Touring Car Pricesr
03-02-2005, 09:37 PM
#46
Originally posted by SpeedTech
Hi Guys,
Wow, this thread have certainly exploded since I read it earlier this morning. Very good points expressed by a lot of you (and very valid ones as well
) lets all try to keep the posts as professional as possible and try not "flame" or get into which manufacture is better than which...etc. so we can keep this thread going. The goal is to hopefully catch the attention of the manufacture executives that visits R/C Tech (and many of them do) to see the opinions of the racers on this subject
Personally, the price issue is something we deal with individual manufactures almost everyday. We always try to strive for a lower price because that's what will keep this hobby growing and more people involved inhopes that one day it become more visible as a mainstream hobby. However, we run into resistence very often and honestly, we get in trouble for trying to sell car kits too cheap (as strange as it sounds
) Which is the reason why most of the pre-order kits at the moment on our website have the manufacture suggested price listed and I have to trouble you guys to send me an email for the discount price. Unfortunately for us to continue to stay in business, and have good access to new released products, we have to play by the rules of the game of this industry and walk carefully in the political issues involved (yes, huge amounts of politic exist in this industry as well, when there is money involved, there will always be politics ) Personally I am concerned about the social responsibility (big word, I know...
) that these manufacture have towards the overall good of the hobby. When I started out racing touring car back in 1995-96, there is usually a healthy 2-3 heats of novice sedan, 2-3 heats of sportsman, 1 heat of exper stock, and so on...the key here is the amount of novice folks. Fast forward to today, I usually see one full heat of novice (if we're lucky) on any given raceday, sometimes none at all. That should be alarming for all manufactures, however, I see very few initiatives to promote new blood to the hobby. For instance, the Tamiya TCS series is a positive example that provides a good structured stepping stone system for guys to start out first in their TL01 spec class, then GT-3, GT-2, and then the big guns in GT-1 as their skills progress.
Not sure what got into me today...sorry for the long post folks, I think I should go easy on the caffine after 12 noon. However, just a kind reminder, lets keep all the post professional and constructive. maybe something positive will come out of these discussions
Steve Wang
p.s. just to reflect on something soviet posted, Sportsman racers in Japan runs 8 minute 23T and 8 minute 10T in expert modified. I'm personally all for longer racing (more time on the track is always a good thing
)
Hi Guys,
Wow, this thread have certainly exploded since I read it earlier this morning. Very good points expressed by a lot of you (and very valid ones as well
) lets all try to keep the posts as professional as possible and try not "flame" or get into which manufacture is better than which...etc. so we can keep this thread going. The goal is to hopefully catch the attention of the manufacture executives that visits R/C Tech (and many of them do) to see the opinions of the racers on this subject Personally, the price issue is something we deal with individual manufactures almost everyday. We always try to strive for a lower price because that's what will keep this hobby growing and more people involved inhopes that one day it become more visible as a mainstream hobby. However, we run into resistence very often and honestly, we get in trouble for trying to sell car kits too cheap (as strange as it sounds
) Which is the reason why most of the pre-order kits at the moment on our website have the manufacture suggested price listed and I have to trouble you guys to send me an email for the discount price. Unfortunately for us to continue to stay in business, and have good access to new released products, we have to play by the rules of the game of this industry and walk carefully in the political issues involved (yes, huge amounts of politic exist in this industry as well, when there is money involved, there will always be politics ) Personally I am concerned about the social responsibility (big word, I know... ) that these manufacture have towards the overall good of the hobby. When I started out racing touring car back in 1995-96, there is usually a healthy 2-3 heats of novice sedan, 2-3 heats of sportsman, 1 heat of exper stock, and so on...the key here is the amount of novice folks. Fast forward to today, I usually see one full heat of novice (if we're lucky) on any given raceday, sometimes none at all. That should be alarming for all manufactures, however, I see very few initiatives to promote new blood to the hobby. For instance, the Tamiya TCS series is a positive example that provides a good structured stepping stone system for guys to start out first in their TL01 spec class, then GT-3, GT-2, and then the big guns in GT-1 as their skills progress. Not sure what got into me today...sorry for the long post folks, I think I should go easy on the caffine after 12 noon. However, just a kind reminder, lets keep all the post professional and constructive.
maybe something positive will come out of these discussionsSteve Wang
p.s. just to reflect on something soviet posted, Sportsman racers in Japan runs 8 minute 23T and 8 minute 10T in expert modified. I'm personally all for longer racing (more time on the track is always a good thing
)
Lets REALLY push for 8-Min mains! The 5-Min mad dash is losing it's fun. I've almost totally switched to 1/12th scale because of the stagnation in the touring class, and let me tell you 1/12th was JUST the breath of fresh air I needed.
8-Min mains are just too good to pass up. I almost think that they could go to 10 Mins for electric now. However that would lead to a battery war at this point in time. Yet as of this writing, equipment and batts to go 8-mins are accesible to anyone in this hobby.
03-02-2005, 09:48 PM
#47
Originally posted by Soviet
Here here Steve!!!
Lets REALLY push for 8-Min mains! The 5-Min mad dash is losing it's fun. I've almost totally switched to 1/12th scale because of the stagnation in the touring class, and let me tell you 1/12th was JUST the breath of fresh air I needed.
8-Min mains are just too good to pass up. I almost think that they could go to 10 Mins for electric now. However that would lead to a battery war at this point in time. Yet as of this writing, equipment and batts to go 8-mins are accesible to anyone in this hobby.
Here here Steve!!!
Lets REALLY push for 8-Min mains! The 5-Min mad dash is losing it's fun. I've almost totally switched to 1/12th scale because of the stagnation in the touring class, and let me tell you 1/12th was JUST the breath of fresh air I needed.
8-Min mains are just too good to pass up. I almost think that they could go to 10 Mins for electric now. However that would lead to a battery war at this point in time. Yet as of this writing, equipment and batts to go 8-mins are accesible to anyone in this hobby.
03-02-2005, 09:50 PM
#48
where is this? I wonder if there have been any unfortunate explosions! 
03-02-2005, 10:13 PM
#49
Whilst it's obvious that with todays cells we can increase the race times - lets remember that the additional time needed over the day due to increased race lengths is going to be a big problem - especially at larger meetings, and reducing the number of qualifying rounds might put many racers at an disadvantage.
Remember, regardless of whether you're running for 5min or 8min, it only takes one crash or one failure to ruin a good qualifying run - at least with the current system you know you've got a couple of other rounds to get things right
Remember, regardless of whether you're running for 5min or 8min, it only takes one crash or one failure to ruin a good qualifying run - at least with the current system you know you've got a couple of other rounds to get things right
03-02-2005, 10:48 PM
#50
Originally posted by bender
Whilst it's obvious that with todays cells we can increase the race times - lets remember that the additional time needed over the day due to increased race lengths is going to be a big problem - especially at larger meetings, and reducing the number of qualifying rounds might put many racers at an disadvantage.
Remember, regardless of whether you're running for 5min or 8min, it only takes one crash or one failure to ruin a good qualifying run - at least with the current system you know you've got a couple of other rounds to get things right
Whilst it's obvious that with todays cells we can increase the race times - lets remember that the additional time needed over the day due to increased race lengths is going to be a big problem - especially at larger meetings, and reducing the number of qualifying rounds might put many racers at an disadvantage.
Remember, regardless of whether you're running for 5min or 8min, it only takes one crash or one failure to ruin a good qualifying run - at least with the current system you know you've got a couple of other rounds to get things right
I have seen this time and time again though, in a 5 minute race, I personally believe it is more difficult, near impossible almost to make up for a bad crash in the first turn, especially in a class where everyone's skill level is closely matched. However, in 8 minute racing (in one of the 23T Japan Sportsman nats video that we sell), I saw a guy that crash out due to just back luck in the beginning, caught up to the front of the pack, passed the leader, crashed on its own (the brain fart that we all experience every now and then) and was able to catch up again and finish on the podium. Even just one extra minute (6 min. racing) which we tried during our F1RL series (Tamiya F201 cars) I've seen guys that have a bad start catch up to the leader at the end and battle for the lead. One thing is for sure, to see a guy work through the pack and then challenge the leader makes racing very very exciting
Steve Wang
03-03-2005, 12:15 AM
#51
Originally posted by SpeedTech
That is true...8 minute racing will make the day longer, especially if you have 20+ heat like some of the bigger races. That's an extra hour for each round. Really it is up to the racers, do we value the longer run time (more track time) more than the longer duration of the race day. Good point...now I have to go think about that one.
I have seen this time and time again though, in a 5 minute race, I personally believe it is more difficult, near impossible almost to make up for a bad crash in the first turn, especially in a class where everyone's skill level is closely matched. However, in 8 minute racing (in one of the 23T Japan Sportsman nats video that we sell), I saw a guy that crash out due to just back luck in the beginning, caught up to the front of the pack, passed the leader, crashed on its own (the brain fart that we all experience every now and then) and was able to catch up again and finish on the podium. Even just one extra minute (6 min. racing) which we tried during our F1RL series (Tamiya F201 cars) I've seen guys that have a bad start catch up to the leader at the end and battle for the lead. One thing is for sure, to see a guy work through the pack and then challenge the leader makes racing very very exciting
Steve Wang
That is true...8 minute racing will make the day longer, especially if you have 20+ heat like some of the bigger races. That's an extra hour for each round. Really it is up to the racers, do we value the longer run time (more track time) more than the longer duration of the race day. Good point...now I have to go think about that one.
I have seen this time and time again though, in a 5 minute race, I personally believe it is more difficult, near impossible almost to make up for a bad crash in the first turn, especially in a class where everyone's skill level is closely matched. However, in 8 minute racing (in one of the 23T Japan Sportsman nats video that we sell), I saw a guy that crash out due to just back luck in the beginning, caught up to the front of the pack, passed the leader, crashed on its own (the brain fart that we all experience every now and then) and was able to catch up again and finish on the podium. Even just one extra minute (6 min. racing) which we tried during our F1RL series (Tamiya F201 cars) I've seen guys that have a bad start catch up to the leader at the end and battle for the lead. One thing is for sure, to see a guy work through the pack and then challenge the leader makes racing very very exciting
Steve Wang
Reduce it to two major touring classes and 1/12th. GT1 and GT2 for touring, they would be the same as I stated above.
This way...you can run enough qualifiers during the day to keep the track from getting too crowded (3 qualifiers) , AND run 3 mains each if you need too.
You could start the raceday by 10AM and end around 4:30/5:00pm with that setup.
03-03-2005, 03:25 AM
#52
Originally posted by Soviet
It breaks down like this:
IFMAR / ROAR needs to pull their heads out of their asses in order to save Touring.
Suggestion #1: We are still running 5 min Mains for Touring. WHY?!?! Oh yeah...so we can use what is supposed to be runtime and burn it up in a 7-Turn motor. So we can change brushes every 4 runs to be competitive, so we can true our comms twice a day.
Stupid, stupid STUPID! There is no reason Touring can't run an 8-Min main like 1/12th. The speeds would still be plenty fast, however we would be running 10 / 11 turn motors and gearing a bit more conservatively. The longer races would actually USE our battery technology for it's intended purpose and the races would be more exciting.
Suggestion #2: Get rid of the old 4-Door body rule. Everyone is running the latest version of squashed jellybean. The class is no longer visually exciting and different.
Suggestion #3: Get rid of Stock motors. Restructure the Touring Class like other GT series and create GT1 and GT2 classes. GT1 would be unlimited Modified and GT2 would be 19-Turn motors. All the while of course remembering that you need to make your car last 8 mins.
I confidently feel that if the rules were changed according to my suggestions, Touring and ALL electric On-Road racing would be more fun and exciting, along with a bit easier on the wallet. Because in the end, it is NOT about factory drivers...it's about YOU.
It breaks down like this:
IFMAR / ROAR needs to pull their heads out of their asses in order to save Touring.
Suggestion #1: We are still running 5 min Mains for Touring. WHY?!?! Oh yeah...so we can use what is supposed to be runtime and burn it up in a 7-Turn motor. So we can change brushes every 4 runs to be competitive, so we can true our comms twice a day.
Stupid, stupid STUPID! There is no reason Touring can't run an 8-Min main like 1/12th. The speeds would still be plenty fast, however we would be running 10 / 11 turn motors and gearing a bit more conservatively. The longer races would actually USE our battery technology for it's intended purpose and the races would be more exciting.
Suggestion #2: Get rid of the old 4-Door body rule. Everyone is running the latest version of squashed jellybean. The class is no longer visually exciting and different.
Suggestion #3: Get rid of Stock motors. Restructure the Touring Class like other GT series and create GT1 and GT2 classes. GT1 would be unlimited Modified and GT2 would be 19-Turn motors. All the while of course remembering that you need to make your car last 8 mins.
I confidently feel that if the rules were changed according to my suggestions, Touring and ALL electric On-Road racing would be more fun and exciting, along with a bit easier on the wallet. Because in the end, it is NOT about factory drivers...it's about YOU.
Touring class slowing down ..........I'm assumming that you race in the hampton Road area, Va Beach. I was station in Norfolk just a few month ago and it was always a good turnout , if anything touring car is saving this hobby
03-03-2005, 05:00 AM
#53
Re: Touring Car Pricesr
Originally posted by bigragu
Is it me or are the prices of touring cars becoming like crazy
yokomo belt drive $419
xray $390
corally $420
tamiya $475
what happened when high priced cars were like $280
Is it me or are the prices of touring cars becoming like crazy
yokomo belt drive $419
xray $390
corally $420
tamiya $475
what happened when high priced cars were like $280
we are actualy at a disadvantage when it comes to tc, its the biggest class raced around the world... just check events results, (look at snowbirds,
how does a racer that has no/1 or 2days of carpet experiance, win??... why, tc thats all they know (well maybe not) but you know what i mean...
03-03-2005, 06:07 AM
#54
I remember when the first Tamiya's came out, they were very toyish looking.... I raced strictly off road back then but I never got one because they looked like a toy compared to my pan cars... Then Boom... This was supposed to be the cheap alternative to pan cars.. Yea right, the fragile little things break if you look at them the wrong way....
At my local track there are very few newbies... There's the demolition derby crew who come on practice days but you'll never see them race....
In a short time we'll all be running to get the Roar approved 3700's, when honestly, we only NEED 2200's....
As for the body debate, there's been a post going on in the Roar forum.... The manufacturers are not going to put R&D into something that's not going to make them money, ie;GT class shells.... The rules need to be changed to allow them to be raced...
When the RC10T came out with the stealth tranny, I ran out to get one... Don't remember the year, I did too much pot back then... Anyway.... It was probably about 1990 and the kit was aaaprox $150....
Fast forward to 2005.... You can get a T4 for what, 180???? so, 30 dollar difference.... The T4 actually cost me less money than the 10T.... I'd have used TC's as my comparison, but they didn't exist....
At my local track there are very few newbies... There's the demolition derby crew who come on practice days but you'll never see them race....
In a short time we'll all be running to get the Roar approved 3700's, when honestly, we only NEED 2200's....
As for the body debate, there's been a post going on in the Roar forum.... The manufacturers are not going to put R&D into something that's not going to make them money, ie;GT class shells.... The rules need to be changed to allow them to be raced...
When the RC10T came out with the stealth tranny, I ran out to get one... Don't remember the year, I did too much pot back then... Anyway.... It was probably about 1990 and the kit was aaaprox $150....
Fast forward to 2005.... You can get a T4 for what, 180???? so, 30 dollar difference.... The T4 actually cost me less money than the 10T.... I'd have used TC's as my comparison, but they didn't exist....
03-03-2005, 07:01 AM
#56
Originally posted by NVisible
Could you not run qualifyers at 5 mins, and the mains at 8 min? thus giving the mains a more "The Main Event" type feel, and freeing up some time for qualifying?
Could you not run qualifyers at 5 mins, and the mains at 8 min? thus giving the mains a more "The Main Event" type feel, and freeing up some time for qualifying?
Also, the quals would become mad speed dashes. With the super-fast 5 min guys all getting into the A-Main, when a more consistant driver running their 8-min setup would almost be assured B-Main status.
I suppose it could be a good compromise though.
03-03-2005, 07:47 AM
#57
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i'm still a noob myself.
what still pull me in this touring car hobbies is
" there are lots of variety of car shells to choose from."
even tho their handling just plan horrible. but to run a car in your
dream is always better then not running it.
Seeing people run bunch of differnt car shell is so fun.
So i do agree roar should at least try to change the
rule a little. as most of the racing shell don't resemable their counter parts anyway.
i start off from buying things from cheap to expensive.
goes thru 2 different kind of charger. 2 radios, 3 esc, 4 motors, 1 leathe, tool,more weird stuff and times. things do added up even
if you buy good used stuffs. how can we tell the new comer that
you have to spend tons of money to be really be in the loop.
$300 for a RTR is quite expensive for them already.
add a decent charger of 60+, 2 extra betteries, 70+, a decent
stock motor, 30+ , decent tools, 45+. this a good 500 bones to start your racing or bashing career. maybe it is just me. but i think
if we can tell the new comer that all you need to spend is around
240 dollor that can get you running and you also get a decent charger. there might be more people to join the TC hobbies with us. T-spec or politics anyone?
i know i'm side tracked and just jack the post.
but money is always an issue for everyone. not everyone
can blow a good hard earn $500+ at once.
*edit*
i would love to run an 8 min long main. as our battery is good
enough for the abuse already.
what still pull me in this touring car hobbies is
" there are lots of variety of car shells to choose from."
even tho their handling just plan horrible. but to run a car in your
dream is always better then not running it.
Seeing people run bunch of differnt car shell is so fun.
So i do agree roar should at least try to change the
rule a little. as most of the racing shell don't resemable their counter parts anyway.
i start off from buying things from cheap to expensive.
goes thru 2 different kind of charger. 2 radios, 3 esc, 4 motors, 1 leathe, tool,more weird stuff and times. things do added up even
if you buy good used stuffs. how can we tell the new comer that
you have to spend tons of money to be really be in the loop.
$300 for a RTR is quite expensive for them already.
add a decent charger of 60+, 2 extra betteries, 70+, a decent
stock motor, 30+ , decent tools, 45+. this a good 500 bones to start your racing or bashing career. maybe it is just me. but i think
if we can tell the new comer that all you need to spend is around
240 dollor that can get you running and you also get a decent charger. there might be more people to join the TC hobbies with us. T-spec or politics anyone?
i know i'm side tracked and just jack the post.
but money is always an issue for everyone. not everyone
can blow a good hard earn $500+ at once.
*edit*
i would love to run an 8 min long main. as our battery is good
enough for the abuse already.
Last edited by aoizip; 03-03-2005 at 08:25 AM.
03-03-2005, 08:09 AM
#58
Originally posted by Soviet
A good idea, however you would need totally gear different between the qualifiers and the mains.
Also, the quals would become mad speed dashes. With the super-fast 5 min guys all getting into the A-Main, when a more consistant driver running their 8-min setup would almost be assured B-Main status.
I suppose it could be a good compromise though.
A good idea, however you would need totally gear different between the qualifiers and the mains.
Also, the quals would become mad speed dashes. With the super-fast 5 min guys all getting into the A-Main, when a more consistant driver running their 8-min setup would almost be assured B-Main status.
I suppose it could be a good compromise though.
03-03-2005, 08:41 AM
#59
Originally posted by NVisible
good point. I wonder if it could be just a testing ground to see how the 8min main works out, and possibly implementing it to include quals depending on the response. gotta start somewhere i guess.
good point. I wonder if it could be just a testing ground to see how the 8min main works out, and possibly implementing it to include quals depending on the response. gotta start somewhere i guess.
Standard 5 min format.
Class A 5,5,5 Main 5 20mins
Class B 5,5,5 Main 5 20mins
Class C 5,5,5 Main 5 20mins
Total Tracktime = 1 Hour
New 8 min format.
Class A 8,8,8 Main 8 32mins
Class B 8,8,8 Main 8 32mins
Class C 8,8,8 Main 8 32mins
Total Tracktime = 1 Hour 36Mins
So really, all other things being the same, all you need for 3 classes of touring is an additional 36 Minutes of time in the raceday. All other things would be the same. 5 Mins between heats, 45 min lunch break before Mains, etc.
I really don't think finding an additional 1/2 hour to 45-50 mins would be THAT hard considering the benefit to the sport.
03-03-2005, 08:47 AM
#60
Just what I have seen at the different tracks...
At the local parking lot track...."8 Minutes are you sick" These noobs you want to come and join in the fun can not get all the right gear to make it 8 minutes...I am sorry but it is true. Soem of these little kids that will be the next generation of racers are barely making 5 Minutes.
At tracks liek SoCal there are more Pro/Intermediate drivers than Noobs.
The compitision pushes what is next.
I say 8 Minutes sounds real nice but add that to the already super long day @ places like SoCal when you are lucky to get out of there before 11PM could you amagin another 3hours...Good Greef..No thanks.
SoCal would have to start races @ 11Am to be able to finish before 10PM with 8 minutes heats.
I agree with Soviet about the need for change.
Maybe 6.5 Minute quals and mains.
I know that my unmatched IB 3600 's last 9 minutes at full race timing. So yes the technoligy is there but how many 12yr olds can buy 3600's when they are barely able to by 3000mah stick packs. (& we all know how stick packs are).
I think maybe steve hit the nail on the head.
Run a nood class that runs 5 minute heats and mains.
Run an intermediate class @ 6 Minutes
A Sportsman class @ 7 minutes
& a Pro class that run 8 Minutes.
And then let the MOD guys go as long as they can....I personally like the speed of Stock racing but have been looking @ 19T, but MOD forget it I would turn my $400 TC into a $400 pile of carbonaluminumtitaniam oooz.
That would also help those who are able to afford better batts to move up quicker. At least the time issue gets resloved as we know a noob crashes more than just once.....Funnest class to watch if you are a Rubbernecker for crashes though.
OK Steve being that you are region 12 director for ROAR....Lets see those rules implimented...
Just my $0.02
-Stephen <><
At the local parking lot track...."8 Minutes are you sick" These noobs you want to come and join in the fun can not get all the right gear to make it 8 minutes...I am sorry but it is true. Soem of these little kids that will be the next generation of racers are barely making 5 Minutes.
At tracks liek SoCal there are more Pro/Intermediate drivers than Noobs.
The compitision pushes what is next.
I say 8 Minutes sounds real nice but add that to the already super long day @ places like SoCal when you are lucky to get out of there before 11PM could you amagin another 3hours...Good Greef..No thanks.
SoCal would have to start races @ 11Am to be able to finish before 10PM with 8 minutes heats.
I agree with Soviet about the need for change.
Maybe 6.5 Minute quals and mains.
I know that my unmatched IB 3600 's last 9 minutes at full race timing. So yes the technoligy is there but how many 12yr olds can buy 3600's when they are barely able to by 3000mah stick packs. (& we all know how stick packs are).
I think maybe steve hit the nail on the head.
Run a nood class that runs 5 minute heats and mains.
Run an intermediate class @ 6 Minutes
A Sportsman class @ 7 minutes
& a Pro class that run 8 Minutes.
And then let the MOD guys go as long as they can....I personally like the speed of Stock racing but have been looking @ 19T, but MOD forget it I would turn my $400 TC into a $400 pile of carbonaluminumtitaniam oooz.
That would also help those who are able to afford better batts to move up quicker. At least the time issue gets resloved as we know a noob crashes more than just once.....Funnest class to watch if you are a Rubbernecker for crashes though.
OK Steve being that you are region 12 director for ROAR....Lets see those rules implimented...
Just my $0.02
-Stephen <><