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Old 07-30-2010, 12:47 PM
  #13876  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
wow... really?
Yes, really.

There are seven different classes:
GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, F1, MINI, SPEC

At 10 minutes per round, that's 70 minutes a cycle.
That means, for a driver to make a run, make a few changes, he'll have to wait an hour just to get the opportunity to test those changes.
This is a horribly inefficient utilization of time.

This is analogous to when (real) F1 had single-lap qualifying - it took an hour just to get through the field, and each driver only got a single lap!
Now in (real) F1 there's an open track for qualifying and, while the overall time for qualifying is still only an hour, drivers get way more track time (and if they complain about traffic it's because they all try to go out at the last second when the track is the fastest. We're talking about practice and this isn't a problem).

While an open track may run the risk of mixing slow and fast cars, a way to mitigate this would be to divide all classes into two groups - slow and fast. I think this two-group arrangement may be an appropriate compromise between a completely open track and strict class-by-class control and affords much of the benefits of having an open track.

An open track or two-group structure would not have the waves of cars all flooding the track at the start of a session, slowly fading into empty track, then have another wave of cars as the next group starts. This structure would also enable people to test and tune much quicker - enabling them to make test runs and adjustments in quick succession - something I believe those from out of town would appreciate.

The benefits of an open track or a two-group structure outweigh its disadvantages when compared to a highly segmented seven-group controlled practice structure.




Yes I'm bored today
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
...The benefits of an open track or a two-group structure outweigh its disadvantages when compared to a highly segmented seven-group controlled practice structure. Yes I'm bored today
We have to run controlled practice at Jackson R/C in NJ as well because of the massive speed differential from Mini to Nitro, and the general grouping you suggest does indeed work well.

As an example, we've grouped VTA, Mini and F1 together at a trophy event that also had ROAR touring cars from 17.5 through to Nitro (slower to faster). Posting the exact practice times in 10-15 minute chunks has worked well, but the announcer needs to stay on top of that schedule b'c racers will always try to take another few minutes beyond their allocation.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
Yes, really.

There are seven different classes:
GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, F1, MINI, SPEC

At 10 minutes per round, that's 70 minutes a cycle.
That means, for a driver to make a run, make a few changes, he'll have to wait an hour just to get the opportunity to test those changes.
This is a horribly inefficient utilization of time.

This is analogous to when (real) F1 had single-lap qualifying - it took an hour just to get through the field, and each driver only got a single lap!
Now in (real) F1 there's an open track for qualifying and, while the overall time for qualifying is still only an hour, drivers get way more track time (and if they complain about traffic it's because they all try to go out at the last second when the track is the fastest. We're talking about practice and this isn't a problem).

While an open track may run the risk of mixing slow and fast cars, a way to mitigate this would be to divide all classes into two groups - slow and fast. I think this two-group arrangement may be an appropriate compromise between a completely open track and strict class-by-class control and affords much of the benefits of having an open track.

An open track or two-group structure would not have the waves of cars all flooding the track at the start of a session, slowly fading into empty track, then have another wave of cars as the next group starts. This structure would also enable people to test and tune much quicker - enabling them to make test runs and adjustments in quick succession - something I believe those from out of town would appreciate.

The benefits of an open track or a two-group structure outweigh its disadvantages when compared to a highly segmented seven-group controlled practice structure.




Yes I'm bored today
What do you do when 30+ try and get on the drivers stand at one time...
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonC
What do you do when 30+ try and get on the drivers stand at one time...
You mean like when the 10 min GT3 controlled practice session starts and alllll the 30+ GT3 guys go onto the drivers stand at the beginning? What I'd do is, one day, bored, I go on rctech and post a suggestion to reduce or eliminate the segmentation of the practice schedule.

Last edited by Potato; 07-30-2010 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonC
What do you do when 30+ try and get on the drivers stand at one time...
camper.


Last edited by Hebiki; 07-30-2010 at 02:02 PM. Reason: added image
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
camper.

Sponcerd by Colman.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:06 PM
  #13882  
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Interesting idea, not sure how it would work, and how easy it is to manage. I know what it is like to be in a mini, and get punted in the middle of the straight by an out of control GT1 car, and ending up with a broken car sitting in the sweeper, to get hit but 3 other people I like running with a group of cars the same speed
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
You mean like when the 10 min GT3 controlled practice session starts and alllll the 30+ GT3 guys go onto the drivers stand at the beginning? What I'd do is, one day, bored, I go on rctech and post a suggestion to reduce or eliminate the segmentation of the practice schedule.
Now this will be the 4th year in a row that I will miss the nats, but at every other nats that I have attended, controlled practice worked very well, as long as people are not greedy and get off the track when they are supposed to . There will always be speed differentials even within the same class, but you know what? its a great chance to work on traffic skills, setting up cars for the pass, figuring out where you can pass and where you cant. You know real racing stuff, not just hot lapping the track.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
Interesting idea, not sure how it would work, and how easy it is to manage. I know what it is like to be in a mini, and get punted in the middle of the straight by an out of control GT1 car, and ending up with a broken car sitting in the sweeper, to get hit but 3 other people I like running with a group of cars the same speed
+1
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
So a Canon Porsche

and a Benetton BMW?
Yes, no and maybe.

Tom Slick - You and Troy are in the right direction on one but I will not say which. Maybe I will save time and just do one. Maybe a Canetton PorMW ?

Last edited by Kevin CBR; 07-30-2010 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Potato
What's the point of controlled practice? It seems like a horribly inefficient use of the track. You'll have periods of absolutely empty track, periods where there's one or two cars on track (often towards the end of a session)... then at the beginning of a new round a HUGE surge of cars all jammed together trying to test, run back to the pits and make a quick change and hope that the session isn't over by the time they rush back to test out the change.

Just leave the track open practice, or have, perhaps two groups by car laptimes: slow and fast.

Example:
Group1: Mini + spec + whatever has a slower lap time
Group2: GT1, GT2 etc... faster lap times

Make it so that the groups are approximately the same size so the track is used evenly, and the cars are of similar speed.

OR (what I think is the best solution) just leave the track open practice.

Artificially grouping the cars by speed is no good because, even in groups with faster cars there will be people struggling with their setups, spinning out etc - it's not good to see a car spin out, get hit by a far faster car of the same class and cause a problem for both drivers. For the guys struggling with their setup, being forced to run with the really fast guys makes it difficult to dial in your own car when you're spending the whole time watching for and jumping out of the way of quicker approaching cars. For the fast guys it's frustrating when you're on a fast lap, the car ahead spins out, and you T-bone him, possibly breaking parts on either car in the process. Nobody wants to see this happen, but with the controlled practice, drivers are forced to run all at the same time, rather than use their judgment as to the most appropriate time to make their runs.
It sounds like you have not tried to run a GT-2 or GT-1 car on the track at the same time as mini's, F1's and some spec/ novice racers. The "struggles" you described are made worse when you have cars with double or more the straight line speed on the straight at the same time. I would rather take my chance with controlled practice and cars of similar caliber, not necessairly drivers. Plus, there is a limit to drivers on the stand. If you think you need to make lots of changes to your car, go out and run 4-5 laps, make a change and jump out for a few more. If your car is not handling in the first 1-2 minutes, driving it another 3-4 more minutes will not make it any better.

Plus, Fred is there on Thursday and Friday. If he sees only 2-3 cars running on the track, he can end the session early as he has done before or even combine one or two classes if there are just a few cars out to practice. In fact, there have been past times when "open practice" got changed to controlled practice because of the carnage and how "uncontrolled" open practice became.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
It sounds like you have not tried to run a GT-2 or GT-1 car on the track at the same time as mini's, F1's and some spec/ novice racers. The "struggles" you described are made worse when you have cars with double or more the straight line speed on the straight at the same time. I would rather take my chance with controlled practice and cars of similar caliber, not necessairly drivers. Plus, there is a limit to drivers on the stand. If you think you need to make lots of changes to your car, go out and run 4-5 laps, make a change and jump out for a few more. If your car is not handling in the first 1-2 minutes, driving it another 3-4 more minutes will not make it any better.

Plus, Fred is there on Thursday and Friday. If he sees only 2-3 cars running on the track, he can end the session early as he has done before or even combine one or two classes if there are just a few cars out to practice. In fact, there have been past times when "open practice" got changed to controlled practice because of the carnage and how "uncontrolled" open practice became.
As I stated earlier, it does not necessarily have to be open practice; if an open track has proven to be a problem, an easy way to minimize speed differentials while maximizing track time would be to have a fast and slow group. Two groups - maybe even three - would be far more efficient than seven groups. The dreaded GT1 vs Mini clash will never happen - these two are at opposite ends of the spectrum and one would be in the fast group and the other would be in the slow group. They will never be on track at the same time.

If you have just two or three groups, the driver's stand will be LESS crowded, on average, than having seven individual groups. People will find appropriate times to go up, rather than all rushing onto the driver's stand as a crowd once their particular session begins.

Having seven individual sessions is just over segmentation of the field. There will likely be more than 30 GT3 cars, and, based on recent races and last year's nationals, roughly ten or less GT1 cars. Yet the track time allotted to these two classes will be the same. So a huge >30 car GT3 group will be forced to run in a small 10 minute window and a small <10 GT1 group will run in another 10 minute window.

I'm not saying the current system has not worked well; I'm suggesting a fairly obvious improvement to the way the track is utilized in the limited time available. Plus, it's far easier to manage two or three groups (already grouped by speed) than it is to manage seven individual groups and make individual judgment calls as to whether or not a session should be canceled or combined. I'm not saying this will be a perfect solution to all problems, but I think it is a superior compromise. People will still complain, there will still be accidents, but on the whole, having fewer practice groups would be a more efficient and effective practice structure.

Last edited by Potato; 07-30-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
It sounds like you have not tried to run a GT-2 or GT-1 car on the track at the same time as mini's, F1's and some spec/ novice racers. The "struggles" you described are made worse when you have cars with double or more the straight line speed on the straight at the same time. I would rather take my chance with controlled practice and cars of similar caliber, not necessairly drivers. Plus, there is a limit to drivers on the stand. If you think you need to make lots of changes to your car, go out and run 4-5 laps, make a change and jump out for a few more. If your car is not handling in the first 1-2 minutes, driving it another 3-4 more minutes will not make it any better.

Plus, Fred is there on Thursday and Friday. If he sees only 2-3 cars running on the track, he can end the session early as he has done before or even combine one or two classes if there are just a few cars out to practice. In fact, there have been past times when "open practice" got changed to controlled practice because of the carnage and how "uncontrolled" open practice became.
I believe the key to getting in good practice regardless of conflicting speeds is only allowing no more than 10 cars on the track at any given time.
Yes, there will be very fast and very slow cars on the track at the same time but every Sat. we manage to get through the day without any major issues.
If every racers show common courtesy to each other by moving over and let the faster cars by and the faster cars allowing time for the slower cars to move out of the way by communicating to each other who is where and when they are coming up on another.
For example, " red mini coming up on your right" then allow the mini to move and them pass carefully! In a perfect world this can happen but there are lots of racers with no patience or lake of experience to accomplish this sharing of the track!
Therefore controlled practice is implemented! Nobody wants to break their car just before qualifying, no matter who is at falult!
Common sense race practices and coutesy is the answer if everyone from novice to expert can work together! Good practice time is possible!
Just my 2$
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:17 PM
  #13889  
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Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
Interesting idea, not sure how it would work, and how easy it is to manage. I know what it is like to be in a mini, and get punted in the middle of the straight by an out of control GT1 car, and ending up with a broken car sitting in the sweeper, to get hit but 3 other people I like running with a group of cars the same speed
Originally Posted by maxepower
I believe the key to getting in good practice regardless of conflicting speeds is only allowing no more than 10 cars on the track at any given time.
Yes, there will be very fast and very slow cars on the track at the same time but every Sat. we manage to get through the day without any major issues.
If every racers show common courtesy to each other by moving over and let the faster cars by and the faster cars allowing time for the slower cars to move out of the way by communicating to each other who is where and when they are coming up on another.
For example, " red mini coming up on your right" then allow the mini to move and them pass carefully! In a perfect world this can happen but there are lots of racers with no patience or lake of experience to accomplish this sharing of the track!
Therefore controlled practice is implemented! Nobody wants to break their car just before qualifying, no matter who is at falult!
Common sense race practices and coutesy is the answer if everyone from novice to expert can work together! Good practice time is possible!
Just my 2$
and if you have only 10 people on the stand at the same time, you get 10 minis out there with 4000mah packs, then they can run for 45 minutes.
So even running 10 at a time is some sort of a controlled situation even if it is a mix of classes. Then it gets even more controlled when you restrict it to 5 minutes and force everyone off the stand, and get a new group in.

So any way that manages the racers and the time, is still "controlled" practice
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:15 PM
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Reading the past topic makes me feel Neil Rabara just started this. Can we move on and talk about why this thread is called "Tamiya Championship Series" and not "I wanna be Fred Medel" thread? (Oh my, hear I go again, sorry!)

See you guys at T/A for some late practice! I'm looking forward to see my paypals.
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