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What would work better today?

Old 07-09-2018, 07:55 PM
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Default What would work better today?

I have an old KO Mars radio that works fine. I have a couple of FM receivers for it, and a couple of SR3500 DSM and module for it.

OR I have a Flysky GT3B .. that I am going to do the firmware and battery and bearing.. well .. just because I can.

Which would actually be better .. today.. I dont care about model memory. I am running 1 car. But what about the DSM vs whatever the Flysky uses?? and overall with the systems, ranges, failures.

Wondered maybe even to use the FM because no one runs FM anymore, might be cleanest air with that????

james
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Old 07-10-2018, 05:41 AM
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personally, I would stay away from any system that uses direct sequencing... instead of FlySky, I would encourage you to consider Radiolink which is a far superior system for many reasons... more info here to help you gain a stronger understanding about what's on the market today:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...em-is-the-Best
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:24 AM
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Thanks for the link billelong. I am reading it now. I wonder, why did you not look at FM at all? Now with all the other higher frequency hopping systems, would not a system on FM be a very clean area to operate. The only issue I see with FM is still the operation inside a mostly metal building with metal roof etc.. aka most warehouses.

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Old 07-12-2018, 07:40 AM
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Older FM radios tend to lack many features that are offered by modern computer controlled systems. There are too many features to list, but the top 3 on my personal list are these:

1) Frequency hopping, no risk of losing signal or getting any interference
2) Exponential rates, allow you to drive smoother lines
3) Model memory/naming

I don't think FM radios are manufactured anymore, at least they are not marketed anywhere in the industry that I know of.... times have changed with spread spectrum being the best that current technology has to offer.

I cover some of the newer features that are offered with the latest release from Radiolink:

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Old 07-12-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bikerbob View Post
Thanks for the link billelong. I am reading it now. I wonder, why did you not look at FM at all? Now with all the other higher frequency hopping systems, would not a system on FM be a very clean area to operate. The only issue I see with FM is still the operation inside a mostly metal building with metal roof etc.. aka most warehouses.

James
Your right - your definitely not competing with anyone for frequency if your the only FM radio on the track. And your KO might have EPA/Expo/Dual rates etc as towards the end of the FM radio generations many had those digital features - the Airtronics M8 has most of the features of todays radios. But crystals do age and breakdown with all the vibration, there is still alot of other outside interference that can glitch servos (although not nearly as bad as AM), and I think there have been problems using modern digital servos on older analog technology.

If your racing on a budget and you have the flysky I would use that over the FM radio. Even if its not frequency hopping it should still be better then FM.
If your planning on racing alot and for a while I would consider a older mid-range radio 2.4 radio....great bang for the buck like a Airtronics MT-4
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by billdelong View Post
Older FM radios tend to lack many features that are offered by modern computer controlled systems. There are too many features to list, but the top 3 on my personal list are these:

1) Frequency hopping, no risk of losing signal or getting any interference
2) Exponential rates, allow you to drive smoother lines
3) Model memory/naming
I do not know in what world you live in but probably not in the RC world,

1) FHSS is just a technology but it stays a normal FM transmitter which still can and will be disturbed by bad signals
2) You do not know the KO Mars, is it? It has basically all the functional options you want like exponential athough it is called "curve" with that transmitter
3) Also the Mars has more model memories

The Mars is an old style transmitter with a normal PPM framerate. Using FM will give you basically no latency because there is no signal processing by tiny computers but with FM and 2.4ghz you will work with a framerate of 20msec.

Still many todays lower budget 2.4ghz transmitters have that framerate of 20msec while the better transmitters have faster framerates (2 to 5.5 msec) what will give you a much faster response. Futaba 3PV, 4PV and 4PLS and the Sanwa MT4 series are affordabel transmitters with higher framerate (need digital servo's). If you want KO then sadly there is no budget or midrange system available.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
I do not know in what world you live in but probably not in the RC world,
This personal insult is not necessary, I suggest you read my reply again... yes I am aware that KO Propo offered a very expensive option at one time which offered some nice features, but the OP is targeting budget systems with initial interest toward FlySky. Anyway, I challenge you to list all other FM systems available "today" which meet these requirements? Once you finish making your list, then you might come to realize that what I said was indeed accurate.

Latency is pretty much irrelevant with most modern systems, again I challenge you to prove how much your lap times are effected when comparing various systems. While I agree there is a slight difference in latency, the effect on lap times will be statistically insignificant.







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Old 07-12-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by billdelong View Post
This personal insult is not necessary, I suggest you read my reply again... yes I am aware that KO Propo offered a very expensive option at one time which offered some nice features, but the OP is targeting budget systems with initial interest toward FlySky. Anyway, I challenge you to list all other FM systems available "today" which meet these requirements? Once you finish making your list, then you might come to realize that what I said was indeed accurate.

Latency is pretty much irrelevant with most modern systems, again I challenge you to prove how much your lap times are effected when comparing various systems. While I agree there is a slight difference in latency, the effect on lap times will be statistically insignificant.
OP already has the high end KO FM radio. He is only targeting budget systems to compare to what he already has.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by urnotevenwrg2 View Post
OP already has the high end KO FM radio. He is only targeting budget systems to compare to what he already has.
as we go full circle back to my original reply in post #2 with a link to a comparison chart that I made with what I felt were the most important features in selecting a radio to suit my personal needs. Each individual will have different requirements, but it's gonna take a fair amount of research to figure out "what's better" for him when in the end, only he will be able to make that decision on his own... there are some who believe "if it aint broke then don't fix it", then there are others who feel that having the latest and greatest is always better.

On a side note, the GT3B does have the option to update the firmware, I did this one in order to hack the ability for channel mixing so I could use an R/C Motorcycle, not many systems give you this much flexibility:


In contrast, without any hacking necessary, you get this feature already with Radiolink:

All it takes is a requirement for 1 feature, and then the next thing you know, something else has become obsolete.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by billdelong View Post
as we go full circle back to my original reply in post #2 with a link to a comparison chart that I made with what I felt were the most important features in selecting a radio to suit my personal needs. Each individual will have different requirements, but it's gonna take a fair amount of research to figure out "what's better" for him when in the end, only he will be able to make that decision on his own... there are some who believe "if it aint broke then don't fix it", then there are others who feel that having the latest and greatest is always better.

On a side note, the GT3B does have the option to update the firmware, I did this one in order to hack the ability for channel mixing so I could use an R/C Motorcycle, not many systems give you this much flexibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4cHW38T_tA

In contrast, without any hacking necessary, you get this feature already with Radiolink:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_34oSUgtGs

All it takes is a requirement for 1 feature, and then the next thing you know, something else has become obsolete.
Your whole point is based off the idea that "older FM radios don't have features like exponential and model memory". When in fact the FM radio he already owns has those features.

Either way as long as the radio he has isn't doing anything funny, I say keep running it. When everyone switched to 2.4ghz I kept my Airtronics M8 FM for a long time. Eventually the crystals get noisy, and the FM module usually starts to do funny stuff, that was when I finally caved and went 2.4

There is a nice low hours 2.4ghz KO radio for sale on here for $120. Probably the closest he will find to a low price 2.4ghz KO.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
I do not know in what world you live in but probably not in the RC world,

1) FHSS is just a technology but it stays a normal FM transmitter which still can and will be disturbed by bad signals
2) You do not know the KO Mars, is it? It has basically all the functional options you want like exponential athough it is called "curve" with that transmitter
3) Also the Mars has more model memories

The Mars is an old style transmitter with a normal PPM framerate. Using FM will give you basically no latency because there is no signal processing by tiny computers but with FM and 2.4ghz you will work with a framerate of 20msec.

Still many todays lower budget 2.4ghz transmitters have that framerate of 20msec while the better transmitters have faster framerates (2 to 5.5 msec) what will give you a much faster response. Futaba 3PV, 4PV and 4PLS and the Sanwa MT4 series are affordabel transmitters with higher framerate (need digital servo's). If you want KO then sadly there is no budget or midrange system available.
Would a Eurus EX-10 with a DSS RF-902s be a significant upgrade? DSS is just KOs own version of DSM?

Also I have the Spektrum DSM module for the KO Mars (SO FM + DSM) and I just bought for the heck of it. The ORANGE RX module that is supposed to be DSM2 and DSMX. This states that it will work in a PPM radio. BUT you say that my KO MARS is transmitting at 20ms anyway??? even if I put the DSM in OR the OrangeRX?? OR does the DSM and the ORangeRX ADD TO THAT Latency.. so it would be like 25ms or 30ms.. IN OTHERWORDS.. using the KO Mars my Latency will never be lower than 20ms.

SO.. that EURUS.. looks like it might be a deal - just to be more modern, but in the same style of radio I already like. FOR arguement sake.. is DSS quicker?? like say 10ms.. and the point is.. unless I had kick ass digital servos, and already was a kick ass driver that needed the top edge.. am I going to notice ANY OF THIS ANYWAY?????

James

James

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Old 07-12-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by urnotevenwrg2 View Post
Your whole point is based off the idea that "older FM radios don't have features like exponential and model memory". When in fact the FM radio he already owns has those features.

Either way as long as the radio he has isn't doing anything funny, I say keep running it. When everyone switched to 2.4ghz I kept my Airtronics M8 FM for a long time. Eventually the crystals get noisy, and the FM module usually starts to do funny stuff, that was when I finally caved and went 2.4

There is a nice low hours 2.4ghz KO radio for sale on here for $120. Probably the closest he will find to a low price 2.4ghz KO.
You're absolutely correct.

It's also worth noting that modern 2.4 systems can age as well. I bought a used KO Propo EX-1 about 3 years ago... I don't recall exactly how many hours of use was on the system, but I am certain it was under 100 hours which made me feel comfortable it had plenty of reasonable life left in it. The system worked extremely well for about 3-4 months and then I'd get hit with intermittent glitching. I would later learn that I needed to periodically "calibrate" each channel for every single model memory. At the time I was running 10 classes and this proved to be a burden that I wasn't willing to deal with after a year of running the system.

I have since switched to a different brand and have logged easily double the usage time over the past 2+ years without a single issue.

What I have learned is that I won't buy another used radio system again unless I absolutely trust the previous owner. I'm still on the fence with KO Propo because I know that the issue I experienced was relatively common for that particular system.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:09 PM
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Yeah, if you get a radio that is up there in hours you can usually have them reset and tuned up. I'm fairly certain that Futaba does this, but you have to ship them your radio and probably pay a $15 service fee. My current radio is a second hand Futaba 4PKS-R with a lot of hours on it. I did a soft reboot on it when I got it and it hasn't missed a beat. If I have problems I will send it in to get serviced. IDK if KO does radio service, but I hear they have a pretty active fb page and I bet they could answer that question.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:55 PM
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Yes, I probably should've given KO Propo a second chance by sending the unit in for repair, but there were too many fundamental problems with the design that I just needed to try a different brand that had addressed some key features that were more important to me.

1) EX-1 was heavy and unbalanced
2) EX-1 lacked external charger, charge port existed but manufacturer refused to sell a charge adapter for the system
3) EX-1 programming was very difficult, way more trouble than was worth it
4) KO-Propo Rx's are too expensive, after switching to Graupner I can get Rx's for about $25

To be completely honest, I really wasn't expecting my Graupner to last as long as it has already... it came with a 2 year warranty, which has it already on bought time. I had planned to switch over to Futaba or Airtronics once the Graupner started causing issue, but the system has been too good to give up. With Airtronics going bankrupt, I'm leary of trying Sanwa which pretty much will give my next shot at Futaba if/when the time comes, but Graupner has since released a newer system with even better features than what I originally got which has me suckered in with the ideology that "having the latest and greatest is better" (but within reason when factoring in price)

Brands that have disappointed me and I choose to stay away from are:
  • FlySky
  • Spektrum
  • Radiopost

what's common between these brands? they all are based on direct sequencing

Last edited by billdelong; 07-12-2018 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikerbob View Post
Would a Eurus EX-10 with a DSS RF-902s be a significant upgrade? DSS is just KOs own version of DSM?

SO.. that EURUS.. looks like it might be a deal - just to be more modern, but in the same style of radio I already like. FOR arguement sake.. is DSS quicker?? like say 10ms.. and the point is.. unless I had kick ass digital servos, and already was a kick ass driver that needed the top edge.. am I going to notice ANY OF THIS ANYWAY?????

James

James
Sanwa M11X Faster or Ko Propo ex10 Eurus?

about half way down they talk latency numbers. Looks like getting under 10ms shouldn't be a problem. They even have some latency data on your Mars maybe too.

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