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Old 07-30-2010, 10:39 PM
  #13891  
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Default Clearing a path to speed

Originally Posted by Hebiki
camper.

Chris: if I put one of those on my GT3, will it raise the ride height and CG?
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
As I stated earlier, it does not necessarily have to be open practice; if an open track has proven to be a problem, an easy way to minimize speed differentials while maximizing track time would be to have a fast and slow group. Two groups - maybe even three - would be far more efficient than seven groups. The dreaded GT1 vs Mini clash will never happen - these two are at opposite ends of the spectrum and one would be in the fast group and the other would be in the slow group. They will never be on track at the same time.

If you have just two or three groups, the driver's stand will be LESS crowded, on average, than having seven individual groups. People will find appropriate times to go up, rather than all rushing onto the driver's stand as a crowd once their particular session begins.

Having seven individual sessions is just over segmentation of the field. There will likely be more than 30 GT3 cars, and, based on recent races and last year's nationals, roughly ten or less GT1 cars. Yet the track time allotted to these two classes will be the same. So a huge >30 car GT3 group will be forced to run in a small 10 minute window and a small <10 GT1 group will run in another 10 minute window.

I'm not saying the current system has not worked well; I'm suggesting a fairly obvious improvement to the way the track is utilized in the limited time available. Plus, it's far easier to manage two or three groups (already grouped by speed) than it is to manage seven individual groups and make individual judgment calls as to whether or not a session should be canceled or combined. I'm not saying this will be a perfect solution to all problems, but I think it is a superior compromise. People will still complain, there will still be accidents, but on the whole, having fewer practice groups would be a more efficient and effective practice structure.
I think your "fairly obvious improvement" of your "superior compromise" are fantastic and you should be comended for your brillance. Lets see now, take those 30+ GT-3 cars you mention and since we want to keep speeds similar throw in the 40+ mini's and the 10-15 spec cars and you now have over 80+ cars battling for a chance on the track but you do have 30 minutes to do it. Oh yeah, and if you are a good driver, you will lap Novice/Spec cars at least 5-6 times in a five minute run. And even the fastest mini's will get in your way at least once or twice in that same five minutes but this will make for more open track times and cleaner laps. Has the Nobel Peace Prize for Quantum Physics been awarded yet this year ? Guess I am bored too.
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Old 07-30-2010, 11:10 PM
  #13893  
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Default Going into belaboring a point

Originally Posted by maxepower
If every racer shows common courtesy to each other by moving over, and lets the faster cars by, and the faster cars allow time for the slower cars to move out of the way by communicating to each other who is where and when they are coming up on another. For example, "red mini coming up on your right" then allow the mini to move and then pass carefully! In a perfect world this can happen but there are lots of racers with no patience or lake of experience (Max: did you really mean "lake of experience"? I think you've invented a fascinating new metaphor!) to accomplish this sharing of the track!
Therefore controlled practice is implemented! Nobody wants to break their car just before qualifying, no matter who is at fault!
Yeah, well, Max, you've tried that "red Mini coming up on your right" stuff with me in the middle of a race for the last time. Not moving over for you again, just because you think a red Mini is faster than a blue one.

I am guessing, Potato, that you've never been taken out in a open, uncontrolled practice before a big event by some jackwagon with more straightline speed than brain cells who thought they could take the sweeper flatout in a GT1 with an Audi TT body with the stock wing and way too much ride height.
Our old friend, Dave Beale (RIP), got severely taken out one year on a Friday by someone going the wrong way on the front straight. This person had a sedan on the track and was using the apron along the front straight to check their steering alignment (admittedly in the days before our classy setup tools), so as Dave's F1 came down the straight toward the esses (in those days, we also ran clockwise--remember, Fred? Good times...), his car got clocked by this person's testing of full throttle and poor alignment. Dave took his car off in pieces, and it was one of the few times I'd ever actually seen him mad.

So this is why so many of us insist on controlled practice. Also, we have to try to do something about not only the 30+ GT3 racers likely to be there, but the 40+ Mini drivers likely to be there. I don't really think that those two will share the stand well, though only because how can you possibly expect 70 or so drivers to all get a chance in 10 minutes. Perhaps we'll need a Drivers' Stand Nazi. "No driver's stand for you, one hour." The concern for "efficiency" is somewhat misplaced, as any real inefficiency is traded for a more manageable test and practice session. It is the responsibility of the driver/mechanic to tune his or her car so that they can go and run on the track when it is their turn; as Kevin accurately stated, if the car doesn't work after 4 or 5 laps, come in and resume work, don't keep running and hope the Track Fairies will magically make it better. If it does work, people should only do a 5-minute run and then pull in so someone else can have the space on the stand. If they can't get the car ready in the time in between, I don't know what could reasonably be done for them.
If seventy minutes seems too long to wait for a test, may I suggest a Nintendo DS? A book? Perhaps a lovely beverage? It might be practical to combine some classes, like GT1 and 2 together, and perhaps GT3 and Spec, due to the closeness of performance. Mini probably needs its own segment due to the sheer size of the group. F1 frankly needs its own segment, due to not only the difference in lap times but the tragic consequences every time one tangles with one of those big bullies in a sedan.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:48 AM
  #13894  
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WOW so much attitude from me just making a suggestion!

I may not have been clear enough. When I suggest grouping classes based on speed, I'm also advocating aggregating the session times. For example, if you had a slow and fast group, that would be one 35 minute slow group practice session, one 35 minute fast group practice session. This is in lieu of having seven 10 minute sessions. This is just a basic guideline. If there are only a few GT1 and GT2 cars, let them have shorter sessions, let the larger groups have longer sessions. Make the session durations proportional to the number of participants. Popular classes have more track time because there are more people who need to get on track. I'm not suggesting cramming everyone into a short 10 minute session.

Originally Posted by Tom Slick
It might be practical to combine some classes, like GT1 and 2 together, and perhaps GT3 and Spec, due to the closeness of performance. Mini probably needs its own segment due to the sheer size of the group. F1 frankly needs its own segment, due to not only the difference in lap times but the tragic consequences every time one tangles with one of those big bullies in a sedan.
I agree, this is pretty much exactly my point!! I wonder if people have even read my complete posts! What you've suggested is four groups, definitely an improvement over seven groups.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:50 AM
  #13895  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
I think your "fairly obvious improvement" of your "superior compromise" are fantastic and you should be comended for your brillance. Lets see now, take those 30+ GT-3 cars you mention and since we want to keep speeds similar throw in the 40+ mini's and the 10-15 spec cars and you now have over 80+ cars battling for a chance on the track but you do have 30 minutes to do it. Oh yeah, and if you are a good driver, you will lap Novice/Spec cars at least 5-6 times in a five minute run. And even the fastest mini's will get in your way at least once or twice in that same five minutes but this will make for more open track times and cleaner laps. Has the Nobel Peace Prize for Quantum Physics been awarded yet this year ? Guess I am bored too.
Wow they give the Nobel Peace Price for Physics? :
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:21 AM
  #13896  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
Yeah, well, Max, you've tried that "red Mini coming up on your right" stuff with me in the middle of a race for the last time. Not moving over for you again, just because you think a red Mini is faster than a blue one.

I am guessing, Potato, that you've never been taken out in a open, uncontrolled practice before a big event by some jackwagon with more straightline speed than brain cells who thought they could take the sweeper flatout in a GT1 with an Audi TT body with the stock wing and way too much ride height.
Our old friend, Dave Beale (RIP), got severely taken out one year on a Friday by someone going the wrong way on the front straight. This person had a sedan on the track and was using the apron along the front straight to check their steering alignment (admittedly in the days before our classy setup tools), so as Dave's F1 came down the straight toward the esses (in those days, we also ran clockwise--remember, Fred? Good times...), his car got clocked by this person's testing of full throttle and poor alignment. Dave took his car off in pieces, and it was one of the few times I'd ever actually seen him mad.

So this is why so many of us insist on controlled practice. Also, we have to try to do something about not only the 30+ GT3 racers likely to be there, but the 40+ Mini drivers likely to be there. I don't really think that those two will share the stand well, though only because how can you possibly expect 70 or so drivers to all get a chance in 10 minutes. Perhaps we'll need a Drivers' Stand Nazi. "No driver's stand for you, one hour." The concern for "efficiency" is somewhat misplaced, as any real inefficiency is traded for a more manageable test and practice session. It is the responsibility of the driver/mechanic to tune his or her car so that they can go and run on the track when it is their turn; as Kevin accurately stated, if the car doesn't work after 4 or 5 laps, come in and resume work, don't keep running and hope the Track Fairies will magically make it better. If it does work, people should only do a 5-minute run and then pull in so someone else can have the space on the stand. If they can't get the car ready in the time in between, I don't know what could reasonably be done for them.
If seventy minutes seems too long to wait for a test, may I suggest a Nintendo DS? A book? Perhaps a lovely beverage? It might be practical to combine some classes, like GT1 and 2 together, and perhaps GT3 and Spec, due to the closeness of performance. Mini probably needs its own segment due to the sheer size of the group. F1 frankly needs its own segment, due to not only the difference in lap times but the tragic consequences every time one tangles with one of those big bullies in a sedan.
Tom,
I agree F1 needs it's own segment, these F104's as you well know are a very "finicky" car and have a very narrow "sweet" spot for good performance?
It would be a shame as what Dave Beale went thru to have your car destroyed by a unfortunate accident just before the "Biggest Race" of the year. it's tuff to navigate thru 37 minis going down the front straight in a 37 car draft all going into the sweeper? I would bet your car will put back into the kit form in the sweeper? I am all for some type of "CONTROLLED PRACTICE"
Has there been an official statement from Fred yet on when practice will be open for the week before the Nats? I know it the past few years it's been Thurs. and Friday with some controlled practice Sat morning?
Steve.
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Old 07-31-2010, 07:32 AM
  #13897  
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I guess my question would be, why mess with something that has worked well for a long time. Fred and crew have run a 1st class event for a lot of years. Somehow everyone gets their share of track time and yes there are occasional incidents, but for the most part everyone plays nice.
This business of people wanting to always change something, whether it be rules, race format or whatever is getting old. Accept it for what it is or don't participate, after all, no one is holding you at gunpoint to race
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
Yeah, if by "opportune" you mean an uncontrolled track full of stressed-out F1 drivers struggling for grip, GT drivers struggling for speed and Mini drivers struggling not to laugh out loud at the others. Me, I just struggle--esp. as I have to work all week and can't dial in like youse. Jealous? Moi?
Although my wife calls it a vacation, why is it when I am done, I need a vacation?

About last year I stand corrected, Thursday and Friday were controlled practice. . .I dunno, we was no there. . .
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:52 PM
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hmmm... I have always been a fan of standing in line so not to be the 11th driver on the drivers stand and also like the use of that little thing called throttle control. It is the Nats and people should be aware of not holding up the faster cars, punting the slower cars and knowing what Starbucks drink Fred likes. . .
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:11 AM
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I was at my local Wallgreens getting some photos developed and while I was waiting for the prints, I found something that may be of interest to all of you. They have torqouise (light blue) sharpies in stock and are on sale individually for 99 cents. I guess they stocked up on back to school stuff and have a lot of sharpie colors on sale. Typically, this color is only available as a part of a set. This sharpie color closely matches Tamiya blue anodizing and can be used to touch-up blue aluminum or to "paint" parts. I hope your local store has them in stock because these things are dialed.

Oh yeah...my avatar says hi to Kevin
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Potato
WOW so much attitude from me just making a suggestion!

I may not have been clear enough. When I suggest grouping classes based on speed, I'm also advocating aggregating the session times. For example, if you had a slow and fast group, that would be one 35 minute slow group practice session, one 35 minute fast group practice session. This is in lieu of having seven 10 minute sessions. This is just a basic guideline. If there are only a few GT1 and GT2 cars, let them have shorter sessions, let the larger groups have longer sessions. Make the session durations proportional to the number of participants. Popular classes have more track time because there are more people who need to get on track. I'm not suggesting cramming everyone into a short 10 minute session.



I agree, this is pretty much exactly my point!! I wonder if people have even read my complete posts! What you've suggested is four groups, definitely an improvement over seven groups.
Yes, you have been clear enough and you taped the target to your back by "suggesting" ideas that have been tried, do not work well for this race and saying how "obvious" your ideas are better. You keep claiming effencies and seperating by "fast and slow cars". So, do you have the talent to tell which drivers are fast and slow to seperate into classes ? I think not.

So, I think based on your theory to increase efficency, lets just have two groups, fast and slow and switch every 30 minutes. Hopefully when someone with more speed than talent takes out a car that has slower straight line speed, we will see you spending precious practice time repairing your car and not someone who is okay with the current controlled practice rules.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rtypec
I was at my local Wallgreens getting some photos developed and while I was waiting for the prints, I found something that may be of interest to all of you. They have torqouise (light blue) sharpies in stock and are on sale individually for 99 cents. I guess they stocked up on back to school stuff and have a lot of sharpie colors on sale. Typically, this color is only available as a part of a set. This sharpie color closely matches Tamiya blue anodizing and can be used to touch-up blue aluminum or to "paint" parts. I hope your local store has them in stock because these things are dialed.

Oh yeah...my avatar says hi to Kevin
Sweet ! Oh. I was refering to Miku.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
WOW so much attitude from me just making a suggestion!

I may not have been clear enough. I'm not suggesting cramming everyone into a short 10 minute session.

I agree,Tom, this is pretty much exactly my point!! I wonder if people have even read my complete posts! What you've suggested is four groups, definitely an improvement over seven groups.
So you agree, then, that uncontrolled practice would be bad, BAD. Whaddya know, we have a compromise. And yes, I have read your composite posts. My lips even got tired from it.
YAY! We agree on something. Let's go have a lovely beverage.
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:32 PM
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I was scanning the latest Nats rules, and was curious about the GT4 motors. Do we bring our own, or will the same buy it during sign-up rule be in play where we pick the motor up at the track? I didn't see that bit in the motor rules for GT4, so my assumption is BYOM. If that's the case, will the RPM limits apply?
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:36 PM
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I'm all for box stock motors.
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