I guess we have to leave this thing alone. I guess everybody got their point. I did get proved my points already many times, now it is Hellion's turn-I am sure a lot of guys wants to see it.
End of story untill "track time"!!!!!

I'm still a bit confused. The piston/conrod weigh less than the crankshaft, so how exactly is the 52-58% of p/c weight , the ideal weight of the crankshaft???

It should not be the ideal weight of the whole crankshaft ( but I do like light crankshaft) it is the counter weight and any weight below the crankpin that's matter in this discussion.

As we mentioned, if the Piston/ conrod / crankpin and e clips ( need to be careful, I need to be specific about the parts )
all weight 10g, then take 5.2g of any material (52%) and put on the crankpin and then see where the crankpin position/ balanced at.
It is overbalance if the pin with the weight not at the BDC and that's our experience.

However, a lot of Mod Nova based engine ( .12 only) are underbalance like JP and Max, so that's what it is.

good luck

Kit Racer,

Thanks for the clear and concise response! One last question...What is the performance effect of an underbalanced vs. an overbalanced crank? If any?

Thanks.

OK guys both of you keep up the good work! Let's see you guys get it on at the track!!!

Danny: Do we have any spare bodies?? I'ts getting warmer here and racing about to start, I need a few!! I still have your tires bro!! I'll try to get them out to ya soon.
Dannys bodies work very well !! Some people don't like the looks but hell! what ever works!!! We set fastest time on local track with his bodies and all I did was change bodies, corner speed and down force was unreal!!! Bob

Interesting reading. First let me say that I have no connection with Top gun or Hellion other than I tried a early Top gun PS with fairly good results.
I am in the high perf engine business and I have balanced hundreds of automotive engines so this thread caught my eye. I read Top guns explanation of how he does his balancing and although it is a little hard to follow... because English is not his native langauge... I did find his method to be sound. While using a bob weight (as he suggests) works best with a spin balancer it will also work with his static balance method... many people still balance Harley's this way. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.
That said.... I don't recommend the average guy trying to balance his .12 motor just from reading a couple of paragraphs on a forum either. A much more detailed explanation with pictures would help people understand Top Guns method better.

i'll be at the next winter nats and welcome all comers to run down my car i like the max motors with the squeezed sleave and all the port work you can stand fort myers is my home track and i think you will all be fighting for gas milage and horsepower to make up for all the traction it has

It is realy time to go.
It was realy good intertaning for couple of days.
The result of this intertaimnet is-the Hellion promise to bring Froged cranckcase and beat casted. Well, I am sure he will do it, otherwise what about credobility?
Hanging on Internet and reading articles about new technologies ( ie. new platings, new parts making ways etc) is very easy thing to do. Bring to life something what you read about sort of different thing. If you never make any parts for RC engines yourself and just keep carving existing models-everything looks realy easy and by "1-2-3" will be done. But in real life it is not happening. Just to make point solid-make one prototype and show to everybody, then when everybody sees it, they will make judjement. So far Hellion, nothing real in engine's stuff you have offer. I do remember clear, a year ago or so, you were bitching that Mugen sent you shaft without turbo scoop. If you are realy know what to do, it is so easy to cut scoop-it is about 1/2 hour work, but that sample does show to me, it is issue for you to make scoop, why would I talk any of your words about engines.
I am ready to discuse ( and do with a lot of moddifiers) about engines and I am sharring my knowolodge and ready to support any experiments and/or production by providing some techology or even ready parts and I do it. When you, Hellion, sad you want to try to make engine, I offered to you help, but as a feedback I got "intertaiment". It sound fishy for me. It sound that you have tried to show people that you are really good in engines as in boddies designs ( ???-heven't seen one yet), and nothing really came out of you yet. So, what I will suggest-bring something that will realy put all of us, who use casting methods to make case, down. I know it will be realy hard to beat all engine's manufacturers ( everybody use casting, even forging actualy cheaper and required less machine work), but I am sure you can do it. You can do it and you know why , because you are smart and the rest of the world are idiots, but untill you bring something in metall, I am not sure if everybody agree with me , that you are smarter then Novarossi, Sirio, STS, OS........ and me.
So, finaly, bring it on, showed to people and then get respect.
I was incuraged to do so ( it was a year and half ago when I claim that Motorman ideas can be improved) and I did it and did got respect and very proud of it. Dennice Richey promised to bring engine and he did it and he got much more respect.
I do proud that I am able to bring to racers something. Now Hellion, it is turn for you to do the same or stop claiming you can do it.
Best regards
Edward

Well first off, if you read through the Palmaris thread you will find at least one company that you can contact. If you check who TQed the 2004 Winternats as was previously mentioned (and is common knowledge around this forum) you will see a second.

Secondly, we had our first club round today and Palmaris Ireland teamdrivers qualified 1,2,3 and finished 1st, 4th and 6th against all the latest megas, jp's and Rody's etc.... So we must be doing something right. Myself and one of my colleagues held the 2 fastest laptimes all day. To top that off there were even 2 guys running in the final with Lola shells and 5-port engines against our EFRA legal cars (saloon shells) and engines (3-port 7mm crank restriction). I guess Ed must be doing something right.

It was allready ended, you're the one that came back on and continued insulting and calling Ed names.

Well, we were not siting here waiting for you to mouth off. We have better things to do. Its easy to sit behind a keyboard and act all tough and call people names, and say I can do this and I can do that. Well, Ed said I can do this engine and he did, so if you talk the talk, you better walk the walk, HELLNO.

I was going to stay out of this (its not my inclination to get up in other's business) but simply put eds information about crank balance is accurate. (no the sleeve is not part of the equation. He knows this and knowing Ed it was just the way he wrote it)(I struggled with the way ed wrote things in the beginning to and took things wrong but after meeting him I can tell you he is nothing like the way some have portrayed him. Its just his writing style) I like a percentage a little higher than his but generally you want the the piston weight, pin, clips and a percentage of the rod mass to balance the crank counterweight at a 90 degree angle. making a suitable bob weight will get you there. what you are actually trying to achieve is an equal or slightly offset vibration in the horizontal and vertical plane. slightly more or less vibration in one plane or the other can be usefull or can seriously upset the fuel flow through the engine. I have seen a marine .90 engine that was so bad out of balance from the manufacturer that it literally hit an rpm wall and would rev no further untill we rearranged the balance of the engine.

again eds information was accurate enough to get his jist. If you want to pick fly shit out of the pepper go find the information yourself.

thats how I feel about it.

..

Well spoken Dennis!!!

I know I'm gona hate this but maybe not. I'm getting up there in years but I'm very close to my dad he came over tonight and I told him about how much fun we had in this post and he smiled and gave me that look ! You know that gut renching guilt trip look. So I snaped at him and said WHATTTT!!! and he said o nothing you don't like this guy huh? and I said it's not that I don't like him he just brags all the time and I thought I would take him down a few levels. here comes the look again and I knew I was tost he goes on to say just for fun let's switch you and him let's just say this guy came into one of your threds and blasted out a flaw in one of your bodies and to make matters worse he was right. How would you handle it. I started pacing and told him god I hate it when you do this and he sais naaa your not mad at me your mad at your self and Im sure you will do the right thing....... TOP GUN I was wrong I should have PMd you and told you about the mistake but blasting it in front of every one was way out of line I know we will probley never be good friends but I hope you forgive me for pulling a stunt like that but if not I would understand it won't happen again to every one else I also apologize

Hey Hellion, don't hate it. Nobody is perfect and sometimes we have to listen and see ourself from the other side and sometimes it looks realy nasty, it is including everybody.
You don’t need to apologize. Yes I know issue about my English and not much I can change.
As I sad many times before- I have been in Nitro engines for while and believe me we tried a lot of stuff and not always been successful, actually many times we fail. But during all this trials we definitely picked up a lot of info, learn and find parallels between rules, laws and reality. I know there are a lot of new technologies been developed lately, but most of them for one or other reason can’t be applied to our application. Also some stuff and ## I publish here in forum can’t be use on stock engines for different reasons (different sleeve’s and piston’s materials, different porting, timings etc), but general idea is very solid.
When I was offering to you help, I was really and honestly trying to help you and nothing bad was behind it.
For some reason you pick it up wrong.
About-we can’t be friends-here you are absolutely wrong. For instance-I was fighting with Dennis here in forum for months (more then I did with you) and one day I meet him in person, we talk and since that time we are very good friends, sharing info, discussing issues etc. I never remember bad thing, so I am open for any relationship and I am not thinking to have you as an enemy. I am sure one day we meet in person and it will be different story.
BTW, I have no clue about bodies, how that thing work, aerodynamics of it etc, even I was building tether hydro for 17 years, and I am pretty good in that area, but here in RC cars-I am first level student.
I guess we clear all points and still if you need yny kind of help in your engine, let me know and I can share with you couple of tricks that I learn over the years.
Best regards
Edward