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Can I complain for a minute?

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Can I complain for a minute?

Old 12-06-2022, 12:17 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie View Post
Hold on there... Nobody said we are getting ripped off. Just discussing the cost hikes and comparing different items. I believe we all agree that we have to "pay to play."

The best way to promote a product is to win races. In order to win races, you have to have the best drivers. It's no secret that there is no RC that is the fastest. It all boils down to the driver. The more drivers you have standing on the podium, with a trophy, the more attention your brand gets. This is one of the biggest downfalls for Kyosho. They had a great product, but they just didn't put money into more drivers. Xray knew this, so when they started dumping money into drivers, they because more popular. It use to be AE and Losi at the top. Now it's AE and Xray. Who has the most drivers? AE and Xray.
Yep, I call it "buying races". Another typical example is Infinity who has the most world level top drivers with them winning races they also can set the high price because of that. True followers do buy (all) their products, the low budget privateer buys the equipment he/she can afford and does look carefully to the strength of the car.
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Old 12-06-2022, 09:52 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie View Post
In 2017, Apple came out with the iPhone X. It retailed for $1000. 2022, the iPhone 14 pro is out and retails for $1000. It is by far a much better phone. Better materials, better design, better electronics, better all around. In 1990, you would pay $3000 for a 1000 watt car amp. in 2022, you pay $1000 for a 1000 watt amp that is much better. Better electronics, better materials, better everything.

The truth is, everything is manufactured a lot quicker and cheaper now. Back in the 90's, what would take hours to build will now take seconds. What took years to design will not take weeks. I remember it taking weeks to draw up blueprints for a house. Now it takes a few days. All you need to do in fill in the blanks and the computer does the rest. With RC, you just say what you are looking for and the engineers already know what to do. Just like how you adjust your car. If your car is lacking a certain handling characteristic, you know exactly what you need to do to correct it. At the same time, you know exactly now each adjustment will affect your car. Sure, there is design costs, but not as much as one may think. I've worked in the designing a manufacturing field for 6 years. I have seen what it takes.

Like I said, RC went from aluminum to plastic. Prices went up. Then they went to carbon fiber. Prices went up again. Then aluminum became a thing and prices went up again. Then came plastic chassis again and prices went up. Now we're back on aluminum and, just like in the past, prices went up. Carbon is more expensive than aluminum and aluminum is more expensive than plastic. Why are prices going up? Advertisement, by way of sponsorships.
You just don't know how engineering works. The price goes up because complexity goes up. Unlike RC racing equipment this not complicated.
Then again, you don't want understanding. You don't want an answer. You just want to whine, moan, and blame other people.
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Old 12-06-2022, 11:22 AM
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Old 12-06-2022, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
You just don't know how engineering works. The price goes up because complexity goes up. Unlike RC racing equipment this not complicated.
Then again, you don't want understanding. You don't want an answer. You just want to whine, moan, and blame other people.

DUDE!!! Who's whining? nobody is whining. You obviously are not reading what is being written in its pure form. It sounds like you are reading these posts with a negative attitude so you're just looking for us trying to start a fight. We are not fighting with you.

Like I said, I have been in the engineering and manufacturing business for years. I even a worked as a build supervisor for a plant that made electric trucks. At this job, I would work with engineering to make sure the designs were accurate and sufficient. for 6 years, worked with engineers and manufacturers in the automotive electronics industry. For ten years, I worked in a field where I had to have systems custom designed and manufactured. I am a certified machinist. I have taken numerous courses on working with many types of different materials, such as Carbon Fiber, fiberglass, Kevlar, plexiglas, ABS, wood, metals, etc... So, don't think for, a second, that I don't know anything about manufacturing and engineering.

Which car, below, has more money in materials, engineering, and manufacturing? One is a $140 RTR Wltoys and the other is a $400 Associated B6.4. Granted, one is made in China and the other is made in Taiwan, but there is not a 150% markup in costs to have something made in Taiwan over China.



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Old 12-06-2022, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie View Post
DUDE!!! Who's whining? nobody is whining. You obviously are not reading what is being written in its pure form. It sounds like you are reading these posts with a negative attitude so you're just looking for us trying to start a fight. We are not fighting with you.

So, don't think for, a second, that I don't know anything about manufacturing and engineering.

Which car, below, has more money in materials, engineering, and manufacturing? - insert terrible comparison of the worlds cheapest 4wd rtr and a current competition 2wd buggy-


Uh yeah idk what things you are looking at but you are really not comparing apples even to oranges.

As an apparent experienced person in manufacturing you're comparing THE CHEAPEST four wheel drive buggy and the most current COMPEITION TWO WHEEL drive buggy. Ignoring how many driven wheels they have (really comparing to a 4wd will just make the cost difference even wider) the quality just is not comparable. You're comparing a Yugo to a BMW factory built race car. As someone thats worked at hobby stores, and that has watched people post on this forum and facebook groups...people that buy the WL toys break them within 15 minutes. Their thin "steel" or :"aluminum" parts of the lowest grade possible break and bend super easily. Their turnbuckles bend and axles pop out and may never be found again. Garbage electronics that break and aren't compatible with what we're familiar with, all kinds of issues that more expensive stuff doesnt have.

But with the AE I can put a 7.5t mod motor in it, jump it 30ft, tumble and keep going. Bounce it off a bunch of walls and baring hitting a pole it'll take a good number of crashes to break anything. And even then its only 1 or 2 easily replaced parts and you're back running. WL toys parts? a main doesnt have them, local shops wont have them so have fun waiting for replacements.

Racing is only as expensive as you make it. Ive seen guys that never complete more than 1 clean lap in a row spend double what I do on their whole car, just to finish in the last main. I have current kits and 3 year old lipos. I'm super competitive and place well at larger races, and am improving all the time. I do have a tire sponsor and an electronics sponsor but thats fairly recent. Also I do 1/10, 1/8 is way to expensive. 1/8 needs a STACK of tires for different conditions where as I have a few sets of clay treads for some tracks and stacks of slicks. I can drive for an entire month without spending money except on entry fees. As can anyone with todays nice production slicks, as long as your track runs slicks.

I also started racing in 2000, when Nimhs were new. Cutting motors once a weak for even decent performance, having practice motors and batteries, and weak breakable parts.....it wasnt a great time. Eventually you have a spare for every part because any given wreck anything can go. And brushed motors need lots of maintenance, and tools to do that. Batteries were best on their first run and used as little as possible for best life and power.

Racing now (at least 1/10) is way better than when I started. No motor maintenance, and batteries are the opposite of back then. You can get away with 1 per car and even use it for a year or two with proper care. My current ones are nearly 3 years old. I think in February it'll be 3 years since I bought them. But I don't have much experience with 1/8. I've watched some races, helped pit at one and talked to a lot of guys that do race it. Its mostly a tire game.

But like I said before. Racing is only as expensive as you make it. If you chase what the top level guys do, you'll spending lots of money. If you figure out what your program is lacking, you'll be better off.
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Old 12-06-2022, 01:08 PM
  #51  
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If you cant tell the difference, comprehend the concept of refinement and the cost to produce them, then you're beyond reason. Its like the difference between a Chrysler 300 and a Bentley. Actually its more like a kit car vs an actual Ferrari F40.

If there is no difference, or you cant tell why there is a difference, or you think the difference costs too much money, then just buy the cheap garbage. It probably won't change where you finish in your heats.

And to answer your question directly, there is definitely several times the manufacturing costs in that B64 than in the China Joe Ripoff. The China Joe chassis and other metal parts are flat plates, cut and drilled, no machining (something you should have noticed immediately based on your claimed experience). Its A-arms are directly stolen from buggies of years or decades ago to save on tooling costs. It has coarse phillips head wood screws threaded into plastic as primary load and impact bearing fasteners. It has dog bone drive axles. It has all of the quality of a Tamiya Mini, and costs just about the same.
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Old 12-06-2022, 01:36 PM
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The price difference between some RTR brand and a real racing brand is not made by production although there are some difference in material choices.

The main difference is made by a team of sponsored drivers who try the new car and give feedback for possible changes.until they think it is right where teRTR brand just make (with some copying) a car and sell it.
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Old 12-06-2022, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexv2024 View Post
Uh yeah idk what things you are looking at but you are really not comparing apples even to oranges.

As an apparent experienced person in manufacturing you're comparing THE CHEAPEST four wheel drive buggy and the most current COMPEITION TWO WHEEL drive buggy. Ignoring how many driven wheels they have (really comparing to a 4wd will just make the cost difference even wider) the quality just is not comparable. You're comparing a Yugo to a BMW factory built race car. As someone thats worked at hobby stores, and that has watched people post on this forum and facebook groups...people that buy the WL toys break them within 15 minutes. Their thin "steel" or :"aluminum" parts of the lowest grade possible break and bend super easily. Their turnbuckles bend and axles pop out and may never be found again. Garbage electronics that break and aren't compatible with what we're familiar with, all kinds of issues that more expensive stuff doesnt have.

But with the AE I can put a 7.5t mod motor in it, jump it 30ft, tumble and keep going. Bounce it off a bunch of walls and baring hitting a pole it'll take a good number of crashes to break anything. And even then its only 1 or 2 easily replaced parts and you're back running. WL toys parts? a main doesnt have them, local shops wont have them so have fun waiting for replacements.

Racing is only as expensive as you make it. Ive seen guys that never complete more than 1 clean lap in a row spend double what I do on their whole car, just to finish in the last main. I have current kits and 3 year old lipos. I'm super competitive and place well at larger races, and am improving all the time. I do have a tire sponsor and an electronics sponsor but thats fairly recent. Also I do 1/10, 1/8 is way to expensive. 1/8 needs a STACK of tires for different conditions where as I have a few sets of clay treads for some tracks and stacks of slicks. I can drive for an entire month without spending money except on entry fees. As can anyone with todays nice production slicks, as long as your track runs slicks.

I also started racing in 2000, when Nimhs were new. Cutting motors once a weak for even decent performance, having practice motors and batteries, and weak breakable parts.....it wasnt a great time. Eventually you have a spare for every part because any given wreck anything can go. And brushed motors need lots of maintenance, and tools to do that. Batteries were best on their first run and used as little as possible for best life and power.

Racing now (at least 1/10) is way better than when I started. No motor maintenance, and batteries are the opposite of back then. You can get away with 1 per car and even use it for a year or two with proper care. My current ones are nearly 3 years old. I think in February it'll be 3 years since I bought them. But I don't have much experience with 1/8. I've watched some races, helped pit at one and talked to a lot of guys that do race it. Its mostly a tire game.

But like I said before. Racing is only as expensive as you make it. If you chase what the top level guys do, you'll spending lots of money. If you figure out what your program is lacking, you'll be better off.

Yes, I know they are totally different in a way of reliability and performance. That's not the point. The point is the overall cost of the materials and the manufacturing, alone, does not merit the 150% mark-up difference. Although the parts on the WL Toys are cheaper than the B6.4, there are a triple the number of parts, if not more, on the WL. Plus there are the electronics, although cheap, they still add to the overall cost. Have you guys ever seen how these things are produced? Have you ever seen how anything is manufactured? I have!!! An aluminum chassis can be stamped, cut, and machined in less than 2 minutes. That's from start to finish. You can purchase as 6"x13" piece of .125" anodized aluminum for $10.00. The arms are molded plastic with various additives. Everything is machined by, basically, a robot. therefore, labor costs are minimal. All plastics are molded.

Just do me one favor... Go out and price the materials that are used in a kit. Then research the machining process and molding process to shape these types of materials. Once you can honestly know these things, throw in how the engineers make. Then look at how many are sold.

The extra costs that go into a kit are to pay for factory drivers. This is all I'm saying. This is all that Roelof is saying. Nothing else! If not, then where do these company get the money to pay for the factory drivers? Why is it so hard to explain this?

Again, I totally understand the current price is what it is and to play we have to pay, which I don't care. Heck, I'm looking at getting a motorcycle that costs more than a car and it doesn't take a genius to see that there is a lot more money into a car than a motorcycle.
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Old 12-07-2022, 09:24 AM
  #54  
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Ok so people that package the kits, write instructions, manage orders, design things at the company, and all the other employees within the company dont contribute to the company any kit costs are far out weighed by a few paid drivers? Yeah sure.

You're acting awfully uninformed for someone saying they're so knowledgeable. Also material costs vs material costs for bottom of the barrel are probably at least double for quality aluminum. That rock bottom price is pretty rock bottom, I'd bet that difference for decent 7075 in AE's chassis plates is at least 2-4x plus hard anodizing and higher quality CNC machining with much better tolerances. Plus B6.1 to B6.4 tolerances and B74 to b74.2 tolerances have gotten better so instead of filing arms, reaming hinge pin holes and stretching parts has gone from needed to completely unnecessary. Its a nice quality of life improvement and makes building much easier. Well other than the new 3.5mm ballcups, those are super tight and need some work. But I'll take that trade off.

That QOL improvement takes LOTS of tweaking molds, as you need experience to know what to change and then paying for mold retooling and testing. You wont find that on WL 2345234562. Also I know for a fact its hard to keep engineers at RC companies. They start work in the RC industry then get poached by the automotive industry and getting paid so much more it doesnt make sense to stay in the RC industry. Yeah sure sponsored paid drivers contribute to the kits cost, but thats a drop in the bucket compared to other payroll, real-estate cost and everything else running a business. I mean clearly if paid pros were ruining their business model and going to kill the company you'd see them cut. Look at yokomo, their team (well the usa offroad team is what I know of) was almost entirely disbanded. But also think of the consequences. Do you want an engineer with little racing experience testing parts? How would that go? Someone that cant turn a consistent 5min at any pace other than 2x slower than a decent driver wont be able to test which bulkhead is better. Or anything. So you need someone that is a great racer to give you real feed back.

But yeah for your original point, I still think you're way off. Its not 150% different in material cost. It's probably 200-800% more. And paid drivers do contribute to cost but not enough to worry about on a 1 kit basis.

Id say theres more issues with profit being pulled out of a company by larger companies that own them. Just give the little company as much money as it needs to operate, then vacuum off the rest for yourself. Easy money!
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Old 12-07-2022, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexv2024 View Post
Ok so people that package the kits, write instructions, manage orders, design things at the company, and all the other employees within the company dont contribute to the company any kit costs are far out weighed by a few paid drivers? Yeah sure.

You're acting awfully uninformed for someone saying they're so knowledgeable. Also material costs vs material costs for bottom of the barrel are probably at least double for quality aluminum. That rock bottom price is pretty rock bottom, I'd bet that difference for decent 7075 in AE's chassis plates is at least 2-4x plus hard anodizing and higher quality CNC machining with much better tolerances. Plus B6.1 to B6.4 tolerances and B74 to b74.2 tolerances have gotten better so instead of filing arms, reaming hinge pin holes and stretching parts has gone from needed to completely unnecessary. Its a nice quality of life improvement and makes building much easier. Well other than the new 3.5mm ballcups, those are super tight and need some work. But I'll take that trade off.

That QOL improvement takes LOTS of tweaking molds, as you need experience to know what to change and then paying for mold retooling and testing. You wont find that on WL 2345234562. Also I know for a fact its hard to keep engineers at RC companies. They start work in the RC industry then get poached by the automotive industry and getting paid so much more it doesnt make sense to stay in the RC industry. Yeah sure sponsored paid drivers contribute to the kits cost, but thats a drop in the bucket compared to other payroll, real-estate cost and everything else running a business. I mean clearly if paid pros were ruining their business model and going to kill the company you'd see them cut. Look at yokomo, their team (well the usa offroad team is what I know of) was almost entirely disbanded. But also think of the consequences. Do you want an engineer with little racing experience testing parts? How would that go? Someone that cant turn a consistent 5min at any pace other than 2x slower than a decent driver wont be able to test which bulkhead is better. Or anything. So you need someone that is a great racer to give you real feed back.

But yeah for your original point, I still think you're way off. Its not 150% different in material cost. It's probably 200-800% more. And paid drivers do contribute to cost but not enough to worry about on a 1 kit basis.

Id say theres more issues with profit being pulled out of a company by larger companies that own them. Just give the little company as much money as it needs to operate, then vacuum off the rest for yourself. Easy money!

Never mind!
You guys are trying too hard to find an argument in what I'm saying rather than investigate the facts of what I'm saying.

Last edited by OffRoadJunkie; 12-07-2022 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 12-07-2022, 09:16 PM
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I've actually made, and helped others make and design and test RC products, but sure.
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Old 12-08-2022, 02:17 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Alexv2024 View Post
Ok so people that package the kits, write instructions, manage orders, design things at the company, and all the other employees within the company dont contribute to the company any kit costs are far out weighed by a few paid drivers? Yeah sure.

You're acting awfully uninformed for someone saying they're so knowledgeable. Also material costs vs material costs for bottom of the barrel are probably at least double for quality aluminum. That rock bottom price is pretty rock bottom, I'd bet that difference for decent 7075 in AE's chassis plates is at least 2-4x plus hard anodizing and higher quality CNC machining with much better tolerances. Plus B6.1 to B6.4 tolerances and B74 to b74.2 tolerances have gotten better so instead of filing arms, reaming hinge pin holes and stretching parts has gone from needed to completely unnecessary. Its a nice quality of life improvement and makes building much easier. Well other than the new 3.5mm ballcups, those are super tight and need some work. But I'll take that trade off.
OK, building RTR kits may take some manhours, on the other hand those hours do cost just a few dollars to build a whole kit, non educated asian workers do not earn much....
Yes, 7075 will cost more than 6061/6065, not only the bare product but also to machine (speed and wear of the toolbits) but for sure it will not make twice or more the price difference. Anodizing is a standard process so I do not expect huge price differences.
Tolerances on CNC????? Yes there can be some, but the worst CNC machine today will not be more than 0.1mm off, I do not think that will be any problem.
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Old 12-08-2022, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
OK, building RTR kits may take some manhours, on the other hand those hours do cost just a few dollars to build a whole kit, non educated asian workers do not earn much....
Yes, 7075 will cost more than 6061/6065, not only the bare product but also to machine (speed and wear of the toolbits) but for sure it will not make twice or more the price difference. Anodizing is a standard process so I do not expect huge price differences.
Tolerances on CNC????? Yes there can be some, but the worst CNC machine today will not be more than 0.1mm off, I do not think that will be any problem.

A month ago, I purchased a .125" x 12" x 48" piece of 7075 anodized aluminum sheet. It cost me $130 after tax. It's made in the USA also. If I were to buy it in bulk, it would go down substantially. For example, a 48" x 48" would have cost me less than $400 with tax. On top of that, if I got it directly from the manufacturer, it would go down even further. So, my estimate would be much less than $10 for 6" x 13" sheet. Also, average tolerance, of an industrial CNC milling machine, is less than .01. Machinests use the +/-.1 mm as a safety measure. And you did nail it by adding the man hours to building an RTR kit. BUT... some people just want to believe that a $400 kit cost $300 to build, compared to an RTR costing $50 to build, and the rest of the $100 goes towards overhead and profits.

Yesterday, I saw an RTR 1/8 scale nitro truggy for $180. It's China brand, so I know it's garbage, but I'm tempted to buy it to see what brand they copied and see if the parts can swap over.

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Old 12-08-2022, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie View Post
Yesterday, I saw an RTR 1/8 scale nitro truggy for $180. It's China brand, so I know it's garbage, but I'm tempted to buy it to see what brand they copied and see if the parts can swap over.
I once bought a ZD Racing ZRE-1 (1/8 eBuggy RTR) for $99 shipped from a company on a fire sale. I actually bought 2 RTR's just to have spares. The servo was very slow and was necessary to replace in order to race it. The buggy lasted 3 race days and was fairly competitive for a 3S setup. Main problem was the driveshafts and plastic were 1/10 quality and did not stand the test of time. I started experiencing a myriad of failures on the 3rd race day to where the cost of replacing worn out parts was close to $50 every 3 race days making it impractical to maintain for club racing. When the electronics failed I attempted to install proper 4S electronics and that shredded the shafts. That was the last time I bought basher grade for club racing, I always end up spending more on RTR in the long run
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Old 12-08-2022, 11:33 AM
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Some people just want to believe on faith that the cost of a kit has nothing to do with refinement, effort, precision, quality, engineering, testing, or the desire to give the customer the very best possible because that's what the customer wants and is willing to pay for, but because of the no good dirty rotten greedy bastards who got together and decided they were going to squeeze you for more and more money for your toys.

It's like arguing with a Flat Earth Truther, they don't even comprehend what's going on.

This just occurred to me, for anyone who thinks they're getting robbed by X-ray, Associated, TLR, and the rest, how many man-hours do you think goes into each racing kit? Clearly not many.

Last edited by DesertRat; 12-08-2022 at 11:44 AM.
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