Originally Posted by Metalsoft (Post 16061160)

It's not there for implementation, it is there as a starting point.

Originally Posted by DirkW (Post 16060355)

Sorry, no conspiracy to be found here :lol:. I have zero connections with them, I'm not even a very happy customer. But I can look beyond just my own horizons and think about more than just "me, me, me!" Mylaps are a company and for them (like any other company) this is a business, not a hobby - and they are in it to make money (they have employees that need to eat, pay rent, feed their families, etc.). That's how our western capitalist system works - for good and for bad. It's not exactly their fault that they don't have competition on the market, is it? Plus, I'm not a hypocrite, so when it pisses me off (and it does!) when e.g. Chinese companies produce cheap (and mostly crappy) blatant copies of what western companies have invented and designed, regardless of copyrights and patents, I cannot turn around and say "Oh but it's different with Mylaps - there I support such a thing, because it makes my otherwise very expensive hobby slightly cheaper!" Sorry, no can do. Do I wish their products were cheaper? Of course! But I cannot dictate it to them.

And again, even at current prices, these transponders are IMHO only a rather minor cost compared to the rest of the equipment you need to race (and to keep racing!) that I don't see what the big problem is. Please think honestly about what you are ready and willing to pay for other electronics, the stock class motor of the month, all the tires, the bodies (depending on class)... and how much of these perish so quickly or can only be used in one class or one type of vehicle, while the single transponder you actually need is universal and will usually outlive them all. Yes, we all wish this hobby was cheaper, but that goes for every single component and all companies, not just Mylaps and their transponders!

Yes, of course competition is a good thing. So let other companies do their own complete products (without patent or copyright infringement) and then it'll be a fair competition. Because when the tech is apparently so simple, old and proven, how come no other company has ever done a serious effort to produce such a (complete!) system of their own (i.e. incl. a decoder!) in all these years? Should be a gold mine, right? With all those unhappy people that want to spend less money... There should be enough engineers out there that could do it, too - it's only tech, not magic. But for some reason, all that has happened so far, was to rip off the cheap and simple part, the transponders. Apparently it's much harder to build a decoder, right? Or is it too expensive to do? For whatever reason, to my knowledge nobody else has successfully built and properly marketed a complete working decoder / timing system so far. If MRT really is finally working on a decoder as well, that's great news! And it's about time someone does, after all these years, no, decades - it's almost 2024 now. Problem is, it might be too late by now. Almost all current race tracks have a very expensive Mylaps system and are not likely to buy a new one, unless they'd need to replace a defective unit, or the new system was much better (no idea what improvement that might be - after all, the Mylaps system does a good job) - but would a better system be necessarily cheaper?

Originally Posted by Raman (Post 16061381)

I don’t think the issue here is stealing as the Chinese do, it’s more about monopoly, competition and compatibility.

Imagine if the only radio we could use was Sanwa.. that they owned the spreadspectrum signal and only sanwa receivers and servos could be used. The price for their systems will be very high and they would have no incentive to perhaps provide an entry level model.

This essentially is my laps. They have a closed system and MRT reverse engineered a device to work with it, and became the only competition. Mylaps updated their system to shut them out so there’s no competition. They also know very well. It’s not feasible for a track to have multiple timing systems so they have a monopoly on the market, and can command $100+ for a device that cost pennies to make.

I too heard MRT is making their own, unless it accepts my laps RC4 transponder's, it will be tough for it to get off the ground

Originally Posted by simple (Post 16061394)

Maybe some are forgetting the overall cost of the complete integrated system of software, loop, decoder, etc. How much is that?

Originally Posted by revo_race (Post 16061397)

It’s great you think complaining about the technology we have available to us is ignorant. I’m pretty sure that’s not at all the objective of this entire thread. Did you read, or did you really just HAVE to share your unrelated opinion and you chose this particular thread at random to accomplish your mission?

Originally Posted by revo_race (Post 16061397)

It’s great you think complaining about the technology we have available to us is ignorant. I’m pretty sure that’s not at all the objective of this entire thread. Did you read, or did you really just HAVE to share your unrelated opinion and you chose this particular thread at random to accomplish your mission?

Originally Posted by simple (Post 16061394)

I find it slightly ironic that some complain about a single$100 piece of equipment, that is effectively the “ticket” to participate in racing their $300 to $900 rc car.
Technically, it’s the cost of participation in organized racing. And you only need to pay it once per car. Average out per use, and the cost becomes insignificant.
Maybe some are forgetting the overall cost of the complete integrated system of software, loop, decoder, etc. How much is that?
That cost is almost entirely absorbed by the club or track facility. Where are the complaints about that?
I think some are taking for granted a system that works near flawlessly, keeps data accurately, times precisely, and helps organize so many people at so many events.
From that perspective, I’m thankful I only have to pay $100 to have the privilege of this technology and reliability.
I Use to race at a track where an employee had to hit number keys as cars wizzed by. Then a track where you were a numbskull if you forgot to put the transponder, the size of a micro servo, back in it charging dock after your heat. When personal transponders came out, it was glorious. I think complaining about what we have now is ignorant of how far it’s come and how good we have it.

Originally Posted by Raman (Post 16061437)

The cost associated with the facility, the timing system its utilities, et cetera are not directly born by the end-user. These fixed up start costs are partially covered by the fee that is charged for participating for that day for the class and additional classes..

I run a retail store, similarly to have such a business. You need a retail point of sale system, security cameras, security guards, cleaning crews. I don’t regularly have discussions with my patrons about what the cost of the systems that help me run this shop this nor, do I expect them to know what it is.

Back to transponders, I have actually paid the price to compete and paid the price of convenience by having 6 transponders in total for myself and my son. That’s a decision I made. I don’t expect it to be convenient for someone else or everybody else be able to afford it.

I still think the individual price for the transponders is too high. Overtime, the cost of many devices come down yet these have remained at the same level simply because there isn’t competition. Lets use servos as an example, metal gear servos were the new thing then came coreless, digital, brushless, high voltage, s-bus overtime. The older models prices dropped. The new versions of mylaps transponders are not offering any new features. They supplanted the older versions and made them obsolete to keep MRT out. It remains a simple, counting system. As a lack of competition, the price remains the same.

Originally Posted by simple (Post 16061422)

The objective of this thread, as I have understood from the start, is to offer a reasonably priced alternative to mYlaps transponders.
As this is a forum for sharing opinions;
I am of the opinion that the current mYlaps, and MRT products are already reasonably priced.
Yes, postulating that someone can simply pop one open and figure it out, or make a snap assessment that it is a rip off, is "lacking knowledge or awareness in general" as to what is actually involved.

Originally Posted by rccartips (Post 16061465)

I'm an EE. Our reverse engineering solution was to buy the I-laps system. We mount the transponder low on the chassis with no issues. And one of our guy makes his own PT for the I-laps and sells at half price :)

Originally Posted by DirkW (Post 16060399)

gigaplex But what some people obviously dream about is a company that will sell a system of roughly the same quality, where transponders only cost around $20-$25 instead of around a hundred and probably a decoder for a couple hundred instead of several thousand dollars. And I believe such a system would easily sell, even when not directly compatible with RC4, as the cost would be very little for new tracks and/or racers, and also no hindrance for existing racers - what is $25 more to spend in this money-pit of a hobby? Even established tracks might be interested at that price (if the system managed to become popular) and it might be possible to run in parallel with the Mylaps decoder on the same time keeping software (so transponders and decoders stay independent from each other, and only come together on the computer). The question is, would such low prices really work for a company to develop, produce and long-time support such products? Even in large numbers if it proves successful? I kinda doubt it. But it is what Mylaps has successfully done for a very long time, with their prices.

Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 16061445)

The transponders themselves are relatively simple. But the entire ecosystem is more complex. MyLaps still needs to support the decoders. They're a one time low volume purchase with no ongoing subscription costs. If MyLaps can't make money off the transponders then the whole system goes bankrupt.

Servos directly affect performance, transponders do not. There's an inventive for competition when the performance matters.

Originally Posted by Mig89 (Post 16061620)

trust me, no company is going to give you deal on a product you can make money with and that company only gets that one time payment. remember, most electronics you're paying for the costs to develop the software not necessarily hardware itself. Just like any kit, the pricing is meant to cover manufacturing but also R&D work that was involved. Most of these products take yrs of development and investment before you can think of making any monies. Regardless, in this hobby you get what you pay for. You can buy knocks off that a particular manufacture has no idea what they're manufacture.

Originally Posted by LowDrag (Post 16060214)

We use the Orange Lap Rc transponders at our track and they’re only $25 a pop. Which seems realistic given what they are and how many you could get made on a panel. Mylaps just pots the same thing in a 2cent plastic case and marks it up $100. Given how much we want more people to enter the hobby, shouldn’t the RC community be pushing for the Orange Lap version instead?

Originally Posted by Lonestar (Post 16060676)

Mylaps and Bervoets (yep, the dutch guy who created Serpent with Ron Ton, the Ber in Berton...) deserve their success. Their lapcounting system was breakthrough. I have 4 AMB including one from the very first generation, and once you figure out how to change the leads especially on the transponder side, they last forever

I will admit I also have 2 mrt clones - the reason I bought them is because of absence of retro compatibility of the originals early transponders with the new loops. The newer loops don't see the old transponders... And that p!ssed me off. If I can't trust the original brand, then why would I bother... And the clubs are a set or making it a point to not upgrade the firmware....

​​​​​​I'm grateful to AMB/mylaps, still I think they started acting a bit too greedy at some point.

In a non-niche RC world, anti-trust authorities would step in btw.

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 16061638)

Also in 4 pages of talk in this topic I did never see someone mentioning the whole system behind it. You can create a free account at Speedhyves where every lap driven on a track with an online decoder is registered. The servers, maintenance and software development has also to be payed. But in the US tracks work with LiveRC where I believe you need to pay for a subscription?

Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 16061445)

The transponders themselves are relatively simple. But the entire ecosystem is more complex. MyLaps still needs to support the decoders. They're a one time low volume purchase with no ongoing subscription costs. If MyLaps can't make money off the transponders then the whole system goes bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Lukyduckie (Post 16061662)

I think the main and possibly the only reason why they have a monopoly and also why they are the go to for RC is because they have an already successful sustainable business supply timing equipment across all kinds of motorsport. I don't believe there is a big enough market within all motorsport including rc (which is a laughably small part) to run a second company that makes enough money and is not a passion project.

If Mercedes or Ferrari or Honda etc were to create an RC car it would not be the cheapest thing out there.

Lets be thankful that we have a reliable and almost fully adopted technology that allows us to travel all over the world to world class tracks or basement tracks or back of the barn tracks and compete with full timing and not a hand counter and a piece of paper with equipment we bring with us. Imagine if every track had a different system, What a nightmare that would be....

Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 16061658)

Pretty sure I touched on that:

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 16061765)

I could be wrong but you never mentioned the server side where all laps are registered and even race results if AMB race software was used.

Originally Posted by TimF (Post 16062420)

From a cost to racer point of view (this has been briefly covered earlier in the thread) 10 key ‘hand counting’ with numbers clearly affixed to the car is the way to go.

this is not to difficult to do but generally requires a second person in race control to count the laps. When i race directed back in the late 90’s we ran this way. The draw back is that laps could get missed if people got distracted.

for club racing the .5 second that can be missed with hand counting does not matter, larger events need the accuracy of the transponder loop.

the ease (as stated earlier) of the transponders counting laps is very nice for the race director.

to the original title of ‘is there a transponder hack’ nope (for all the reasons stated above.

i have heard from people i know who run/bike that there are ‘passive systems’ that are much cheaper for the individual (given out in the event bibs) but the counters are exponentially more expensive.

Originally Posted by simple (Post 16061394)

I find it slightly ironic that some complain about a single$100 piece of equipment, that is effectively the “ticket” to participate in racing their $300 to $900 rc car.
Technically, it’s the cost of participation in organized racing. And you only need to pay it once per car. Average out per use, and the cost becomes insignificant.
Maybe some are forgetting the overall cost of the complete integrated system of software, loop, decoder, etc. How much is that?
That cost is almost entirely absorbed by the club or track facility. Where are the complaints about that?
I think some are taking for granted a system that works near flawlessly, keeps data accurately, times precisely, and helps organize so many people at so many events.
From that perspective, I’m thankful I only have to pay $100 to have the privilege of this technology and reliability.
I Use to race at a track where an employee had to hit number keys as cars wizzed by. Then a track where you were a numbskull if you forgot to put the transponder, the size of a micro servo, back in it charging dock after your heat. When personal transponders came out, it was glorious. I think complaining about what we have now is ignorant of how far it’s come and how good we have it.

Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 16061792)

I mentioned the support of the whole system. Live lap timing is but one of the features.

Originally Posted by skife (Post 16086286)

The support of the hardware where they only release updates that will make their older transponders obsolete?

Originally Posted by skife (Post 16086286)

The support of the hardware where they only release updates that will make their older transponders obsolete?

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 16086386)

As a designer of the whole system they have the right to do that to rule out others copying transponders in a bad way. It is not nice but the step was already set over a decade ago with a transponder exchange program which still exists. Somehow people can complain about this one in more than a decade action but easilly buy new cars, radio equipment, motors and tires every year.

Originally Posted by revo_race (Post 16086843)

Aside from the radio every single item you mentioned is a wear and tear item, to which some would even argue the sensors do wear out. I actually don’t see many racers buying radios every year but even if they did they don’t have to buy a new radio for every car they own.

Originally Posted by revo_race (Post 16086843)

Aside from the radio every single item you mentioned is a wear and tear item, to which some would even argue the sensors do wear out. I actually don’t see many racers buying radios every year but even if they did they don’t have to buy a new radio for every car they own.

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 16086386)

As a designer of the whole system they have the right to do that to rule out others copying transponders in a bad way. It is not nice but the step was already set over a decade ago with a transponder exchange program which still exists. Somehow people can complain about this one in more than a decade action but easilly buy new cars, radio equipment, motors and tires every year.

Originally Posted by skife (Post 16086888)

I've got a couple ideas to solve the expensive transponder issue.


1. Build an open source decoder that will read mylaps transponders as well as open source transponders. Hardware cost could be brought down significantly.

2. Live time supports running multiple loops, will it support running 2 different decoders doing this? Could you run mylaps and trackmate at the same time?

3. Custom firmware for the mylaps decoders to open them back up to detect older transponders.

​​

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 16086962)

For 3 there is no custom firmware needed, you only need V4.4 It is not possible to downgrade so you need to extract the actual firmware and upload it directly into the processor.

Originally Posted by skife (Post 16086888)

2. Live time supports running multiple loops, will it support running 2 different decoders doing this? Could you run mylaps and trackmate at the same time?

​​

Originally Posted by Tricon (Post 16086963)

Thats....not how that works at all. Processor's inherently do not have any storage. Maybe some volatile cache, but thats moot. There's a boot loader that looks for the local image of the firmware on the ROM. If the bootloader or ROM image fail a checksum check, then it won't boot. The boot loader has a method for overwriting the current ROM, but it will check and make sure its incrementing the version number only. Your only hope would be to hex edit the old firmware and try to pass it off as an upgrade, but they have a few other checks they do to make this pretty much impossible. They are locked down pretty tight, understandably so.