can make new moulds and produce the same replica for the same price (or slightly higher) as their VZ-B/V01b line?
U$500-600 for an engine and U$200 for replacement P/S is outright robbery.
Comments?
Back in the ol' days of just a few years ago , Kyosho was the dominant leader in 1/8th off-road buggies and there were no decent competitors.
Fast forward to present time. Now, manufacturers from China, Taiwan are able to produce similar quality kits for much less.
Novarossi has and always been the dominant engine manufacturer since time began. They charge high dollar for their engines - let alone the modified line.
Look folks, engines are engines, the theory of its inner workings and its science has been known for decades. Everyone in the know (and there is many) understands what makes more power within a particular engine design - its not a mystery anymore.
Our national champion, Michael Kerr is hoping Sirio to get their act together and try to beat this towering behemoth and hopefully bring cost down.
Why not then, the asian manufacturers take this into their own hands and produce highly cost effective modified engines that equals or rivals Novarossi's line? (both in terms of performance, build quality and reliability) They are already well known for copying items from software, to handbags, to clothes and god knows what else and boy do they do it well.
Novarossi's current market standing is as any greedy businessman would say "If we can charge more, why not?"
We have private citizens that can modify engines for U$80-90. There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.
Why not take a few sample of everyone's line of modified engines - i.e. Lelasi's, Rody's, Mario's, JP's - use a 3D laser scanner and have a CAD model they can work with.
This is a relatively inexpensive investment which does not require much R&D work and it would be great to get some brand reliability from the East. Since they are known for copying everything from wallets to clothes and god knows what else - surely they can do engines as well
O.S. engines can sell VZ-B/V01Bs for U$185 from HK (retail price) - surely with a cad drawing of a JP Black RX P5 motor for example, they can make new moulds and produce the same replica for the same price (or slightly higher) as their VZ-B/V01b line?
U$500-600 for an engine and U$200 for replacement P/S is outright robbery.
Comments?
I don't want to say you are not expert in engine's design and manufacturing, but defenetly you have not too much knowlodge in engine design and manufacturing, but I can be wrong.
It is not to just make copy of the mold and let's pump it. It took years to get to the point where we are right now and belive me, if it is that easy, tomorrow it will be hundreds of companies making engines equile to JP, MS, Sirio etc. It is not only cheap labor, also it is years of expirience, years of experiments and developments. You can easy copy cloth or other consumer product, but when it comes to high perfromance devices-it is not working.
I agree with you that $600 for .21 JP or similar is reducilous, but this is free market and demand dictate the price. Also good financial politic and marketing do part of work too.
But to develop piston material and technology how to make it will cost to anybody at list $50-60k and this is almost the heart of engine. Engine isn't that easy device you can easy scan and copy.
Sorry may be I put something realy strong, but just want to try to warn you, if you don't know how the engine work, don't try to waste your money and time-it will be real waste.
Comments?
01-27-2004 | 06:57 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Tech Initiate
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 45
I don't want to open a can of worms or start arguing. Lets get down to basics.
2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:
* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor
Engine modification will only involve those parts - nothing else (forget the heatsink for now).
Have a quick read of the laser scanning machine below and note its accuracy and what institutions make use of it.
There is no need to purchase this equipment - renting it or have someone that owns the equipment to do the scanning job for you is very cost effective.
I will repeat again - O.S. engines has the capability to produce high quality, excellent tolerance engines and the results speak for themselves.
If a V01B can retail for U$185 in HK and this engine has gone through distributors, etc. - how much effort does it take to clone a JP replica?
With their own milling/cutting machine and a CAD drawing with a JP engine in front of their face - you are saying they CAN'T do it?
I DON'T SUGGEST O.S. to perform cloning/copying - I am referring to other engine manufacturer's to do so - i.e. Force engines.
If a company in Japan can succeed, there is no reason a company in China/Taiwan shouldn't.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND: I am not asking for the asian engine manufacturers to go and develop (R&D) their own engine. Do a copy or a similar copy to JP or the like - stellar performance at a very reasonable price ($200-300).
I don't ask them to break copyright laws either - but since they are already notorious to copy other people's products - surely this is just another drop in the bucket for them.
With regards to JP's demand/price figure - tell me if JP can sell $300 Black lines, their demand will not soar.
The reason there is little demand is due to their current pricing strategy.
2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:
* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor
Engine modification will only involve those parts - nothing else (forget the heatsink for now).
Have a quick read of the laser scanning machine below and note its accuracy and what institutions make use of it.
There is no need to purchase this equipment - renting it or have someone that owns the equipment to do the scanning job for you is very cost effective.
I will repeat again - O.S. engines has the capability to produce high quality, excellent tolerance engines and the results speak for themselves.
If a V01B can retail for U$185 in HK and this engine has gone through distributors, etc. - how much effort does it take to clone a JP replica?
With their own milling/cutting machine and a CAD drawing with a JP engine in front of their face - you are saying they CAN'T do it?
I DON'T SUGGEST O.S. to perform cloning/copying - I am referring to other engine manufacturer's to do so - i.e. Force engines.
If a company in Japan can succeed, there is no reason a company in China/Taiwan shouldn't.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND: I am not asking for the asian engine manufacturers to go and develop (R&D) their own engine. Do a copy or a similar copy to JP or the like - stellar performance at a very reasonable price ($200-300).
I don't ask them to break copyright laws either - but since they are already notorious to copy other people's products - surely this is just another drop in the bucket for them.
With regards to JP's demand/price figure - tell me if JP can sell $300 Black lines, their demand will not soar.
The reason there is little demand is due to their current pricing strategy.
01-27-2004 | 09:02 PM
#21
Tech Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 716
From: Long Island, New York
If a company were able to do that and sell engines that are equal in quality and performance to Novarossis, Novarossi would go out of business, and then who would they copy? Part of the reason Novarossi engines cost so much is like the others said, the development and hours of R&D time.
01-27-2004 | 09:35 PM
#23
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,296
From: Oxnard, CA
It seems that we cant get into your thick head
You make it sound way too simple. You cant just build an engine and it will work, you NEED R&D.
But all of these parts are critical to the proper function of the engine. Lets take TopGun's engines. He makes it seem, to any person who doesnt know him too good, like he is just the average hobbiest who built his engine. But he isnt, he has decades of expirience in 2 stroke engine desingn, operation and modifying. He allready has 50% of the equation, the other 50% is manufacturing. (theres adds and money, but we wont get into that).
You are taking these 2 parts of engine production and generalising them, like everybody and their brother could do it tomorrow. You need years of working in any of these 2 areas before you can even think of making any device, let alone an engine.
Like I said in my other post, we dont live in a perfect world.
You make it sound way too simple. You cant just build an engine and it will work, you NEED R&D.
2 stroke engine contain few parts.
You are taking these 2 parts of engine production and generalising them, like everybody and their brother could do it tomorrow. You need years of working in any of these 2 areas before you can even think of making any device, let alone an engine.
Like I said in my other post, we dont live in a perfect world.
01-27-2004 | 09:46 PM
#24
Tech Champion
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,999
From: Heaven
Originally posted by nitrodude
It seems that we cant get into your thick head You make it sound way too simple. You cant just build an engine and it will work, you NEED R&D.
But all of these parts are critical to the proper function of the engine. Lets take TopGun's engines. He makes it seem, to any person who doesnt know him too good, like he is just the average hobbiest who built his engine. But he isnt, he has decades of expirience in 2 stroke engine desingn, operation and modifying. He allready has 50% of the equation, the other 50% is manufacturing. (theres adds and money, but we wont get into that).
You are taking these 2 parts of engine production and generalising them, like everybody and their brother could do it tomorrow. You need years of working in any of these 2 areas before you can even think of making any device, let alone an engine.
Like I said in my other post, we dont live in a perfect world.
It seems that we cant get into your thick head
You make it sound way too simple. You cant just build an engine and it will work, you NEED R&D. But all of these parts are critical to the proper function of the engine. Lets take TopGun's engines. He makes it seem, to any person who doesnt know him too good, like he is just the average hobbiest who built his engine. But he isnt, he has decades of expirience in 2 stroke engine desingn, operation and modifying. He allready has 50% of the equation, the other 50% is manufacturing. (theres adds and money, but we wont get into that).
You are taking these 2 parts of engine production and generalising them, like everybody and their brother could do it tomorrow. You need years of working in any of these 2 areas before you can even think of making any device, let alone an engine.
Like I said in my other post, we dont live in a perfect world.
01-27-2004 | 10:08 PM
#25
Thread Starter
Tech Initiate
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 45
People - I was referring to current engine manufacturers - NOT you and me or Joe Bloe in the corner. Who the HELL thinks I want to do this???
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ASIAN MANUFACTURERS TO START PRODUCING JP LEVEL POWER MOTORS FOR $200-300.
Thats all I am trying to put in this thread. I don't force feed anyone anything.
i.e. O.S. have the knowledge and the equipment to change the market - they just don't want or feel its necesary for them to.
Force makes engines, albeit shoddy and a POS - they do have experience in making engines. They know how to cast a part, make a clay mould, etc. etc.
Dollarwise its definitely possible. Judge the O.S. model I mentioned in the previous post for yourself.
Besides new exotic materials - what is the difference between a V01B and a JP Black P5 - other than design?
You are telling me, if I give Honda a copy of the Ford Cosworth Indy engine blueprint and material specifications - they cannot make an identical working copy with the same characteristics in their workshop?
What does copying means? No/very limited R&D. How long would China had the A-Bomb if someone did not smuggle critical weapons information from the USA?
I don't ask for full fledge 100% copy and rebadge. Anything that does not violate copyright infringement will surely can be very similar to a JP/Nova.
Nitrodude - I think its you are the one with the thick head.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ASIAN MANUFACTURERS TO START PRODUCING JP LEVEL POWER MOTORS FOR $200-300.
Thats all I am trying to put in this thread. I don't force feed anyone anything.
i.e. O.S. have the knowledge and the equipment to change the market - they just don't want or feel its necesary for them to.
Force makes engines, albeit shoddy and a POS - they do have experience in making engines. They know how to cast a part, make a clay mould, etc. etc.
Dollarwise its definitely possible. Judge the O.S. model I mentioned in the previous post for yourself.
Besides new exotic materials - what is the difference between a V01B and a JP Black P5 - other than design?
You are telling me, if I give Honda a copy of the Ford Cosworth Indy engine blueprint and material specifications - they cannot make an identical working copy with the same characteristics in their workshop?
What does copying means? No/very limited R&D. How long would China had the A-Bomb if someone did not smuggle critical weapons information from the USA?
I don't ask for full fledge 100% copy and rebadge. Anything that does not violate copyright infringement will surely can be very similar to a JP/Nova.
Nitrodude - I think its you are the one with the thick head.
01-27-2004 | 11:32 PM
#26
Tech Fanatic
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 978
From: Everywhere,yet Nowhere!
I agree with everything that gonsped has said and he is very good at simplifying the already simple art of making high performance .21 engines.I for one will support you in your efforts as much as I can.
I'm thinking it would be unfair for anyone of us to use your great ideas and take all the credit for them so we will let you go out and get credit for them.So tell me,how many of these Asian manufactures which you call "copiers" have you approached already with your simple but at the same time revolutionary ideas?
Keep us posted because I'm sure a deal is waiting for you around the corner with a top level engine mfg especially if they are lucky enough to read you deep insight and knowledge on how easy it is to produce h-performance engines.
I'm thinking it would be unfair for anyone of us to use your great ideas and take all the credit for them so we will let you go out and get credit for them.So tell me,how many of these Asian manufactures which you call "copiers" have you approached already with your simple but at the same time revolutionary ideas?
Keep us posted because I'm sure a deal is waiting for you around the corner with a top level engine mfg especially if they are lucky enough to read you deep insight and knowledge on how easy it is to produce h-performance engines.
01-27-2004 | 11:34 PM
#27
Tech Champion
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,999
From: Heaven
Originally posted by EVOLUTION
I agree with everything that gonsped has said and he is very good at simplifying the already simple art of making high performance .21 engines.I for one will support you in your efforts as much as I can.
I'm thinking it would be unfair for anyone of us to use your great ideas and take all the credit for them so we will let you go out and get credit for them.So tell me,how many of these Asian manufactures which you call "copiers" have you approached already with your simple but at the same time revolutionary ideas?
Keep us posted because I'm sure a deal is waiting for you around the corner with a top level engine mfg especially if they are lucky enough to read you deep insight and knowledge on how easy it is to produce h-performance engines.
I agree with everything that gonsped has said and he is very good at simplifying the already simple art of making high performance .21 engines.I for one will support you in your efforts as much as I can.
I'm thinking it would be unfair for anyone of us to use your great ideas and take all the credit for them so we will let you go out and get credit for them.So tell me,how many of these Asian manufactures which you call "copiers" have you approached already with your simple but at the same time revolutionary ideas?
Keep us posted because I'm sure a deal is waiting for you around the corner with a top level engine mfg especially if they are lucky enough to read you deep insight and knowledge on how easy it is to produce h-performance engines.
01-28-2004 | 01:12 AM
#28
Tech Regular
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 269
From: Redondo Beach Calif
Originally posted by gonsped
People - I was referring to current engine manufacturers - NOT you and me or Joe Bloe in the corner. Who the HELL thinks I want to do this???
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ASIAN MANUFACTURERS TO START PRODUCING JP LEVEL POWER MOTORS FOR $200-300.
Thats all I am trying to put in this thread. I don't force feed anyone anything.
i.e. O.S. have the knowledge and the equipment to change the market - they just don't want or feel its necesary for them to.
Force makes engines, albeit shoddy and a POS - they do have experience in making engines. They know how to cast a part, make a clay mould, etc. etc.
Dollarwise its definitely possible. Judge the O.S. model I mentioned in the previous post for yourself.
Besides new exotic materials - what is the difference between a V01B and a JP Black P5 - other than design?
You are telling me, if I give Honda a copy of the Ford Cosworth Indy engine blueprint and material specifications - they cannot make an identical working copy with the same characteristics in their workshop?
What does copying means? No/very limited R&D. How long would China had the A-Bomb if someone did not smuggle critical weapons information from the USA?
I don't ask for full fledge 100% copy and rebadge. Anything that does not violate copyright infringement will surely can be very similar to a JP/Nova.
Nitrodude - I think its you are the one with the thick head.
People - I was referring to current engine manufacturers - NOT you and me or Joe Bloe in the corner. Who the HELL thinks I want to do this???
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ASIAN MANUFACTURERS TO START PRODUCING JP LEVEL POWER MOTORS FOR $200-300.
Thats all I am trying to put in this thread. I don't force feed anyone anything.
i.e. O.S. have the knowledge and the equipment to change the market - they just don't want or feel its necesary for them to.
Force makes engines, albeit shoddy and a POS - they do have experience in making engines. They know how to cast a part, make a clay mould, etc. etc.
Dollarwise its definitely possible. Judge the O.S. model I mentioned in the previous post for yourself.
Besides new exotic materials - what is the difference between a V01B and a JP Black P5 - other than design?
You are telling me, if I give Honda a copy of the Ford Cosworth Indy engine blueprint and material specifications - they cannot make an identical working copy with the same characteristics in their workshop?
What does copying means? No/very limited R&D. How long would China had the A-Bomb if someone did not smuggle critical weapons information from the USA?
I don't ask for full fledge 100% copy and rebadge. Anything that does not violate copyright infringement will surely can be very similar to a JP/Nova.
Nitrodude - I think its you are the one with the thick head.
Let me ask you something....Have you ever worked in a Manufacturing plant? Let me ask you one more thing... Have you ever worked in a Top Notch Manufacturing plant? Top Level Production comes from Top level employees who have a sence of pride in the work they do. Anyone can copy a design and produce a Great prototype to an exsisting design but all it takes is one flaw one disgrutled or untrained person to blow an entire production run. Building a state of the art Motor is easier for one well trained person to do then to make a production line work.Mass Building meeting a production speed record doesn't win races. You have to hire well trained people who require more money and more time to make sure every single part produced is exactly to specs which takes more expensive material and tools to complete the job.I don't Buy the Most expensive anything and try not to buy the least expensive either but I do Shop around and have been bitten more then once on a less expensive as well as a more expensive unproven item. I Have an STS D3 and i think it is fast and I know they have copied a design and i know that they are cheaper in comparison to the motor they copied. Is it as good a motor? I would have to spend the money and see if the motor they copied failed too. Would The other motor mfg. respond to that failure as well as STS? I Highly doubt it, Same as Ford Cosworth. You Blow one of their motors its racing, you blow a knockoff.....Probably racing too but it might have been due to a production problem.
In Saying all of this i'm not putting anyone down.
I think .21 motors are very expensive but alot is demanded of them as well. In Making Parts that require small tooling costs go up as everything has to be exact and tools wear very quickly in exact applications.When tools are made cheaper it is because labor and or materials are cheaper.Why are they cheaper? Lesser trained people or cheaper materials..... If you want a Top Notch Motor That performs Top Notch from the start to the end but don't want to pay Dollars outta the pocket Learn all there is to know about them and build it yourself
and you will know the high cost of tooling.Advanced Motors come from Advanced thinking not advanced copy machines. The simple fact is that no matter where it is built the more advanced the more it costs.
01-28-2004 | 03:56 AM
#30
Tech Elite
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,066
From: Melbourne OZ
Originally posted by Fisher890
2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:
* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor
Now let's not forget the pullstart!
2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:
* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor
Now let's not forget the pullstart!
I reckon if O.S. were to build an engine with 5% less horsepower than a JP, guess what? - they'd price it at maybe 15% less than a JP.
They wouldn't be giving them away.
But yeah, it's good to see the conrod isn't a critical part, or the bushings, or the gudgeon pin, or the bearings, or the needles, or the . . . you get the idea.
