28LikesInfo on new Sanwa
10-07-2022, 09:41 AM
#16
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (46)
Originally Posted by Silverbullet555
With $100 receivers. Ouch
Makes me wonder if I should buy a mt-44 for my kid now and hold it for later for him. He'll need an upgrade at somepoint. Then again, I have a gaggle of FH5 receivers that I could put him in the future.
Makes me wonder if I should buy a mt-44 for my kid now and hold it for later for him. He'll need an upgrade at somepoint. Then again, I have a gaggle of FH5 receivers that I could put him in the future.
Glad to see Sanwa back in the entry-level race radio game. I suspect this will be a $249 radio and you'll be able to use a coupon to get it around $229.
10-07-2022, 02:39 PM
#17
Tech Adept
The receiver cost argument is one i just shake my head at.
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
Like, i see people buying a 10PX, and then saying "I bought a Futaba, because the receivers are cheaper." Like, wait...you bought an $800 radio, so you can use a $50 receiver??? A receiver that does NONE of the special highspeed modes your fancy transmitter is designed for??? What?!
And if you DO want to take advantage of the higher end response modes of the 10PX...that requires a special Futaba Receiver to support it, and those receivers are OVER the price of an equivalent Sanwa. Usually $125-110.
So, overall, for what you are getting, are the receivers really THAT much more expensive?
From my perspective, you can always buy an off brand receiver to use with a Sanwa radio if you want a cheap alternative. But even then, unlike the price tier lockout that Futaba puts on their high speed high response modes, at least i can buy a cheaper radio, like the MT-S/MT-5/MT-R, and still get the same benefits on performance as a full tilt M17, but without the granularity of some of the more advanced tuning and adjustment options that a higher end MT-44/MT-5, or M17 would likely offer you.
And finally, my kids arent to a level where they need anything super special yet. They do just fine with a DX5, and the $25 2 channel Spektrum receivers. Its the perfect price to performance sweet spot. It works great, its reliable, and i dont worry about it if it breaks. And as they acquire more Horizon RTR stuff, they already have solid radios to bind and rip with.
Its just an argument i dont jive with. Like complaining about the price of economy tires for your Ferrari or Porsche. Maybe you should just buy a Camry instead?
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
Like, i see people buying a 10PX, and then saying "I bought a Futaba, because the receivers are cheaper." Like, wait...you bought an $800 radio, so you can use a $50 receiver??? A receiver that does NONE of the special highspeed modes your fancy transmitter is designed for??? What?!
And if you DO want to take advantage of the higher end response modes of the 10PX...that requires a special Futaba Receiver to support it, and those receivers are OVER the price of an equivalent Sanwa. Usually $125-110.
So, overall, for what you are getting, are the receivers really THAT much more expensive?
From my perspective, you can always buy an off brand receiver to use with a Sanwa radio if you want a cheap alternative. But even then, unlike the price tier lockout that Futaba puts on their high speed high response modes, at least i can buy a cheaper radio, like the MT-S/MT-5/MT-R, and still get the same benefits on performance as a full tilt M17, but without the granularity of some of the more advanced tuning and adjustment options that a higher end MT-44/MT-5, or M17 would likely offer you.
And finally, my kids arent to a level where they need anything super special yet. They do just fine with a DX5, and the $25 2 channel Spektrum receivers. Its the perfect price to performance sweet spot. It works great, its reliable, and i dont worry about it if it breaks. And as they acquire more Horizon RTR stuff, they already have solid radios to bind and rip with.
Its just an argument i dont jive with. Like complaining about the price of economy tires for your Ferrari or Porsche. Maybe you should just buy a Camry instead?
10-07-2022, 05:29 PM
#18
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
The receiver cost argument is one i just shake my head at.
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
Like, i see people buying a 10PX, and then saying "I bought a Futaba, because the receivers are cheaper." Like, wait...you bought an $800 radio, so you can use a $50 receiver??? A receiver that does NONE of the special highspeed modes your fancy transmitter is designed for??? What?!
And if you DO want to take advantage of the higher end response modes of the 10PX...that requires a special Futaba Receiver to support it, and those receivers are OVER the price of an equivalent Sanwa. Usually $125-110.
So, overall, for what you are getting, are the receivers really THAT much more expensive?
From my perspective, you can always buy an off brand receiver to use with a Sanwa radio if you want a cheap alternative. But even then, unlike the price tier lockout that Futaba puts on their high speed high response modes, at least i can buy a cheaper radio, like the MT-S/MT-5/MT-R, and still get the same benefits on performance as a full tilt M17, but without the granularity of some of the more advanced tuning and adjustment options that a higher end MT-44/MT-5, or M17 would likely offer you.
And finally, my kids arent to a level where they need anything super special yet. They do just fine with a DX5, and the $25 2 channel Spektrum receivers. Its the perfect price to performance sweet spot. It works great, its reliable, and i dont worry about it if it breaks. And as they acquire more Horizon RTR stuff, they already have solid radios to bind and rip with.
Its just an argument i dont jive with. Like complaining about the price of economy tires for your Ferrari or Porsche. Maybe you should just buy a Camry instead?
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
Like, i see people buying a 10PX, and then saying "I bought a Futaba, because the receivers are cheaper." Like, wait...you bought an $800 radio, so you can use a $50 receiver??? A receiver that does NONE of the special highspeed modes your fancy transmitter is designed for??? What?!
And if you DO want to take advantage of the higher end response modes of the 10PX...that requires a special Futaba Receiver to support it, and those receivers are OVER the price of an equivalent Sanwa. Usually $125-110.
So, overall, for what you are getting, are the receivers really THAT much more expensive?
From my perspective, you can always buy an off brand receiver to use with a Sanwa radio if you want a cheap alternative. But even then, unlike the price tier lockout that Futaba puts on their high speed high response modes, at least i can buy a cheaper radio, like the MT-S/MT-5/MT-R, and still get the same benefits on performance as a full tilt M17, but without the granularity of some of the more advanced tuning and adjustment options that a higher end MT-44/MT-5, or M17 would likely offer you.
And finally, my kids arent to a level where they need anything super special yet. They do just fine with a DX5, and the $25 2 channel Spektrum receivers. Its the perfect price to performance sweet spot. It works great, its reliable, and i dont worry about it if it breaks. And as they acquire more Horizon RTR stuff, they already have solid radios to bind and rip with.
Its just an argument i dont jive with. Like complaining about the price of economy tires for your Ferrari or Porsche. Maybe you should just buy a Camry instead?
And no you cannot buy the cheap off brand receivers when using the MT-5 or MT-R. That's why Sanwa is making their new radios FH5 only.
Last edited by gigaplex; 10-12-2022 at 04:24 PM.
10-07-2022, 11:25 PM
#19
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by gigaplex
Except that you DO get fast servo modes with the cheaper Futaba TFHSS receivers. And there's more than one reason to buy Sanwa. I've got over a dozen cars. Some FH5 receivers, some FH4. FH4 receivers also support fast servo response modes. I spend big bucks on one radio (M17) shared between lots of cars for the improved ergonomics and feel of quality, but can still use it economically with all my cars because it's easy to get cheap FH4 receivers.
And no you cannot buy the cheap off brand receivers when using the MT-5 or MT-R. That's why Sanwa is making their new radios FH5 only.
And no you cannot buy the cheap off brand receivers when using the MT-5 or MT-R. That's why Sanwa is making their new radios FH5 only.
The "SR" mode on Futaba is only available on the R33, and R40 receivers. And as far as I am aware, that mode will not enable on the radio unless it detects one of those receivers connected to it.
But i do understand the issue with Sanwa going FH-5 completely. And in many ways, i cant say i blame them. The market has become flooded with FH-4 clone receivers, and being distributed by more mainstream companies with a wider distribution. It makes sense to close off their ecosystem from a financial shareholder standpoint. As a consumer i am bummed, but at least i can make sense of it.
My hope is that the MT-R doesnt have the same SSR/SUR bug, same as the older MT-S it is based off of had, where SSR/SUR had noticeable input lag to it, making it slower than SHR mode.
10-08-2022, 12:05 AM
#20
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
I believe what you are referring to as a "fast servo mode" is similar to what Sanwa calls calls "SHR" which is basically "Digital Servo Mode". Yes it is a faster mode than "normal", but it is still not the high refresh direct mode like SSR/SXR.
The "SR" mode on Futaba is only available on the R33, and R40 receivers. And as far as I am aware, that mode will not enable on the radio unless it detects one of those receivers connected to it.
The "SR" mode on Futaba is only available on the R33, and R40 receivers. And as far as I am aware, that mode will not enable on the radio unless it detects one of those receivers connected to it.
10-08-2022, 02:42 AM
#21
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
I believe what you are referring to as a "fast servo mode" is similar to what Sanwa calls calls "SHR" which is basically "Digital Servo Mode". Yes it is a faster mode than "normal", but it is still not the high refresh direct mode like SSR/SXR.
The "SR" mode on Futaba is only available on the R33, and R40 receivers. And as far as I am aware, that mode will not enable on the radio unless it detects one of those receivers connected to it.
But i do understand the issue with Sanwa going FH-5 completely. And in many ways, i cant say i blame them. The market has become flooded with FH-4 clone receivers, and being distributed by more mainstream companies with a wider distribution. It makes sense to close off their ecosystem from a financial shareholder standpoint. As a consumer i am bummed, but at least i can make sense of it.
My hope is that the MT-R doesnt have the same SSR/SUR bug, same as the older MT-S it is based off of had, where SSR/SUR had noticeable input lag to it, making it slower than SHR mode.
The "SR" mode on Futaba is only available on the R33, and R40 receivers. And as far as I am aware, that mode will not enable on the radio unless it detects one of those receivers connected to it.
But i do understand the issue with Sanwa going FH-5 completely. And in many ways, i cant say i blame them. The market has become flooded with FH-4 clone receivers, and being distributed by more mainstream companies with a wider distribution. It makes sense to close off their ecosystem from a financial shareholder standpoint. As a consumer i am bummed, but at least i can make sense of it.
My hope is that the MT-R doesnt have the same SSR/SUR bug, same as the older MT-S it is based off of had, where SSR/SUR had noticeable input lag to it, making it slower than SHR mode.
10-08-2022, 08:32 AM
#22
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by Roelof
But the digital mode on the T-FHSS mode is max out to the 333Hz while I believe this same kind on the Sanwa has a frequency of about 100Hz.
This is similar to the argument that happens in PC Gaming about FPS being essential. And while, yes, good frame rate is important, its not the whole picture. Thankfully, back in the mid-2000, technologies were invented that started to measure total input delay, and rendering delay between the rasterizer and the video frame buffer. Where in some cases it was measuring into the dozens of miliseconds, can making the games feel laggy and sluggish. Now days there are even technologies to omit some rendering processes, to further reduce the delay, at the sake of image quality.
So yes, you can have more resolution with the Futaba, but if the processing of the signal is taking additional miliseconds on either end, then the benefit is limited. And without SR mode, there is going to be additional delay in how the signal is processed.
I also believe that Futaba and Sanwa measure their refresh rates differently. Where Sanwa measures full peak to peak, but Futaba measures each rise and fall. Sadly, im not an electrical engineer, and dont have a high dollar Rigol oscilloscope, and the appropriate RF equipment to factually test that sort of thing independently verify a damn thing.
10-11-2022, 08:36 AM
#24
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
The receiver cost argument is one i just shake my head at.
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
To me the whole point of getting a Sanwa radio is for SSR/SXR performance modes on high quality, high speed, high response servos.
Running my M17 with decent .06-.08s servos in SHR mode, I can't tell any difference in response between this radio system and my old NB4. If it wasn't for the Feeling setting on the M17, I'd probably go back to the land of $35 receivers and a decent UI
But, I am just a mid-pack advanced level racer, so I have other priorities when on track than ultimate servo response.
10-11-2022, 01:27 PM
#25
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by Cromulent
Are those servos that prevalent? The only ones for 1/10 off-road I found that had the speed, torque and size/weight specs I needed were Pro-Performance, and I couldn't get them to not shake in 2 different buggies.
Running my M17 with decent .06-.08s servos in SHR mode, I can't tell any difference in response between this radio system and my old NB4. If it wasn't for the Feeling setting on the M17, I'd probably go back to the land of $35 receivers and a decent UI But, I am just a mid-pack advanced level racer, so I have other priorities when on track than ultimate servo response.
Running my M17 with decent .06-.08s servos in SHR mode, I can't tell any difference in response between this radio system and my old NB4. If it wasn't for the Feeling setting on the M17, I'd probably go back to the land of $35 receivers and a decent UI
But, I am just a mid-pack advanced level racer, so I have other priorities when on track than ultimate servo response.I personally use the ProPerformance servos, and the off center shake only happens if you dont have enough voltage goign through the BEC. Crank up the BEC, throw a larger cap onto the ESC, and hardwire your fans to the ESC power leads so they arent drawing down off the receiver bus power, and it will cut all of the on center jitter out of the Servo. To be fair, I have experienced the same thing on Futaba servos as well.
As for the benefits of SSR/SXR, the primary change is the way in which the signal and the power are delivered to the servo. And the immediacy with which the servo begins to react to the torque demand.
The best blind-ish test i have found, it to make two profiles on your radio. One with SXR, and one without. The Copy Profile feature is great for this. Then practice turn 1 entry after the straight. In most cases this is a "huck it in and pray" type of corner. Run the car without SXR for a pack. So you can get used to how the car turns in to turn one, and build up some muscle memory.
Then get a fresh pack, go back out for session 2 with SXR enabled. And take that same bonzai dive in to turn one. I can all but guarantee, you will be turning in too early, and will have to readjust your line mid corner to avoid the pipe. Because the initial turn in on the servo will be much sharper, and have more immediacy to it. From a purely static test, the total time delay from input to action may be the same in total delay, but the reaction of the servo will be much more linier with SXR, as opposed to "winding up" to speed like the standard digital servo mode. You can even hear a difference in the servo movement from one mode to the other.
If you want to make it a more truly blind test, have a buddy swap between the profiles for you, so you dont know which is which, and test it out. There is a difference there to be felt, more than you may think there is in general testing.
Interesting experiment worth playing with, just for giggles.
10-11-2022, 03:03 PM
#26
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
Reef's, AGF, Rhino, and one other i cant think of, all have servos that are now compatible with SSR/SXR, and Futaba SR. Along with the aforementioned ProPerformance, and obviously the OEM First Party, Sanwa and Futaba Servos.
I personally use the ProPerformance servos, and the off center shake only happens if you dont have enough voltage goign through the BEC. Crank up the BEC, throw a larger cap onto the ESC, and hardwire your fans to the ESC power leads so they arent drawing down off the receiver bus power, and it will cut all of the on center jitter out of the Servo. To be fair, I have experienced the same thing on Futaba servos as well.
As for the benefits of SSR/SXR, the primary change is the way in which the signal and the power are delivered to the servo. And the immediacy with which the servo begins to react to the torque demand.
The best blind-ish test i have found, it to make two profiles on your radio. One with SXR, and one without. The Copy Profile feature is great for this. Then practice turn 1 entry after the straight. In most cases this is a "huck it in and pray" type of corner. Run the car without SXR for a pack. So you can get used to how the car turns in to turn one, and build up some muscle memory.
Then get a fresh pack, go back out for session 2 with SXR enabled. And take that same bonzai dive in to turn one. I can all but guarantee, you will be turning in too early, and will have to readjust your line mid corner to avoid the pipe. Because the initial turn in on the servo will be much sharper, and have more immediacy to it. From a purely static test, the total time delay from input to action may be the same in total delay, but the reaction of the servo will be much more linier with SXR, as opposed to "winding up" to speed like the standard digital servo mode. You can even hear a difference in the servo movement from one mode to the other.
If you want to make it a more truly blind test, have a buddy swap between the profiles for you, so you dont know which is which, and test it out. There is a difference there to be felt, more than you may think there is in general testing.
Interesting experiment worth playing with, just for giggles.
I personally use the ProPerformance servos, and the off center shake only happens if you dont have enough voltage goign through the BEC. Crank up the BEC, throw a larger cap onto the ESC, and hardwire your fans to the ESC power leads so they arent drawing down off the receiver bus power, and it will cut all of the on center jitter out of the Servo. To be fair, I have experienced the same thing on Futaba servos as well.
As for the benefits of SSR/SXR, the primary change is the way in which the signal and the power are delivered to the servo. And the immediacy with which the servo begins to react to the torque demand.
The best blind-ish test i have found, it to make two profiles on your radio. One with SXR, and one without. The Copy Profile feature is great for this. Then practice turn 1 entry after the straight. In most cases this is a "huck it in and pray" type of corner. Run the car without SXR for a pack. So you can get used to how the car turns in to turn one, and build up some muscle memory.
Then get a fresh pack, go back out for session 2 with SXR enabled. And take that same bonzai dive in to turn one. I can all but guarantee, you will be turning in too early, and will have to readjust your line mid corner to avoid the pipe. Because the initial turn in on the servo will be much sharper, and have more immediacy to it. From a purely static test, the total time delay from input to action may be the same in total delay, but the reaction of the servo will be much more linier with SXR, as opposed to "winding up" to speed like the standard digital servo mode. You can even hear a difference in the servo movement from one mode to the other.
If you want to make it a more truly blind test, have a buddy swap between the profiles for you, so you dont know which is which, and test it out. There is a difference there to be felt, more than you may think there is in general testing.
Interesting experiment worth playing with, just for giggles.
10-11-2022, 06:03 PM
#27
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by gigaplex
Does that work? Changing servo mode on the Sanwa radio requires rebinding the receiver each time. If you don't rebind, it'll just use the old setting. I've seen a lot of people change the setting and claim it's better without rebinding, and after I showed them it needs to be rebound, turns out their servo didn't support the faster mode in the first place. Placebo is one hell of a drug.
And, the real tell tail, is if you can hear a change in the servos tone, because the difference between SSR and SHR is noticeable.
10-11-2022, 06:29 PM
#28
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
Yes, you have to remind. THat is why having the copy settings feature, and two premade configs is essential. Sorry, i should have clarified that a little more.
And, the real tell tail, is if you can hear a change in the servos tone, because the difference between SSR and SHR is noticeable.
And, the real tell tail, is if you can hear a change in the servos tone, because the difference between SSR and SHR is noticeable.
10-11-2022, 07:04 PM
#29
Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
I personally use the ProPerformance servos, and the off center shake only happens if you dont have enough voltage goign through the BEC. Crank up the BEC, throw a larger cap onto the ESC, and hardwire your fans to the ESC power leads so they arent drawing down off the receiver bus power, and it will cut all of the on center jitter out of the Servo. To be fair, I have experienced the same thing on Futaba servos as well.
10-12-2022, 09:55 AM
#30
Tech Adept
Reefs and AGF do not have SXR servos as someone typed above and I have never heard of Rhino
The Pro Performance servos are amazing night and day difference between my Sanwa servos
The Pro Performance servos are amazing night and day difference between my Sanwa servos
