4 strokes for racing
 

Hello, I would like to know if there is any news concerning a possible rule modification to allow four stroke engines to compete in ROAR events. I have emailed Rick Wilson and Dennis Samson and have not received a reply.

I really hope we will see a rule allowance for these engines, to promote product development in this untapped area of the hobby.

I believe four stroke car engines will eventually be the future of r/c racing. But manufacturers need the incentive to develop the next generation of four stroke engines. Currently a manufacturer would be crazy to go out on a limb and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop something that is currently not legal to compete at a professional level.

Come on ROAR take a step in the right direction and see the big picture. What have you got to loose.

Brian Kinney

BK

Brian - apologies for not replying to your email - work gets in the way sometimes!

This is a proposal that we can refer to the ROAR Rules Committees for their consideration, but there are some issues that would need to be resolved. Firstly, ROAR is always hesitant to make rules changes when the apparent support from racers is low, and where there is a lack of choice in the market place for the equipment covered by the rules. We would probably not approve a 4-stroke rule if there was only one manufacturer making the engines, or one "tuner" trying to market his product.

On top of this problem is the fact that the OS 4 stoke car engines are no longer available in the US, so it would be very difficult to write rules around engines that have been discontinued.

I hope this helps - I agree that in the long run the noise of 2 stroke engines might lead to a change to 4 strokers, but I think we will have to wait until this starts happening in other parts of the world in enough quantity to make the engine manufacturers take a second look at 4 stroke car engines.

In the meantime, there's nothing in the ROAR rules that would stop a track or a club legalizing 4 stroke engines for their local races, so perhaps that's the way to start - try to get a local track to allow the use of 4 strokes and see what interest this generates from the other racers.

4 strokes...
 

Gascarnut,
First, let me verify with you that I personally have confirmed with John Stokes, product manager at Hobbico that they will infact be importing the OS FS-26S-C Ver II to the states this year. And I cannot find any rule in the rulebook that states there needs to be multiple manufacturers for an engine or motor to be approved for racing. Take brushless motors for instance. Novak is the only manufacturer of 1/10 size sensor type brushless motors, yet ROAR made a special rule just to allow them to compete in 2005.

I am concidering entering into a development project with a large engine manufacturer to create and produce a competitive four stroke engine. However, this effort may prove to be futile, if these type of engines are not allowed to race at a competitive level.

It seems that ROAR is very closed minded to any change in our sport. If you did change the rules for 1/10 scale racing and allowed four stroke engines to compete, and no one showed up to race with them, who would that hurt? What it would do though, is open the door to many manufacturers, and give an incentive to start the development process, and have an arena to test and prove their products.

I have been involved in AMA professional motocross racing for the past nine years, at a factory level.(I currently work for American Honda Factory Motocross Team) And during this time I have seen the AMA pro-racing group, allow four stroke motorcycles to compete with the two stroke motorcycles. In the begining the four stroke motorcycles were a ways off the performance of the two strokes. But in the following years, We have seen the four stroke motorcycles advance in technology to the point where they can compete equally with the two strokes. This has been a huge improvement to four stroke motorcycles everywhere, not just on the track, but all have benifited from these advancements.

So why wait to see what happens in other parts of the world?

Lets be leaders instead of followers!

Still worst case scenerio will be no one shows up to race one. I really don't think anyone would even notice.

I think the real reason behind ROAR's reluctance to change is they don't want to have to explain to the two stroke racers why they got beat by a four stroke.

Thanks for your time and concideration,

Brian Kinney

BK

mxwrench,

First off - the ROAR 2005 rule book is not out yet, so it is premature to say anything about the rules for brushless motors. However, Novak might have been the first to develop a partiucular brushless technology, but they are not the only ones, and the ROAR Executive Committee has taken into account the the fact that there is a signed agreement from a number of manufacturers to follow the basic rules that were proposed by Novak. By the time brushless motors are legal for ROAR competition there will be more than one system available to racers. A point for you to consider is this: Novak took a risk in developing their brushless system at their own cost and then came to the ROAR Executive Committee with a signed agreement from other manufacturers. Perhaps you should consider doing the same and I'm sure you will get the same treatment from the ROAR Executive Committee, which would probably be the establishment of provisional rules, the running of demonstration classes at ROAR events and the eventual incorporation into the rules if there is enough support.

Second off - there does not have to be a rule in the rule book about single-manufacturer classes. It is an established ROAR policy that is kept in mind by the ROAR Executive Committee and by the ROAR Rules Committees.

Third off - what happens in full size motorcycles has little to no impact on what happens in RC racing. RC racers do not have the budgets of Motocross teams, nor do the RC manufacturers have the budgets of the big motorcycle companies.

Lastly, your opinion of "ROAR's real reason" is just that - your opinion. It's not a fact, or a "real reason" at all. ROAR's concern is always to ensure that rules are fair, that the playing field is level, and that the racing stays fun. If ROAR were to introduce a rule that benefited one single "tuner" of unobtainable engines that (possibly) could obsolete everything being run in the class at the time, we would be failing in our basic principles of keeping racing fun and fair. Once one type of technology beats another type of technology in a fair race, ROAR has no part in having to explain that to anyone.

Also, most of the products produced by manufacturers for radio control cars will never even see the track. I've heard that racers only make up about 5% of the Radio control car market so it wouldn't make much sense to produce something as large an undertaking as a four stroke engine and aim it at the racing market. I would aim it a the big-block monster truck market for development and then once the technology gets to where it is a viable option for the racer, then see if there is interest in a class or ammendment to the rules. My .02

4 strokes...
 

Gascanut,

First, let me say, I do see your point regarding one technology causing another to be obsolete. However I really don't think that would be the case in this situation, but I guess time will tell.

Second, These engines will be available in the states. OS had them at the Chicago trade show on display, and has confirmed they would in fact be importing them to the states.

Third, this rule wouldn't only benefit me as a "tuner"(actually developer/engineer) but everyone that has the desire to race with different engine technology, in all classes.

I respect your decision however, and will continue my quest for growth in four stroke engine technology. And when the time comes I will jump thru the appropriate hoops presented to me to hopefully bring this new technology to the r/c masses.

BK

Re: 4 strokes...
 

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Stinky,
He said 'sensor based'. The Reedy/lrp will be a sensorless design. The esc will also control brushed motors!
4 strokes---YES. I feel that ROAR spends to much time thinking about how rules affect manufacturers as opposed to racers. This organization should think about racers first. Also, there are other manufacturers of 4 strokes. If we start racing them, perhaps they will make the necessary adjustments for use with surface vehicles.

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Stinky,
I stand corrected! I did not look close enough at my e-mail from Horizon. It will operate brushed motors too! Down to 5.5 turns! should be cool.

But, back to point...YES to 4-strokes! Put them in with an appropriate displacement equation.

What are the advatages to using a four stroke over a 2 stroke ?

Like emmission`s ( flumes) ?

Is there a noise issue ?


Why would I consider using a Four stroke ?


I would support 4 stroke if they had better emmisions compared to the 2 stroke.

I race Nitro indoor`s..

The two key problems are the nitro-methane & noise.....

Both bad....:tire: >>>Thanks

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What are the advatages to using a four stroke over a 2 stroke ?

Like emmission`s ( flumes) ?

are they more quiet ?

otherwise...
Why would I consider using a Four stroke ?

just wondering....