Unfair Advantage in Sportsman buggy Need Advice
11-10-2008, 09:24 AM
#1
Unfair Advantage in Sportsman buggy Need Advice
I wanted to get some advice from some you guys out there. I am new to RC racing, started about 4 months ago;but grew up racing motocross and BMX.
Situation:
I have been racing at a local track down here, I really like the lay-out and the people. Naturally I run 1/8 sportman buggy, what I have found is there are a group of people that always run sportman buggy and always win. I was looking at the times yesterday after the 1st heat race and knowticed that these same 3 guys are turning laps as fast as most of the pros. Last night on went on line to look at race results a found that these guys have been running sportman and winning for about the last year. I brought it to the attention of track owners and he agreed with me. Also I have seen pros show up and run sportsman just because they wanted an easy trophy.
I am not trying to sound bitchy but for someone like myself that is new it is starting to become discourging. I was wondering how other tracks score or determine when a person would move up a class?
I pay 15.00 to race and just want a fair shot at a trophy racing against people close to my racing level. Everyone has been in my shoes and if I go and start making the wrong noise at the track I don't want to end up being the one that no one likes. Let me say this, when I have the skill to run with the pros I will.
Situation:
I have been racing at a local track down here, I really like the lay-out and the people. Naturally I run 1/8 sportman buggy, what I have found is there are a group of people that always run sportman buggy and always win. I was looking at the times yesterday after the 1st heat race and knowticed that these same 3 guys are turning laps as fast as most of the pros. Last night on went on line to look at race results a found that these guys have been running sportman and winning for about the last year. I brought it to the attention of track owners and he agreed with me. Also I have seen pros show up and run sportsman just because they wanted an easy trophy.
I am not trying to sound bitchy but for someone like myself that is new it is starting to become discourging. I was wondering how other tracks score or determine when a person would move up a class?
I pay 15.00 to race and just want a fair shot at a trophy racing against people close to my racing level. Everyone has been in my shoes and if I go and start making the wrong noise at the track I don't want to end up being the one that no one likes. Let me say this, when I have the skill to run with the pros I will.
11-10-2008, 09:56 AM
#2
Tracks I race at leave it up to the Race Director's discretion. They will bump somebody up if they start winning all the time. Additionally, if somebody wins 3 out of 5 races, they are bumped as well for time period. If they don't show marked improvement when racing in the competitive class, we'll allow them to go back down. I.e. They win all the time in our "sportsman", then when bumped up to the pros they are finishing in the back half, we'll consider moving them back down. For the most part, people don't have to bump back down though. Cuz the faster the guys you race with, the faster you are!
11-10-2008, 10:18 AM
#3
Yeah, you ought to talk to the race director and find out what the criteria is for their Sportsman class....I know at our track, our Sportsman class is limited to "first year racers" only.
After their first season of racing, they move up into the standard classes.
All tracks are different....Hang in there....The fast guys should be bumped out before you, so you should still have a chance of winning, down the road....
After their first season of racing, they move up into the standard classes.
All tracks are different....Hang in there....The fast guys should be bumped out before you, so you should still have a chance of winning, down the road....
11-10-2008, 10:30 AM
#4
Its the same in my area as well. Will your track owner consider a Novice class for new racers like yourself? I think that would be the better option I've always had mixed emotions about this. Yeah, even though you're a new racer, you want to come in and have a fair shot at wins and trophies, but at the same is it really fair to bump someone just because they've learned to dominate their particular class? In these economic times, Is it fair to tell this racer who is not sponsored, that they now have to move to a different level class because they've become too good for the class they probably prefer to race in? This often requires the racer to spend more money for a new motor (elec, or nitro,) batteries , what have you. They are no longer allowed to run in the class they originally chose, so the go-power they purchased for that class now sets on the shelf, or has to get sold for way less than the original purchase. That can be a discouring factor as well.
Fortunately in most cases, racers who dominate classes usually look for more challenges within other classes. Its like a video game, you win all the time, you get bored of the easy wins, and your need for a harder challenge takes over.
I totally understand bumping, but at times you have to really think,,"is it really fair?" If I love a particular class, If I spend hours on end wrenching and practicing, and I've become dominant at this particular class, I've paid my dues. I shouldn't be forced out of it because I worked hard at getting good at it... When I first came into RC racing, I wanted the faster guys in my class to stay put...It was the only way I could learn to be as fast as they were ... When I started keeping up with them, and getting wins, that's when I knew my game had stepped up. It takes patients, dedication and most of all, the Will to get better...Just like any other competitive/fun sport or game
... Just my opinion, but I do understand the bumping, but NOVICE classes should take care of this kind of deal.
Fortunately in most cases, racers who dominate classes usually look for more challenges within other classes. Its like a video game, you win all the time, you get bored of the easy wins, and your need for a harder challenge takes over.
I totally understand bumping, but at times you have to really think,,"is it really fair?" If I love a particular class, If I spend hours on end wrenching and practicing, and I've become dominant at this particular class, I've paid my dues. I shouldn't be forced out of it because I worked hard at getting good at it... When I first came into RC racing, I wanted the faster guys in my class to stay put...It was the only way I could learn to be as fast as they were
... When I started keeping up with them, and getting wins, that's when I knew my game had stepped up. It takes patients, dedication and most of all, the Will to get better...Just like any other competitive/fun sport or game ... Just my opinion, but I do understand the bumping, but NOVICE classes should take care of this kind of deal.
11-10-2008, 10:30 AM
#5
continue to work on ur skills, get better, run up there with them and even get ahead of em. that b4 anythin is said, move up to pro. even if you finish 10th in pro, thats better than winning the 'novice' class hehehe
R
R
11-10-2008, 10:44 AM
#6
This will always be the case when you start running things in skill level....
IMO the mains system has always worked well and just wished that they would get rid of skill level classes....
The race director just needs to seed everyone in the approriate qualifier.
IMO the mains system has always worked well and just wished that they would get rid of skill level classes....
The race director just needs to seed everyone in the approriate qualifier.
11-10-2008, 11:13 AM
#7
Its the same in my area as well. Will your track owner consider a Novice class for new racers like yourself? I think that would be the better option I've always had mixed emotions about this. Yeah, even though you're a new racer, you want to come in and have a fair shot at wins and trophies, but at the same is it really fair to bump someone just because they've learned to dominate their particular class? In these economic times, Is it fair to tell this racer who is not sponsored, that they now have to move to a different level class because they've become too good for the class they probably prefer to race in? This often requires the racer to spend more money for a new motor (elec, or nitro,) batteries , what have you. They are no longer allowed to run in the class they originally chose, so the go-power they purchased for that class now sets on the shelf, or has to get sold for way less than the original purchase. That can be a discouring factor as well.
Fortunately in most cases, racers who dominate classes usually look for more challenges within other classes. Its like a video game, you win all the time, you get bored of the easy wins, and your need for a harder challenge takes over.
I totally understand bumping, but at times you have to really think,,"is it really fair?" If I love a particular class, If I spend hours on end wrenching and practicing, and I've become dominant at this particular class, I've paid my dues. I shouldn't be forced out of it because I worked hard at getting good at it... When I first came into RC racing, I wanted the faster guys in my class to stay put...It was the only way I could learn to be as fast as they were ... When I started keeping up with them, and getting wins, that's when I knew my game had stepped up. It takes patients, dedication and most of all, the Will to get better...Just like any other competitive/fun sport or game
... Just my opinion, but I do understand the bumping, but NOVICE classes should take care of this kind of deal.
Fortunately in most cases, racers who dominate classes usually look for more challenges within other classes. Its like a video game, you win all the time, you get bored of the easy wins, and your need for a harder challenge takes over.
I totally understand bumping, but at times you have to really think,,"is it really fair?" If I love a particular class, If I spend hours on end wrenching and practicing, and I've become dominant at this particular class, I've paid my dues. I shouldn't be forced out of it because I worked hard at getting good at it... When I first came into RC racing, I wanted the faster guys in my class to stay put...It was the only way I could learn to be as fast as they were
... When I started keeping up with them, and getting wins, that's when I knew my game had stepped up. It takes patients, dedication and most of all, the Will to get better...Just like any other competitive/fun sport or game ... Just my opinion, but I do understand the bumping, but NOVICE classes should take care of this kind of deal.
good points, at our facility, [OVRCCC] we race asphalt & carpet, elec touring being our largest class, we have split them into 3 'sub-classes'
'Sportsman' [novice]
Stock
Pro-Stock
each with its own 'breakout'
2 breakouts and you move up, the 2 'lower; classes run the same motor/batts,
the Pro-stock use a faster setup
therefore you race with other racers with the same or close to the same abilities,
we watch diligently for 'sandbaggers' also!!
If you continually win at stock why not move up?? is racing about getting better? or winning??
OR??
about having fun??
Thankx, Bill
11-10-2008, 11:18 AM
#8
I wanted to get some advice from some you guys out there. I am new to RC racing, started about 4 months ago;but grew up racing motocross and BMX.
Situation:
I have been racing at a local track down here, I really like the lay-out and the people. Naturally I run 1/8 sportman buggy, what I have found is there are a group of people that always run sportman buggy and always win. I was looking at the times yesterday after the 1st heat race and knowticed that these same 3 guys are turning laps as fast as most of the pros. Last night on went on line to look at race results a found that these guys have been running sportman and winning for about the last year. I brought it to the attention of track owners and he agreed with me. Also I have seen pros show up and run sportsman just because they wanted an easy trophy.
I am not trying to sound bitchy but for someone like myself that is new it is starting to become discourging. I was wondering how other tracks score or determine when a person would move up a class?
I pay 15.00 to race and just want a fair shot at a trophy racing against people close to my racing level. Everyone has been in my shoes and if I go and start making the wrong noise at the track I don't want to end up being the one that no one likes. Let me say this, when I have the skill to run with the pros I will.
Situation:
I have been racing at a local track down here, I really like the lay-out and the people. Naturally I run 1/8 sportman buggy, what I have found is there are a group of people that always run sportman buggy and always win. I was looking at the times yesterday after the 1st heat race and knowticed that these same 3 guys are turning laps as fast as most of the pros. Last night on went on line to look at race results a found that these guys have been running sportman and winning for about the last year. I brought it to the attention of track owners and he agreed with me. Also I have seen pros show up and run sportsman just because they wanted an easy trophy.
I am not trying to sound bitchy but for someone like myself that is new it is starting to become discourging. I was wondering how other tracks score or determine when a person would move up a class?
I pay 15.00 to race and just want a fair shot at a trophy racing against people close to my racing level. Everyone has been in my shoes and if I go and start making the wrong noise at the track I don't want to end up being the one that no one likes. Let me say this, when I have the skill to run with the pros I will.
11-10-2008, 11:36 AM
#9
I'm an ex BMX and MX guy too. BMX had novice, intermediate, expert, pro and so on - many levels. In most cases there, local track owners would move people up if there were enough entries. Now, if the RC track you are at have 8 guys and 3 are these "really good sportsmen" - then the owner may not want to run two separate classes since they'd then have groups of 3 and 5. But if they are running sportsman in large races and taking home dozens of trophys, something is up. I don't race at tracks now in RC which has weekly trophys - one track does small payouts from time to time for shop credit or next-week entry fee. But all racers are in the same class of "mod" for example. Some guys are very good while others are learning-hacks (like me) in their first or second year. Nobody around here in SE PA has a novice or sportsman class that much that I've seen. Once in a while, there will be a 3-5 person novice class with electric or gas 1/10th trucks where dads get their little guys running them.
Anyway - you may be able to work it out with the track owner by saying stuff like "a few of us want this resolved or we stop racing here..." - that makes him think in $$ signs and that helps get things done. Otherwise, he's got to consider the moderate-cheaters "locals who race a lot" and may even lean their way instead of yours. The $$ point in their general direction and the track owner is making more money on them than on the new guys. This is how it is sometimes and that's not a great position to be in as a track owner who pays more attention to 10 of his friends than 20-30 newcomers. Those kind of tracks do well in good times but lose a lot of people in bad times (of the economy or a lull in the hobby).
I imagine that 1/8th scale will have more interest in a sportsman class since the really good guys are "really really good" vs. newcomers. So, keep pushing for a fair sportsman class. However, until you can run times that are with 20% of the best guys there, you'll continue to have trouble. Really good sportsman drivers and mid-level pros should have lap times that are somewhat close by a couple seconds.
Anyway - you may be able to work it out with the track owner by saying stuff like "a few of us want this resolved or we stop racing here..." - that makes him think in $$ signs and that helps get things done. Otherwise, he's got to consider the moderate-cheaters "locals who race a lot" and may even lean their way instead of yours. The $$ point in their general direction and the track owner is making more money on them than on the new guys. This is how it is sometimes and that's not a great position to be in as a track owner who pays more attention to 10 of his friends than 20-30 newcomers. Those kind of tracks do well in good times but lose a lot of people in bad times (of the economy or a lull in the hobby).
I imagine that 1/8th scale will have more interest in a sportsman class since the really good guys are "really really good" vs. newcomers. So, keep pushing for a fair sportsman class. However, until you can run times that are with 20% of the best guys there, you'll continue to have trouble. Really good sportsman drivers and mid-level pros should have lap times that are somewhat close by a couple seconds.
11-10-2008, 12:22 PM
#10
More ideas
I like the idea of the breakout concept.
good points, at our facility, [OVRCCC] we race asphalt & carpet, elec touring being our largest class, we have split them into 3 'sub-classes'
'Sportsman' [novice]
Stock
Pro-Stock
each with its own 'breakout'
2 breakouts and you move up, the 2 'lower; classes run the same motor/batts,
the Pro-stock use a faster setup
therefore you race with other racers with the same or close to the same abilities,
we watch diligently for 'sandbaggers' also!!
If you continually win at stock why not move up?? is racing about getting better? or winning??
OR??
about having fun??
Thankx, Bill
'Sportsman' [novice]
Stock
Pro-Stock
each with its own 'breakout'
2 breakouts and you move up, the 2 'lower; classes run the same motor/batts,
the Pro-stock use a faster setup
therefore you race with other racers with the same or close to the same abilities,
we watch diligently for 'sandbaggers' also!!
If you continually win at stock why not move up?? is racing about getting better? or winning??
OR??
about having fun??
Thankx, Bill
11-10-2008, 01:04 PM
#11
Tech Adept
Based on experience, no owner or race director wants to be threatened. NEVER walk up to them and say "do this or i don't race". it doesn't put them in a good position. I know that nobody wants to be the one that complains but some times you have to. If you tell them your situation, they will listen. That is, basically, your race directors job.
I know you are sick of hearing this, but when you race with faster people you get faster... It's science. You'll get there, its only a matter of time.
Everyone sand bags. All you can really do is swear you won't be that guy.
Hope this helps
I know you are sick of hearing this, but when you race with faster people you get faster... It's science. You'll get there, its only a matter of time.
Everyone sand bags. All you can really do is swear you won't be that guy.
Hope this helps
11-10-2008, 04:13 PM
#12
Yeah, Talk.Talk not demand or threaten the track owner or race director,and go race, sooner or later the faster guys will get either bored or bumped, when I started, I raced sporto or novice, now I race expert locally, but still sign up sporto for big events, Now that may seem like sand bagging, if a D main finish is sandbagging. I bumped to expert locally when I was winning each week, there was no more challenge there, and I am faster because of it,the challenge is back, Some tracks run a series, and if you win a class in a series, you bump, otherwise, you can race where you want to, at large events sponsered drivers must race expert, so I race sporto, and yes, there are many guys that turn intermediate or expert laps, but I get to defend off "begginers" and race some fast laps with fast "sportsmen" drivers, If I start making A mains at these events, I will bump there to, but I am not mad cause a bunch of fast guys beat me..I am just gonna get faster, follow there lines, see why they are fast. In time, you can win the class, then you can decide if you want to bump, I was happy when a few guys that were faster than me bumped into expert, and yes, I started winning Sporto races, but guess what? When I moved up, they were there again, beating me again...Geeez it just never ends...Good thing these fella's are my buddies, that way they won't feel so bad when I start beating them!!!!
It's all good, Race for the Racin, the rest will fall into place! A few sayings that have ,belive it or not, made me faster are:
1. BREATH!
2. Slower is Faster!
3. To Finish First, First one Must Finish!
Monkey.
It's all good, Race for the Racin, the rest will fall into place! A few sayings that have ,belive it or not, made me faster are:
1. BREATH!
2. Slower is Faster!
3. To Finish First, First one Must Finish!
Monkey.
11-10-2008, 04:46 PM
#13
a thought
Based on experience, no owner or race director wants to be threatened. NEVER walk up to them and say "do this or i don't race". it doesn't put them in a good position. I know that nobody wants to be the one that complains but some times you have to. If you tell them your situation, they will listen. That is, basically, your race directors job.
I know you are sick of hearing this, but when you race with faster people you get faster... It's science. You'll get there, its only a matter of time.
Everyone sand bags. All you can really do is swear you won't be that guy.
Hope this helps
I know you are sick of hearing this, but when you race with faster people you get faster... It's science. You'll get there, its only a matter of time.
Everyone sand bags. All you can really do is swear you won't be that guy.
Hope this helps
Maybe I wasn't clear but I didn't go up and talk in threatening manner. I simply asked what the rules/guidelines were for running both classes. Like I said he totally agreed with me; he then said other people have also complained.
Personally before I spend $25 in gas and 15.00 entrance fee next time I would like to know things are equally fair.
I understand what you guys are saying about running with faster guys will help. However I can do that Mon-Fri and it wont cost me any money.
In BMX there are associations like the ABA, and motocross AMA that add structure to the tracks and races. Is there one in RC racing that does the same or is it only on the pro level.
11-10-2008, 04:53 PM
#14
Yeah, Talk.Talk not demand or threaten the track owner or race director,and go race, sooner or later the faster guys will get either bored or bumped, when I started, I raced sporto or novice, now I race expert locally, but still sign up sporto for big events, Now that may seem like sand bagging, if a D main finish is sandbagging. I bumped to expert locally when I was winning each week, there was no more challenge there, and I am faster because of it,the challenge is back, Some tracks run a series, and if you win a class in a series, you bump, otherwise, you can race where you want to, at large events sponsered drivers must race expert, so I race sporto, and yes, there are many guys that turn intermediate or expert laps, but I get to defend off "begginers" and race some fast laps with fast "sportsmen" drivers, If I start making A mains at these events, I will bump there to, but I am not mad cause a bunch of fast guys beat me..I am just gonna get faster, follow there lines, see why they are fast. In time, you can win the class, then you can decide if you want to bump, I was happy when a few guys that were faster than me bumped into expert, and yes, I started winning Sporto races, but guess what? When I moved up, they were there again, beating me again...Geeez it just never ends...Good thing these fella's are my buddies, that way they won't feel so bad when I start beating them!!!!
It's all good, Race for the Racing, the rest will fall into place! A few sayings that have ,believe it or not, made me faster are:
1. BREATH!
2. Slower is Faster!
3. To Finish First, First one Must Finish!
Monkey.
It's all good, Race for the Racing, the rest will fall into place! A few sayings that have ,believe it or not, made me faster are:
1. BREATH!
2. Slower is Faster!
3. To Finish First, First one Must Finish!
Monkey.
11-10-2008, 05:08 PM
#15
I think the "threatening" thing was based on me saying to talk to the track owner and say you want to see something done or you just wouldn't race there anymore (you and other who feel the same way).
The thing with BMX is there is some oversight in terms of local track owners and then regional directors. In ROAR, the national org relating to some aspects of RC, there just isn't enough enforcement - nor enough tracks running under strict ROAR guidelines. I'm only in my first racing season in RC but after my first year in BMX in the early 80s, I had seen how well they organized different classes. A novice could never beat the lower-experts - and so on. We did see heavy sandbaggers but usually only at big events where a novice would finish 100-yards ahead of their moto and also in the mains and you'd think "hey, something's wrong".
I just don't think ROAR management is pervasive. Our regional director had a hard time putting together a simple 4-race series in the fall this year for off-road. Pretty poor results (IMO). In BMX, there is ABA, NBL and (?) NBA among others. State directors, regional, national, etc. If you race at an ABA track, you use different rules than NBL in terms of points, qualifying for mains and so on. ROAR has some rules pertaining to car design, performance and so on. Doesn't seem to pertain to skills, though (not that I read the ROAR book yet). With racing, you kind of have to not expect to win much in your first few years. I think in terms of some racing activities, a lot of newcomers think "in a couple months, I'll dominate these guys..." - it just doesn't happen. Who wins the races at our local RC tracks? Usually guys who have been doing it for 5-10 years and maybe some newer younger guys who can practice after school a lot.
The thing with BMX is there is some oversight in terms of local track owners and then regional directors. In ROAR, the national org relating to some aspects of RC, there just isn't enough enforcement - nor enough tracks running under strict ROAR guidelines. I'm only in my first racing season in RC but after my first year in BMX in the early 80s, I had seen how well they organized different classes. A novice could never beat the lower-experts - and so on. We did see heavy sandbaggers but usually only at big events where a novice would finish 100-yards ahead of their moto and also in the mains and you'd think "hey, something's wrong".
I just don't think ROAR management is pervasive. Our regional director had a hard time putting together a simple 4-race series in the fall this year for off-road. Pretty poor results (IMO). In BMX, there is ABA, NBL and (?) NBA among others. State directors, regional, national, etc. If you race at an ABA track, you use different rules than NBL in terms of points, qualifying for mains and so on. ROAR has some rules pertaining to car design, performance and so on. Doesn't seem to pertain to skills, though (not that I read the ROAR book yet). With racing, you kind of have to not expect to win much in your first few years. I think in terms of some racing activities, a lot of newcomers think "in a couple months, I'll dominate these guys..." - it just doesn't happen. Who wins the races at our local RC tracks? Usually guys who have been doing it for 5-10 years and maybe some newer younger guys who can practice after school a lot.