Tune With Camber Links
#1141
Tech Adept
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 201
From: San Antonio, TX
Since this thread is about tuning with "camber links" you can do two things on the front camber links for more steering, traction. Unless you know exactly what you need to change, I would recommend only making one of these changes at a time until the desired result is reached:
1. Raise the front link on the shock tower. This will allow the car to roll more and put more weight on the outside tire, giving you more traction, or in your case steering. Only affects traction in corners
Raise the link= more traction
Lower the link= less traction
2. Lengthen the front camber link. This will prevent the tire from increasing its negative camber angle and decreasing the tires contact patch with the surface. Since your directly affecting the tires contact patch you can also reduce forward bite on the straights, so adjust sparingly. That sounds lame. Just remember:
longer link= more traction
shorter link= less traction
Everyone always gets confused about high and low roll centers and which way to move the links. Instead of roll center, I try to keep it simple and ask myself if I need more traction or less traction on one end of the car. If I need more traction, I go up on the tower. If I need less, I go down on the tower. Just remember to focus on the end of the car that you have the issue with. I didn't mean to take over the thread. I just saw that some people get confused in the theory and lose sight of the practical applications. Good luck.
1. Raise the front link on the shock tower. This will allow the car to roll more and put more weight on the outside tire, giving you more traction, or in your case steering. Only affects traction in corners
Raise the link= more traction
Lower the link= less traction
2. Lengthen the front camber link. This will prevent the tire from increasing its negative camber angle and decreasing the tires contact patch with the surface. Since your directly affecting the tires contact patch you can also reduce forward bite on the straights, so adjust sparingly. That sounds lame. Just remember:
longer link= more traction
shorter link= less traction
Everyone always gets confused about high and low roll centers and which way to move the links. Instead of roll center, I try to keep it simple and ask myself if I need more traction or less traction on one end of the car. If I need more traction, I go up on the tower. If I need less, I go down on the tower. Just remember to focus on the end of the car that you have the issue with. I didn't mean to take over the thread. I just saw that some people get confused in the theory and lose sight of the practical applications. Good luck.
Last edited by 400units; 01-27-2013 at 10:26 PM.
#1142
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,569
From: My house.
I was just in front of my house testing long front links with a 2mm washer,arms parallel or very close.In the haste to change all that I forgot to place a shim on the right side and drove that way for 5 minutes,then put a proper setup.
Let's say there's a subjective unit of measurement for steering,Steerings that range 0-10.
The tires I have mounted have a theoretical capability of 10 Steerings.
Now lets break negotiating a turn in 3 parts,in,middle and out.
Link shorter than arm:
-with washers it felt like this: in=7 Steerings;middle=7 Steerings and out=3 steerings;
Notes:easy to drive and very stable under braking and steering,needed more high speed steering.
-without washers: in=7 Steerings;middle=5 Steerings and out=3 steerings;
Notes:latency after entering a turn,then hooks and turns normal.
Link as long as arm:
-with washers it felt like this: in=9 Steerings;middle=9 Steerings and out=7 steerings;
Notes:willing to turn and hugs the pipe,felt like I can make the rear step out on will.
-without washers: in=9 Steerings;middle=8 Steerings and out=5 steerings;
Notes:turns in very good but keep on pushing on its way out.Tames rear end.
Let's say there's a subjective unit of measurement for steering,Steerings that range 0-10.
The tires I have mounted have a theoretical capability of 10 Steerings.
Now lets break negotiating a turn in 3 parts,in,middle and out.
Link shorter than arm:
-with washers it felt like this: in=7 Steerings;middle=7 Steerings and out=3 steerings;
Notes:easy to drive and very stable under braking and steering,needed more high speed steering.
-without washers: in=7 Steerings;middle=5 Steerings and out=3 steerings;
Notes:latency after entering a turn,then hooks and turns normal.
Link as long as arm:
-with washers it felt like this: in=9 Steerings;middle=9 Steerings and out=7 steerings;
Notes:willing to turn and hugs the pipe,felt like I can make the rear step out on will.
-without washers: in=9 Steerings;middle=8 Steerings and out=5 steerings;
Notes:turns in very good but keep on pushing on its way out.Tames rear end.
Last edited by 30Tooth; 01-28-2013 at 05:53 AM.
#1143
Tech Adept
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 203
From: Cincinnati
I had felt my SC10 is unbalanced and had wanted to try balancing it out. I just have a few questions. Why is it every factory team setup I see is softer in the back I dont get it that is where all the weight is? You dont see a Porsche with softer springs in the back then in the front.
I am running on a slightly bumpy clay track with some pretty big jumps. I have a set of front and rear springs for my factory team V2 shocks but not sure how stiff I should go in the back.
I also see some mounts for the alloy rear hubs where u can raise or lower the camber link there how would that affect the roll center compared to the tower locations.
Thanks,
John
I am running on a slightly bumpy clay track with some pretty big jumps. I have a set of front and rear springs for my factory team V2 shocks but not sure how stiff I should go in the back.
I also see some mounts for the alloy rear hubs where u can raise or lower the camber link there how would that affect the roll center compared to the tower locations.
Thanks,
John
#1144
Tech Adept
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 203
From: Cincinnati
Another thing I dont get on the sc10 is we see a lot of people shave the rear camber link mount to get the ball stud lower which would raise the roll center and cause it to have more oversteer. Doesnt make sense why people do this.
#1145
#1146
I had felt my SC10 is unbalanced and had wanted to try balancing it out. I just have a few questions. Why is it every factory team setup I see is softer in the back I dont get it that is where all the weight is? You dont see a Porsche with softer springs in the back then in the front.
I am running on a slightly bumpy clay track with some pretty big jumps. I have a set of front and rear springs for my factory team V2 shocks but not sure how stiff I should go in the back.
I also see some mounts for the alloy rear hubs where u can raise or lower the camber link there how would that affect the roll center compared to the tower locations.
Thanks,
John
I am running on a slightly bumpy clay track with some pretty big jumps. I have a set of front and rear springs for my factory team V2 shocks but not sure how stiff I should go in the back.
I also see some mounts for the alloy rear hubs where u can raise or lower the camber link there how would that affect the roll center compared to the tower locations.
Thanks,
John
It has to do with wheel rate as opposed to spring rate. I did a quick search & found a few listed spring rates for street use. The rear rates are only very slightly higher than the front. There are 3 things to note about this.
1) The stock setup for any car (& any modified street biased setup) is designed to cause the front to push rather than the rear to slide. This is not a fast set up for racing.
2) The difference in spring rate is very small (10%-20%+/-) on the setups I found in my quick search. For an idea on difference for a front engine car, my personal miata that is setup for auto cross has 700lbs/in front & 350lbs/in rear.
3) Basic principles will translate, but actual setups & even percentages do not translate from 1/10 to 1/1 scale. For starters, compare the width vs length of a 1/10 buggy to that of a real car, not to mention the arm length.
That all said, go ahead and experiment with different setups. At absolute worst you will gain some knowledge & skill in setting up your buggy. At best you will find a new setup that is the new hot setup.
#1147
Tech Adept
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 203
From: Cincinnati
Thanks for the input. What I mean tho is if you go heavy on the spring rate where the car/truck is light that end will not grip very well. If I ran a heavy spring on the rear of my camaro it would be fish tailing all over the place caue they are so light in the back. With a sc10 the back is where all the weight is.
I use to have a Miataalso I learned a lot about suspension setups owning that car. I sold it though cause I just wanted a bigger car but it was a blast to drive.
I think I might try blue front springs and rear gray on the sc10. Then Ill adjust the camber links from there and the toe, wheels base, anti-squat.
I use to have a Miataalso I learned a lot about suspension setups owning that car. I sold it though cause I just wanted a bigger car but it was a blast to drive.
I think I might try blue front springs and rear gray on the sc10. Then Ill adjust the camber links from there and the toe, wheels base, anti-squat.
Hideeho
It has to do with wheel rate as opposed to spring rate. I did a quick search & found a few listed spring rates for street use. The rear rates are only very slightly higher than the front. There are 3 things to note about this.
1) The stock setup for any car (& any modified street biased setup) is designed to cause the front to push rather than the rear to slide. This is not a fast set up for racing.
2) The difference in spring rate is very small (10%-20%+/-) on the setups I found in my quick search. For an idea on difference for a front engine car, my personal miata that is setup for auto cross has 700lbs/in front & 350lbs/in rear.
3) Basic principles will translate, but actual setups & even percentages do not translate from 1/10 to 1/1 scale. For starters, compare the width vs length of a 1/10 buggy to that of a real car, not to mention the arm length.
That all said, go ahead and experiment with different setups. At absolute worst you will gain some knowledge & skill in setting up your buggy. At best you will find a new setup that is the new hot setup.
It has to do with wheel rate as opposed to spring rate. I did a quick search & found a few listed spring rates for street use. The rear rates are only very slightly higher than the front. There are 3 things to note about this.
1) The stock setup for any car (& any modified street biased setup) is designed to cause the front to push rather than the rear to slide. This is not a fast set up for racing.
2) The difference in spring rate is very small (10%-20%+/-) on the setups I found in my quick search. For an idea on difference for a front engine car, my personal miata that is setup for auto cross has 700lbs/in front & 350lbs/in rear.
3) Basic principles will translate, but actual setups & even percentages do not translate from 1/10 to 1/1 scale. For starters, compare the width vs length of a 1/10 buggy to that of a real car, not to mention the arm length.
That all said, go ahead and experiment with different setups. At absolute worst you will gain some knowledge & skill in setting up your buggy. At best you will find a new setup that is the new hot setup.
#1148
Thanks for the input. What I mean tho is if you go heavy on the spring rate where the car/truck is light that end will not grip very well. If I ran a heavy spring on the rear of my camaro it would be fish tailing all over the place caue they are so light in the back. With a sc10 the back is where all the weight is.
I use to have a Miataalso I learned a lot about suspension setups owning that car. I sold it though cause I just wanted a bigger car but it was a blast to drive.
I think I might try blue front springs and rear gray on the sc10. Then Ill adjust the camber links from there and the toe, wheels base, anti-squat.
I use to have a Miataalso I learned a lot about suspension setups owning that car. I sold it though cause I just wanted a bigger car but it was a blast to drive.
I think I might try blue front springs and rear gray on the sc10. Then Ill adjust the camber links from there and the toe, wheels base, anti-squat.
I'm going to be selling my miata in the next month or so for a similar reason. It's not that the car is too small (I have a daily driver), it's that it's too small for me (I'm 6'4"
). That & I got to drive an evo & an sti
.It should be interesting, if you can get it balanced with stiffer springs in the rear, to see how it handles.
I still feel I'm missing something about why the rear needs to be softer.
#1149
Tech Adept
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 203
From: Cincinnati
Hideeho
I'm going to be selling my miata in the next month or so for a similar reason. It's not that the car is too small (I have a daily driver), it's that it's too small for me (I'm 6'4"
). That & I got to drive an evo & an sti
.
It should be interesting, if you can get it balanced with stiffer springs in the rear, to see how it handles.
I still feel I'm missing something about why the rear needs to be softer.
I'm going to be selling my miata in the next month or so for a similar reason. It's not that the car is too small (I have a daily driver), it's that it's too small for me (I'm 6'4"
). That & I got to drive an evo & an sti
.It should be interesting, if you can get it balanced with stiffer springs in the rear, to see how it handles.
I still feel I'm missing something about why the rear needs to be softer.

Oh and im 6'2" the miata was a tight fit and wasnt good on the back.
#1150
Keep in mind a short rear camber rod will reduce grip on turn in, but it can also give it back on exit. The Sc10 can be loose and controllable on entry, anyone can drive that, then let it roll and hookup on exit. I don't race 2wd SCT, so I'm letting this secret out.
You can also grind the rear arms and move them forward.
#1153
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,766
From: Houston
The principles are the same on any vehicle. The SC10 does not defy physics in a way that would make it behave any differently. There is something else going on that is causing you to draw the wrong conclusion.
#1154
Shortening the link seems to work similar to 1/8th scale though. Keep in mind that the Sc10 has a ton of roll that other cars do not have. I never set my rear links to full long on the 2wd Sc10.
If you look in the back of AE's 1/10th manuals, you'll notice that thier link recommendations for 1/10th scale are opposite of the link recommendations in the Hudy 1/8th scale bible.
1/10th scale is all F'd up. It wasn't until I raced 1/8th scale that I had any luck playing with camber link locations.
#1155
Tech Adept
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 203
From: Cincinnati
Well 1/10 scale 2wd is screwed up cause of 2wd and only having rear brakes an no traction. 1/8th scale you have awd with tons of grip and braking on all 4 wheels. I would like to have an 1/8th scale but I want to be really consistent with the 2wd first. It has a lot of roll cause most people go really soft with the rear springs to get the traction.
If you lower a link too much, it's geometry will be the same as raiseing it.
Shortening the link seems to work similar to 1/8th scale though. Keep in mind that the Sc10 has a ton of roll that other cars do not have. I never set my rear links to full long on the 2wd Sc10.
If you look in the back of AE's 1/10th manuals, you'll notice that thier link recommendations for 1/10th scale are opposite of the link recommendations in the Hudy 1/8th scale bible.
1/10th scale is all F'd up. It wasn't until I raced 1/8th scale that I had any luck playing with camber link locations.
Shortening the link seems to work similar to 1/8th scale though. Keep in mind that the Sc10 has a ton of roll that other cars do not have. I never set my rear links to full long on the 2wd Sc10.
If you look in the back of AE's 1/10th manuals, you'll notice that thier link recommendations for 1/10th scale are opposite of the link recommendations in the Hudy 1/8th scale bible.
1/10th scale is all F'd up. It wasn't until I raced 1/8th scale that I had any luck playing with camber link locations.



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