Just guessing here, but maybe having to due with the the Asociated B2 and T2 being released in 1995. Kind of deciding after that designs being "more" modern than the original cars?

I could write a book on this topic. Maybe I should write a book on this topic

Anyway...the simple answer to this question is that the VONATS makes 1994 their cutoff year, with a few exceptions per the race organizer's judgment. The main goal is to be in the "spirit" of vintage racing, so the 1994 rule is not a super hard rule, but more of a guideline. It may seem like an arbitrary year, but I think there is some logic to it...

I think that, ideally, we would classify vintage cars by era, which is similar to what is done for "classic" and “vintage” classes (which are substantially separated by wheel size and Tamiya plastic crap), but with a bit more detail that accounts for advancements in materials and manufacturing. If you think about it, early r/c cars used what I like to call "blocks and plates." In other words, there were few if any molded parts in comparison to today's cars (Tamiya plastic crap notwithstanding), which have molded bulkheads, shock towers, etc. So you have to consider that and the materials used. Early cars used metal and fiberglass, and then towards the late '80's, we started to see carbon fiber incorporation in plate form (shock towers, transmission braces, etc.). That carried through to about 1994 when the Losi XX was released...

The Losi XX was a real game changer, as it was the first (from what I recall) true racing r/c car to be made substantially of molded composites. The Losi XX, by current VONATS rules, is vintage "legal." However, the later Kinwald/CR edition is not, due to some upgrades that Scott Puma could tell you more about (I think a molded graphite chassis was among them, plus a separation between the chassis and rear bulkhead?), but nonetheless the CR was run primarily against the RC10 B2, whereas the original XX, for its time, was run primarily against the Team Car and the World's Car, which should both be vintage legal. The material difference between molded graphite and molded composite may be the real separating factor here. Graphite in its purest form is made only of carbon bound to other carbon atoms with a specific lattice with a specific unit cell along an atomic monolayer, and it is extremely difficult to synthesize defect-free graphene over large areas. You will never see “true” graphite in r/c or most applications, because what we colloquially call graphite for shock towers, etc., is really strands of carbon fiber that are woven into a sheet and then glued to other sheets. You typically only see this type of “graphite” (really carbon fiber) in plate form, where you have multiple layers of graphite glued together. To make molded graphite is very hard, since you need to combine graphite (or most likely carbon fiber strands) with some kind of polymer to “glue” it all together into whatever shape you want (since graphite on its own is basically soot/dust), and I suspect it took some time to find the right mix for this. So, although the XX CR has “graphite” written on the bottom of the chassis, I suspect it is not true graphite but instead molded carbon fiber. Molded “composite” is different from graphite in that the composite material is some kind of polymer that is cured to result in cross-linking between the polymer chains. This creates a very strong plastic that can be molded into any shape. It doesn’t have to have graphite or carbon fiber in it, but if you look at the World’s Car for example, the front and rear black suspension arms were molded composite “doped” with carbon fiber threads for added strength. This (and the stronger, milled chassis) may be why some consider the World’s Car to not be vintage legal, but frankly I don’t see a problem there, as the change is relatively minor.

Frankly, I don’t personally see a problem with the CR as a vintage legal chassis, since it is substantially the same as the XX, but this is the logic that I understand behind it being not vintage legal. Technically, the CR is the result of advancements in materials processing and so it represents a new era of r/c, even though that material was applied to an existing platform. For reasons like this, the old Losi chassis makes vintage definition a little tricky, because technically speaking they were ahead of AE on the development curve with the XX being released 1-2 years before the RC10 B2. I would argue that the JRx series is the same “generation” as the aluminum tub RC10s, and this phase shift between the Losi and AE generations creates a gray area. A reasonable cutoff is arguably the division between the XX and XX CR, to separate out this specific materials advancement.

So for 2wd buggies and stadium trucks (which are basically the same), the cutoff is relatively straightforward or at least logically definable; however, for 4wd buggies, it gets a little more complex, in part due to the XX-4 as well as my favorite among them - the YZ10...

We'll get to the YZ10 and XX-4 in a minute, but let's start with the others first...

You have the Kyosho Optima Mid (which had many variants), and then the Kyosho Lazer ZX and ZXR, which are all vintage legal. All are belt drive and basically the same platform (not many real big differences between the Optima and the Lazer). Mostly fiberglass and/or graphite chassis and tower plates with surprisingly beefy molded nylon parts.

You have the Avante series, which started in 1988 with the Avante and ended in the early '90's with the Egress. Mostly fiberglass and/or graphite chassis and tower plates with varying plastics and metal bits to make up the suspension.

You have the Schumacher CAT XL/XLS and CAT2000. Mostly fiberglass and/or graphite chassis plates, tower plates, rake plates (plates all over), with some molded parts. You see a pattern here? Now, the CAT2000 was released in 1993, and the 2000EC (European Championship) was released in 1995. The main difference between them was the 2000 has standup shocks front and rear, while the EC has laydown shocks front and rear. There are some other minor differences, like the shape of the upper deck and the lack of inserts on the rear hub carriers in the 2000EC, but fundamentally they are the ***exact*** same chassis. So...although the EC was released in 1995, you can argue it is still vintage legal, since all that is really changed is the shock mounting geometry to accomodate the higher grip carpet/astroturf tracks in Europe. There were later versions of the CAT, such as the CAT ’98, which I believe was the same with the exception of a different lower deck to put all of the NiMH cells on one side of the chassis, plus a few other bits and bobs.

Now the YZ10...

Up until 1993, all of the YZ10s were based on the earlier 870C platform, with various upgrades to increase the track width (wider arms started on the '91 Works) and reduce suspension slop ('93 Works with the torque rods between the steering brace and the c-hubs, and the turnbuckles connecting the inner hinge pins). Still the same platform, though - blocks and plates. Now...Masami won the '93 Worlds with a fundamentally different chassis that was largely replicated in the '94 YZ10. Nylon almost everywhere with some fiberglass and carbon plates thrown in. I would argue that, since it does not incorporate any specific materials advancements over other cars of that era, it is still “vintage” legal. Remember that in 1994, Masami was runnng this '94 YZ10 and a RC10 World's Car, as were many other AE drivers at the time. Losi drivers were also running the ’94 YZ10 at the time (which combined with the CAT2000 were the dominant 4wd chassis until the XX-4 came out in 1995). So, I would consider the 870-type and ’94 platforms to be of the same era (in the sense that the Losi JRx and XX presently fit within the same class) and therefore the '94 YZ10 still fits in the "vintage" class. But this is where it gets complicated...

In 1995, Mark Pavidis won the Worlds with an "upgraded" version of the '94, which really only means a different lower deck, custom shock towers, and a rear mounting plate for more camber gain and roll center tuning options. Now, would this be non-vintage-legal due to the addition of a few plates with different shapes? Hard to say. It is in the "spirit" of vintage and so you can make an argument for it, perhaps to the chagrin of hardliners. Then you had the '97 Worlds version of the YZ10, which was basically a '95 Pavidis with a small shock on the upper deck. Now we're in the late '90's, though, and by this time you had the Losi XX-4 (released in 1995), which was all molded parts and so was clearly outside of the blocks/plates era. I would argue that the '97 YZ10 had more to do with Yokomo trying to extend the competitiveness of an already good platform, kind of like the BJ4/B44/B44.1/B44.2, and so I wouldn’t have a problem calling all of the ’94-type YZ10s vintage legal, since each one adds a relatively minor change that has nothing to do with materials advancements. Maybe separate into two 4wd eras – pre-1995 and post-1995? More on that later…

The Yokomo MX4 came out shortly after and was more like modern buggies than the "vintage" buggies. It was also crap and nobody seriously bothered with it. Its successor was the MR4-BX, which was almost exactly like a belt drive BJ4/B44  modern chassis.

Now the XX-4, and we see that Losi is again throwing a wrench into things. It was released in 1995, same year as the CAT 2000EC, but as mentioned it was a departure from the blocks/plates era with all molded parts. To this day, people consider the XX-4 one of the best 4wd buggies ever, and this is at least partly why it is not vintage legal. Should it be penalized for being so great, or is there some other reason? We can make an argument on the materials advancements side, and in my view we can split the XX-4 into two pieces. The early XX-4 was like the original XX, using molded composites, whereas the XX-4 Worlds edition (1997 release, I think) was like the XX-CR, using a molded “graphite” chassis. I would be fine with grouping the original XX-4 in with most of the YZ10s, CAT2000s, Lazers, etc., and then perhaps defining a “molded carbon” era wherein the XX-4 Worlds can fit with other cars of its time (mid-to-late 1990’s), such as the CAT ’98, ’97 YZ10, etc., assuming there are enough entrants to satisfy both classes.

So basically, to a first order, we can define 1994, plus or minus a year or so, as the point at which the r/c industry transitioned from a substantially blocks/plates approach to building r/c cars to a substantially molded composites approach, and then perhaps another era after that where the molded parts were “graphite”. So...by that thinking...you can define two types of vintage classes - blocks/plates and molded (or give them whatever other catchy name you can think of). The molded into the early to mid-2000's, when although the manufacturing techniques were largely the same, major redesigns were in order to account for lipo batteries which are lighter than NiMH, and brushless motors which are vastly more powerful. So now you have blocks/plates era, molded era, and lipo era.

Simple enough

I think you just did write a book on this topic!! LOL
I agree with my verbose fellow racer! I think the thought with not changing the year of eligibility each year for vintage racing is just that! Simply put, if the eligibility year changed every year everyone would have to go out every year and chase the latest qualifying vintage ride ( & parts) to try & stay competitive and the true old school vintage designs would have no place to run anymore.

Hello everyone. I want to thank each and everyone of you for coming out to race yesterday! Share good times!

The kyosho line-up is in stock!!! RB6 buggy,The new RT6 stadium truck, and Lazer ZX-5 FS2 SP KIt! Get them while you can.

Thanks for the answers guys. I like my plate and block associated cars. Wish I never sold my original rc10 that I bought in the 80's. It was a lot of fun running vintage with everyone yesterday. I can't wait to get the videos posted for you guys tonight.

I would really like to race my Stadium Truck this Wed. So if you have one please bring it so we have enough to run a class.

thanks for the information reinaldo and Joe B. Reinaldo, good explanation on the different aspects on the various brands/chassis that are legal. So, it sounds like 1994 is a cutoff year, to keep the rule simple.

However, if one were to purchase a 1995 model, that is essentially still a "blocks and plate" model, as it's based on a previous edition, just maybe some minor upgraded parts, then it theoretically, could be raced? hmmm....

with vintage, I actually don't really need to win. I would just think it would be cool to see an old car like that go around the track. So, if I decide to race a vintage car, please don't crash into my car. haha.

see you jokers on wnw.

Theoretically, a 1995 YZ10 could be raced, but ultimately it depends on the race organizers (in this case, Will and John. In the case of the VONATS, it would be Erich). To whatever extent my opinion matters, I think all YZ10s should be legal, including the '97 (but the '97 is so rare that it won't matter anyway).

Wow Reinaldo I think you should write a book. Lots of good info right there.
I have to agree with Dr Joe. The cutoff date should not be moved. If it did as stated everyone would be chasing the newest platform to give them that minute edge they think they might have. it would be no different then what most do with there current vehicles.
I do think that maybe certain models should be allowed as Reinaldo pointed out with the YZ10 lineup. I personally would like to see the XX-4 allowed.

Ok 3 of 5 videos are up and can be viewed on RCHR.BIZ

The rest are still uploading and will be available on our YouTube page probably in an hour or so. I'll get them linked up to RCHR.BIZ tomorrow.

Need more details.

Only 19 days to go!

Can't wait for it. When's the new layout going down though? John did say there will be a new layout! Thanks willy.

Willy can you post the current points standings for the Vintage series?

Scott, I'm going to do them Thu night. I'll post when they are up.