Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Radio and Electronics
How is Trinity able to continue selling "ROAR approved" $175 motors? >

How is Trinity able to continue selling "ROAR approved" $175 motors?

Like Tree16Likes

How is Trinity able to continue selling "ROAR approved" $175 motors?

Reply

Old 12-05-2018, 02:51 PM
  #1  
Tech Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 738
Trader Rating: 46 (100%+)
Default How is Trinity able to continue selling "ROAR approved" $175 motors?

As the title says, how is Trinity able to offer a $175 variant of their Monster Max motors when ROAR rules state the maximum allowable price for an approved motor is $150?
biz77 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 03:44 PM
  #2  
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 7,334
Default

Because there is much more than only ROAR....
Roelof is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 03:54 PM
  #3  
Tech Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 738
Trader Rating: 46 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Because there is much more than only ROAR....
The question pertains specifically to ROAR.

The question is:
If ROAR says a motor must cost no more than $150 to be on the ROAR approved list, then why are there $175 motors on the ROAR approved list?
gigaplex likes this.
biz77 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 03:55 PM
  #4  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 153
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Because it is hard to enforce. Let's say you spend $120 on a maclan v2 motor and then spend an additional $40 on the high torque rotor and another $20 on aluminum timing and stator screws. Is that motor now illegal? It gets into a grey area and I don't think there is a definitive right or wrong answer to this.
dawgmeat, dave-man and billdelong like this.
Kelseyrc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 04:03 PM
  #5  
Tech Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 738
Trader Rating: 46 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Kelseyrc View Post
Because it is hard to enforce. Let's say you spend $120 on a maclan v2 motor and then spend an additional $40 on the high torque rotor and another $20 on aluminum timing and stator screws. Is that motor now illegal? It gets into a grey area and I don't think there is a definitive right or wrong answer to this.
Rom ROAR:
3 – The rule revisions make it clear that the maximum allowable price for approved motors applies to all variants sold by the original manufacturer / importer including tuned or select motors. The revisions also make it clear that the penalty for exceeding the maximum price will be removal of the motor from the list of approved motors.

The rule:
8.4.4 Maximum retail pricing for ROAR approved motors. 8.4.4.1 Approved motors must be commercially available to consumers through hobby dealers and / or retail web shops nationwide for a retail price not exceeding the prices listed below. The maximum price includes any aftermarket tuning, preparation and “blueprinting” to specifications. In the case where a manufacturer / importer sells versions of a specific motor to consumers at prices above the maximum listed, the approval of that motor will be revoked. 8.4.4.2 The maximum retail price of a “05 or 540” brushless motor shall be $150.00. 8.4.4.3 The maximum retail price of a 1/8th brushless motor shall be $299.00.

The Certified Team Spec motors fall into the "all variants sold" category. I would say in your Maclan example that the motor is not offered in this assembled form directly from the manufacturer and therefore does not fall under the "all variants sold" category.

Last edited by biz77; 12-05-2018 at 04:14 PM.
biz77 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 04:27 PM
  #6  
Tech Adept
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 153
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
Rom ROAR:
3 – The rule revisions make it clear that the maximum allowable price for approved motors applies to all variants sold by the original manufacturer / importer including tuned or select motors. The revisions also make it clear that the penalty for exceeding the maximum price will be removal of the motor from the list of approved motors.

The rule:
8.4.4 Maximum retail pricing for ROAR approved motors. 8.4.4.1 Approved motors must be commercially available to consumers through hobby dealers and / or retail web shops nationwide for a retail price not exceeding the prices listed below. The maximum price includes any aftermarket tuning, preparation and “blueprinting” to specifications. In the case where a manufacturer / importer sells versions of a specific motor to consumers at prices above the maximum listed, the approval of that motor will be revoked. 8.4.4.2 The maximum retail price of a “05 or 540” brushless motor shall be $150.00. 8.4.4.3 The maximum retail price of a 1/8th brushless motor shall be $299.00.

The Certified Team Spec motors fall into the "all variants sold" category. I would say in your Maclan example that the motor is not offered in this assembled form directly from the manufacturer and therefore does not fall under the "all variants sold" category.
I agree that the Maclan doesn't fall into the all variants sold category. However, it does seem to me that the section on aftermarket tuning would apply to the example. Given that, I would think that the example provided would also be illegal under ROAR rules.
billdelong likes this.
Kelseyrc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 05:28 PM
  #7  
Super Moderator
iTrader: (201)
 
Marcos.J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Semper Fi
Posts: 29,148
Trader Rating: 201 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
As the title says, how is Trinity able to offer a $175 variant of their Monster Max motors when ROAR rules state the maximum allowable price for an approved motor is $150?
the base price of the motor is less than $150, the $175 has all the option aluminum screws and certified tune
Marcos.J is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 05:52 PM
  #8  
Tech Addict
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 738
Trader Rating: 46 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Marcos.J View Post
the base price of the motor is less than $150, the $175 has all the option aluminum screws and certified tune
And again, per ROAR:
"The maximum price includes any aftermarket tuning, preparation and “blueprinting” to specifications. In the case where a manufacturer / importer sells versions of a specific motor to consumers at prices above the maximum listed, the approval of that motor will be revoked. 8.4.4.2 The maximum retail price of a “05 or 540” brushless motor shall be $150.00."

The rules state that a manufacturer is limited to a maximum $150 price for a complete motor. This is not the same thing as selling a motor and offering add-on "hop-ups" which take the price over $150.00 per the earlier Maclan example. Just to further clear this up, per the ROAR rules the following would be completely acceptable as long as all the parts were submitted to and approved by ROAR:

Trinity sells a base motor with 5% certified stator for $120
Trinity offers a 5% certified high Gauss tuning rotor for $35 separately
Trinity offers an aluminum screw set for $15.00 separately
Trinity offers a ceramic bearing set for $20 separately
Adding all of the above add-ons to the original $120 motor is WITHIN the rules, despite now having essentially a $190 motor. Selling a motor with all the above equipment in a finished form for a price above $150 is NOT within the rules.

Why is Trinity seemingly the only one that does this and gets away with it? All other manufacturers seem to be offering their fully optioned and tuned motors at $150.00 to comply with the rules.

gigaplex likes this.
biz77 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 04:38 AM
  #9  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,210
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Racing, politics and $$$ go hand in hand
BINSONC likes this.
rccartips is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:42 AM
  #10  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (31)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Austin,TX
Posts: 3,069
Trader Rating: 31 (97%+)
Default

IIRC, there was a ROAR official who stated somewhere that they would give Trinity some undisclosed period of time to correct their pricing before ROAR revoked their certification, not like ROAR hasn't revoked a certification from Trinity in the past, but not without consequence:
Trinity Sues ROAR Over D3.5 Brushless Motor Ban

I see both sides of the argument, and motor wars have really gone out of control, I do appreciate that ROAR is looking out for the best interest of the consumer, but I find it ironic how the local club in my area has chosen to allow the Trinity Punisher ($60 motor) to keep costs down where the Punisher is not ROAR approved and it's just as fast if not faster than most ROAR approved team motors on the market. They don't allow the Punisher to run in ROAR sanctioned races and the only reason I didn't race the 13.5T class at the ROAR 1/10 regionals in my area last month was because I didn't feel like swapping out the motor. In this case ROAR spited themselves from getting more stock entries, I know I wasn't the only one who balked on the ROAR stock classes. I simply ran my Mod 4WD SCT instead for the ROAR event... there were a couple guys who ran their 13.5T Punisher's in the Mod class just to make a point.

I'm ever thankful that the emerging 1/10 Truck class in my area is growing based on open mod motors, so much less butt hurt.

Last edited by billdelong; 12-06-2018 at 06:56 AM.
billdelong is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:50 AM
  #11  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
gigaplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Melbourne, VIC
Posts: 2,396
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

The simple answer is that Trinity chose to do it and ROAR haven't bothered enforcing the rule. The last time ROAR removed a Trinity motor from the approval list, Trinity sued ROAR, which prompted ROAR to put it back on the list.
iTz Nicholas72 likes this.
gigaplex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:57 AM
  #12  
Super Moderator
iTrader: (201)
 
Marcos.J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Semper Fi
Posts: 29,148
Trader Rating: 201 (100%+)
Default

Name one track that follows ROAR rules to the letter
1/8 IC Fan likes this.
Marcos.J is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:59 AM
  #13  
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Deep South Texas
Posts: 747
Default

Inflation....
Marcos.J likes this.
chuck_thehammer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 10:04 AM
  #14  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (126)
 
RC*PHREAK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,752
Trader Rating: 126 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by billdelong View Post
IIRC, there was a ROAR official who stated somewhere that they would give Trinity some undisclosed period of time to correct their pricing before ROAR revoked their certification, not like ROAR hasn't revoked a certification from Trinity in the past, but not without consequence:
Trinity Sues ROAR Over D3.5 Brushless Motor Ban

I see both sides of the argument, and motor wars have really gone out of control, I do appreciate that ROAR is looking out for the best interest of the consumer, but I find it ironic how the local club in my area has chosen to allow the Trinity Punisher ($60 motor) to keep costs down where the Punisher is not ROAR approved and it's just as fast if not faster than most ROAR approved team motors on the market. They don't allow the Punisher to run in ROAR sanctioned races and the only reason I didn't race the 13.5T class at the ROAR 1/10 regionals in my area last month was because I didn't feel like swapping out the motor. In this case ROAR spited themselves from getting more stock entries, I know I wasn't the only one who balked on the ROAR stock classes. I simply ran my Mod 4WD SCT instead for the ROAR event... there were a couple guys who ran their 13.5T Punisher's in the Mod class just to make a point.

I'm ever thankful that the emerging 1/10 Truck class in my area is growing based on open mod motors, so much less butt hurt.
what ROAR approved motor did you run in 4x4 SCT?

RC*PHREAK is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 10:38 AM
  #15  
Tech Champion
 
Roelof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Holland
Posts: 7,334
Default

Does the 150 dollar rules say something about tax? If not then there is a hole in the rule....
Roelof is online now  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service