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MyLaps update killing MRT, AMBrc DP and house transponders!

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MyLaps update killing MRT, AMBrc DP and house transponders!

Old 11-04-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by racer1812
You really are a fan of Chinese Knock offs
aren't you, that's not even a question.
First off, your racist comment is unbecoming... you should also do your homework better, MRT is based out of the UK:

Team MRT

Originally Posted by Team MRT
MODEL RACING TECHNOLOGY
258 Dover Road, Folkestone,
Kent, CT19 6NS, England
Whether I choose to support Chinese manufacturers is really irrelevant, but since you asked, let's take a brief run down of where MY money goes (i.e. not YOUR money):

Majority of kits I race: Tekno = USA Distributor / Taiwan Mfr
Tires: 6MIK, ProLine, Schumacher = USA Distributors, + France and England Mfr's
Batteries: SMC, ProMatch = USA Distributors, pretty sure all batteries come from China regardless
Majority ESC's: HobbyWing = USA Distributor / China Mfr
Motors: Trinity,SMC,HobbyWing = USA Distributors
Radio: Graupner = USA Distributor / Korea Mfr
Servos: Savox, PowerHD, JX = USA Distributors / China

It's safe to say that my budget is fairly balanced with the bulk of my expenses (batteries/tires) going toward USA Distributors... does that satisfy your racist requirements? As much as your hatred is apparent for China (kinda sad really) the fact remains that it's nearly impossible to buy 100% American made products if that is what you're forcing upon me.

Originally Posted by Roelof
Here you are wrong.......

Like with MAC adresses of network cards it is determed in what range each company can create their MAC adresses, the same with RFID and all othe unique hard coded identify numbers and may only use it once.
Never once experienced a duplicate RFID at any of the dozens of clubs I've raced over the years, however IF I ever come across a rare case where these is a duplicate, there are 20 different RFID's that I can easily switch with the press of a button, and I think the largest class I've ever raced had something like 15 drivers on the stand so this concern you have is 100% irrelevant due to the forethought that MRT put into their design
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Old 11-05-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by racer1812
Tracks that still rely on those heavily are barely a blip on the radar, and honestly are even a topic of discussion really. I don't see MRT offering a house PT to track owners, why not??
It is a different topic but those that are still out there are affected.
If your local track doesn't have house transponders then are new people at these tracks shelling out $100 bucks to start racing? I don't think I would of gotten back in without getting a chance to test the waters.

I don't think tracks rely on house transponders either - but new people getting into the hobby do. Maybe its a new product line that mylaps needs to offer along with the update. Novices at my local track will bring whatever they have to run and throw in a house transponder for the night. Eventually some get hooked and buy new cars, equipment and a transponder. Seems like a good business model is to have house transponders. But your right - these are a pain to service the battery and even the 5 or so left don't hold a charge more then an hour or two.

Talking to one our local dirt track operator they are aware of the update and are not going to do it based that there is no benefit to them and on what it would do to the racers. The tracks bread and butter is based on racer turnout - not on selling transponders.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:36 AM
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Here we have an interesting topic, which warrants discussion.

The recent MyLaps decoder update removes detection of AMB-DP, "House", and MRT transponders. The kicker being that this is not mentioned when obtaining the update. It is easy to see how this is anti-consumerist in practice. With updates being irreversible, tracks are now stuck with $3000 decoders with reduced compatibility. The tracks have to force their racers to buy new transponders to work with the system. Right now, we see a flood of used AMB-DP and MRT transponders on eBay.

This action by MyLaps makes us question the current timing system scene. Are systems and transponders reasonably priced? What alternatives exist? What can reasonably be done?

The cost of electronics for the hobby has generally gone down. We've seen the commoditization of most components; ESCs, Servos, Receivers, etc. Yet, for RF timing systems, this has not been the case. Why is it that a new MyLaps transponder should cost as much as most of the other electronics in a vehicle?

AMB/MyLaps has had an effective monopoly on the RF timing scene for decades, and this doesn't help. Competition like MRT will only help reduce the price of the transponders, bringing these prices down to reasonable levels. Alternative timing systems, like Infrared-based systems such as I-Lap and Trackmate, also help.

Choice is not really available for the racers, as they have to use the transponder supported by the local track's timing system. With the fragility and rarity of RC tracks, avoiding tracks using a different timing system is similar to quitting the hobby altogether.

It is the hobby-shops and tracks that DO have choices. Do they wish to stay with MyLaps, or might they consider alternative systems? If you truly wish to reduce the cost of entry to the hobby, encourage your track to use alternative timing systems.

The problem is, alternative timing systems do not usually have compatibility with other manufacturers. For RF systems, as Howard mentioned, the RF decoders are complicated to design, and face large hurdles, for relatively little or uncertain profitability. This is why we don't currently see alternative RF decoders, compatible with AMB/MyLaps.

We do see many Infrared (IR) based systems available, with IR transponders being $20-40, and full systems around $500. The hardware for IR systems is much simpler, and cheaper to design and build. These work with most popular lap-timing software, and can help reduce the cost of entry. Since these transponders are cheaper, "house" transponders are less expensive to replace. I encourage tracks to migrate to IR systems for these reasons.

The only way to change the timing system scene, is to encourage competition. This can be through support of compatible transponders, and alternative systems.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by billdelong
Never once experienced a duplicate RFID at any of the dozens of clubs I've raced over the years, however IF I ever come across a rare case where these is a duplicate, there are 20 different RFID's that I can easily switch with the press of a button, and I think the largest class I've ever raced had something like 15 drivers on the stand so this concern you have is 100% irrelevant due to the forethought that MRT put into their design
Agreed, this is a good observation. It is worth noting that the probability of collisions (two transponders being made with the same ID) is about 1/10,000,000. I doubt that more than 25,000 transponders have ever been made. Thus, multiple manufacturers making transponders would be unlikely to cause collisions.
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Old 11-05-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by billdelong
First off, your racist comment is unbecoming... you should also do your homework better, MRT is based out of the UK:

Team MRT



Whether I choose to support Chinese manufacturers is really irrelevant, but since you asked, let's take a brief run down of where MY money goes (i.e. not YOUR money):

Majority of kits I race: Tekno = USA Distributor / Taiwan Mfr
Tires: 6MIK, ProLine, Schumacher = USA Distributors, + France and England Mfr's
Batteries: SMC, ProMatch = USA Distributors, pretty sure all batteries come from China regardless
Majority ESC's: HobbyWing = USA Distributor / China Mfr
Motors: Trinity,SMC,HobbyWing = USA Distributors
Radio: Graupner = USA Distributor / Korea Mfr
Servos: Savox, PowerHD, JX = USA Distributors / China

It's safe to say that my budget is fairly balanced with the bulk of my expenses (batteries/tires) going toward USA Distributors... does that satisfy your racist requirements? As much as your hatred is apparent for China (kinda sad really) the fact remains that it's nearly impossible to buy 100% American made products if that is what you're forcing upon me.



Never once experienced a duplicate RFID at any of the dozens of clubs I've raced over the years, however IF I ever come across a rare case where these is a duplicate, there are 20 different RFID's that I can easily switch with the press of a button, and I think the largest class I've ever raced had something like 15 drivers on the stand so this concern you have is 100% irrelevant due to the forethought that MRT put into their design
I know where MRT is from. Point being is that what they're doing is the same as what many Chinese companies do..make knock offs

Racist, really. How does my dislike for China's questionable, at best, business practices make me racist? China is the largest producer of copied, reverse engineered, patent law breaking, KNOCK OFF products in the world. That not racist, that's a fact. Because of this many people like yourself try to avoid Chinese products when they can, great. But when MRT does the same thing why is it that people not only buy their product, but defend them as well?
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Old 11-05-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Aether4E0A
Agreed, this is a good observation. It is worth noting that the probability of collisions (two transponders being made with the same ID) is about 1/10,000,000. I doubt that more than 25,000 transponders have ever been made. Thus, multiple manufacturers making transponders would be unlikely to cause collisions.
So that makes what MRT is doing o.k.?
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Old 11-05-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by howardcano
Transponders have been manufactured by other companies because they are simple, profitable, and contain nothing that is protected by patent or copyright law (therefore not requiring licensing).

Decoders are far more complicated, less profitable, and in the case of AMB/MyLaps, protected by at least one patent. While it is possible to create a decoder that does not infringe on any patents, that won't prevent MyLaps from filing a lawsuit against any company offering a similar decoder for sale. The lawsuit can be without merit, but defending against it still costs quite a bit of money. That's a big reason why there are no commercially-produced, competitive decoders.

Right or wrong, it comes down to money.
You have seen mylaps patent? If you read the Patent, it appears to cover both a transmitting device and a detecting device.

Mylaps patent

FIELD OF THE INVENTION

[0002] The invention relates to detecting the passing between a transmitter and a detector, and, in particular, though not exclusively, to a methods and a system for detecting on the passing between a transmitter module and a detection module, a detector module and a transponder for use in such system and a computer program product using such method.
I dont speak lawyer but, it would appear the protocol used to transmit data is protected. Kinda negates your comment?
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkgenerals
You have seen mylaps patent? If you read the Patent, it appears to cover both a transmitting device and a detecting device.

Mylaps patent

I dont speak lawyer but, it would appear the protocol used to transmit data is protected. Kinda negates your comment?
Here's the thing, the language is written ambiguously (probably on purpose) that it leaves a rather loose interpretation. In contrast, there are too many cases that have been argued in the past which would easily find in favor of MRT... starting with the IBM lawsuit against Compaq:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq

"Unlike many startups, Compaq differentiated its offerings from the many other IBM clones by not focusing mainly on price, but instead concentrating on new features"... Compaq was a US based company, i.e. not from China

The key here is "new features" and bear in mind that MRT offers new features such as reverse polarity protection, custom ID requests, and swap-able ID's.

There is no doubt in my mind that if MYLaps was ever foolish enough to build a case against MRT, then MYLaps would get laughed out of court. Now if MRT didn't offer any new features, then yeah, I'd be drinking the same Kool-Aid as everyone else.

The key difference is "improving upon the original design".

Last edited by billdelong; 11-05-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 11-05-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by racer1812
I know where MRT is from. Point being is that what they're doing is the same as what many Chinese companies do..make knock offs

Racist, really. How does my dislike for China's questionable, at best, business practices make me racist? China is the largest producer of copied, reverse engineered, patent law breaking, KNOCK OFF products in the world. That not racist, that's a fact. Because of this many people like yourself try to avoid Chinese products when they can, great. But when MRT does the same thing why is it that people not only buy their product, but defend them as well?
You've just stereotyped a whole race in a derogatory fashion. They have the largest population in the world. Of course they're likely to top the charts in many categories in terms of sheer numbers. That doesn't mean every product from China wilfully violates IP laws.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:31 PM
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Get a grip. Us population vs the world is only 4%. Only 13% of world population is white. There’s a big chance something you wanna buy is gonna be by another country and race from your own.Rip MYLAPS. They will be gone like other greats.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jasburrito
Get a grip. Us population vs the world is only 4%. Only 13% of world population is white. There’s a big chance something you wanna buy is gonna be by another country and race from your own.Rip MYLAPS. They will be gone like other greats.
Its funny how naive people are, you do understand just how large mylaps is? They offer timing products to a large number of markets.

Them phasing out a very old generation of products wont even hurt them. I bet they will make money, and a decent amount from this.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by billdelong
Here's the thing, the language is written ambiguously (probably on purpose) that it leaves a rather loose interpretation. In contrast, there are too many cases that have been argued in the past which would easily find in favor of MRT... starting with the IBM lawsuit against Compaq:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq

"Unlike many startups, Compaq differentiated its offerings from the many other IBM clones by not focusing mainly on price, but instead concentrating on new features"... Compaq was a US based company, i.e. not from China

The key here is "new features" and bear in mind that MRT offers new features such as reverse polarity protection, custom ID requests, and swap-able ID's.

There is no doubt in my mind that if MYLaps was ever foolish enough to build a case against MRT, then MYLaps would get laughed out of court. Now if MRT didn't offer any new features, then yeah, I'd be drinking the same Kool-Aid as everyone else.

The key difference is "improving upon the original design".
So your going to stop using all mylap products?
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Old 11-06-2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sacmiata
It is a different topic but those that are still out there are affected.
If your local track doesn't have house transponders then are new people at these tracks shelling out $100 bucks to start racing? I don't think I would of gotten back in without getting a chance to test the waters.

I don't think tracks rely on house transponders either - but new people getting into the hobby do. Maybe its a new product line that mylaps needs to offer along with the update. Novices at my local track will bring whatever they have to run and throw in a house transponder for the night. Eventually some get hooked and buy new cars, equipment and a transponder. Seems like a good business model is to have house transponders. But your right - these are a pain to service the battery and even the 5 or so left don't hold a charge more then an hour or two.

Talking to one our local dirt track operator they are aware of the update and are not going to do it based that there is no benefit to them and on what it would do to the racers. The tracks bread and butter is based on racer turnout - not on selling transponders.
I doubt MyLaps would create a new product line for house transponders. Clubs can just loan out regular MyLaps transponders if they were willing to buy new transponders.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Darkgenerals
You have seen mylaps patent?

I dont speak lawyer but, it would appear the protocol used to transmit data is protected. Kinda negates your comment?
I have read the patents. There is nothing in the claims that would protect the protocol.
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Last edited by howardcano; 11-06-2017 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Darkgenerals
So your going to stop using all mylap products?
Never said I would stop using their products, but I prefer to have the freedom to make my own choice of which products I choose to purchase (and when), I'm not a fan of socialism which limits everyone to only 1 more expensive option.
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