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Old 02-17-2010, 08:12 PM
  #12736  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
If you were to buy one and listen to Doc on how to gear it you wouldnt be over geared hence you would not burn it up. You say you dont replace the magnets, are you implying that someone out there does?
Too bad you wont buy a Red Dot, you dont know what your missin!
Each track is different on ratio, there is no 1 magic ratio that works on all tracks like mini.. Pushing the car faster, dropping ratio is part of the game.
There is that potential with magnets, to me opening any 540j can period is out of bounds. Don't need to point fingers, eventually the rules will get mandated to eliminate the tricksters and silver massagers.
Red Dots, I am not missin much. . .



Originally Posted by OSherman
maybe you should keep your commplimentary hopup to lube your silvercan with.. thats gotta help for a few RPMs.. no?

Never tried milk... hmmm might have to bench test that one and compare it to my other mixes.
I thought chocolate milk was a good bushing buster....
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:27 PM
  #12737  
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Originally Posted by robk
Most of the time you lose RPM from what I have seen. I don't pay attention to how the amp draw fluctuates, but I can't imagine that going up unless the motor is bound up or having other problems. At least that is how stock motors always were.
Well proven at Frederick and Trackside last year, RPM goes up when a silvercan is hot!!!! People started failing post tech and racers said they knew the motor is not over the limit . After letting motors cool for ten minutes,they were fine . RPM increase was 100 to 200.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:31 PM
  #12738  
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
Each track is different on ratio, there is no 1 magic ratio that works on all tracks like mini.. Pushing the car faster, dropping ratio is part of the game.
There is that potential with magnets, to me opening any 540j can period is out of bounds. Don't need to point fingers, eventually the rules will get mandated to eliminate the tricksters and silver massagers.
Red Dots, I am not missin much. . .





Never tried milk... hmmm might have to bench test that one and compare it to my other mixes.
I thought chocolate milk was a good bushing buster....
You dont always have to gear by ratio, you can adjust according to temp, but there are baseline ratios that will get you in the ball park , but whatever dude, dont know what you got against Doc and what he does, but I think you are making some assumptions and drawing conclusions from them
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:47 PM
  #12739  
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Originally Posted by Ray k
Well proven at Frederick and Trackside last year, RPM goes up when a silvercan is hot!!!! People started failing post tech and racers said they knew the motor is not over the limit . After letting motors cool for ten minutes,they were fine . RPM increase was 100 to 200.
I'm talking more dirty motors. A couple runs and the rpm goes down. I understand a hot motor revs more...hot magnets too. I guess I didn't read the straight off the track part.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:14 AM
  #12740  
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Not to assume that everyone does'nt know this already but if you begin to break in the motor and dyno it every 5 minutes during the process you can stop the process when you achieve the safe RPM area you are looking for. Meaning the brushes don't need to be seated fully. Anything over 500 rpm between the motors will give equal drivers an advantage in my opinion and so the motors I will be running are in the 11,400 - 12,200 range I dont think I need to be right at the limit. I would also like to add that this rule is to simply keep the competition even and reinforce to people out there that you don't have to spend $50 (including shipping) from Doc on a motor to be competitive. I have never purchased a Red Dot but have had the pleasure of running it in my car and I have also run someone elses motors and they seem to be the same in performance on the track. Long story longer this rule is a good rule and will bring back a little of the cost effectivness back to the class. So whats the verdict? Is Tamiya going to enforce this rule at all of the Regional events or is this merely a suggestion and its up to the host site track coordinator guy to decide if they will utilize this rule?

This message sponsored by - RED DOT Motor Works " When too much horsepower is just enough"
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:19 AM
  #12741  
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Doc doesn't need defending, he can defend himself, but why is he getting so much animosity? I remember the days (not long ago) when the fixed gearing classes (mini, spec) had cars passing other cars on the straight like they were standing still. Doc simply let everyone have that speed and brought parity back to silver can racing. The big issue everyone seems to have is the cost.

Ok, so people are getting bent out of shape because of an extra $25? ($45 for a red dot vs $20 for a silver can.) These are the same people who have $300 mini's (with all of the hopups, including all the aluminum, titanium, and graphite they can get.) These are the same people that double stuffed their tires to get an advantage? These are the same people who will put ceramic bearings into a mini that cost more than the mini itself?

Pu-leez.

Doc offered to level the field by donating motors for tcs races (FREE) That was rejected, so what is supposed to happen? Doc is supposed to stop selling motors because some racers whine since they lost their edge?

The obvious solution to all of this is to simply spec the hobbywing system ($70 for a motor, esc, and programming card.) This way everyone is equal. But wait, how will people get an advantage then?

Back to the cost. Doc is charging $25 to set up your motor. Trinity used to charge $15 extra for their "tuned motors" where they simply changed the brushes and springs and included a dyno printout (cost them next to nothing because the original springs and brushes were never used.) Why is this so unfair, unless everyone thinks doc should donate his time?

Having top level racers race mini and complain about the red dot motors is not as bad as those same racers racing their $300 mini's against box stock newbie's.

I am now off my soapbox.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:24 AM
  #12742  
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Originally Posted by robk
I'm talking more dirty motors. A couple runs and the rpm goes down. I understand a hot motor revs more...hot magnets too. I guess I didn't read the straight off the track part.
I figured that what you meant,but wanted everyone to know that RPM comes up after a run.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:35 AM
  #12743  
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Originally Posted by billjacobs
Pu-leez.
+1 Bill
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:20 AM
  #12744  
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Originally Posted by robk
Thanks Fred. This will allow guys to do a little break in and "just run it".

The nice part is those "doggy" practice motors may come in handy as they break in...
Don't forget to bring my SILVER CAN lookalike brushless 13.5 motor, OK?
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:28 AM
  #12745  
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Indeed, if your motor is very close to an RPM limit, then the heat of a race (Especially on a hot day) will push the motor over the edge. After it cools down, the RPM drops again because the lubricant in the bushings cools and thickens. Unless you're not running a bushing oil, I guess. And the bushings themselves contract after heat expansion.
You know, it's just like minimum weight limits. Build and ballast your car too close to the limit, and it can change as much as 20 grams when going through tech just because of the weight difference between two sets of tires, or different body pins, or a different battery. But you'd swear the car was above the minimum before!
Solution: don't build your car so close to the weight limit, to allow for these differences; and don't set up your motor so close to an RPM maximum, and the heat quotient won't put you over the limit afterwards. Also, you won't have to sandbag your way down the straight like a racer had to do at TA a few years ago during a qualifying race. And let's face it, you're not going to come in 7th in an A-main just because you were 200 RPM down on the winner. Even in Mini.
I'm just saying...

Originally Posted by Ray k
Well proven at Frederick and Trackside last year, RPM goes up when a silvercan is hot!!!! People started failing post tech and racers said they knew the motor is not over the limit . After letting motors cool for ten minutes,they were fine . RPM increase was 100 to 200.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:48 PM
  #12746  
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Originally Posted by billjacobs
Doc doesn't need defending, he can defend himself, but why is he getting so much animosity? I remember the days (not long ago) when the fixed gearing classes (mini, spec) had cars passing other cars on the straight like they were standing still. Doc simply let everyone have that speed and brought parity back to silver can racing. The big issue everyone seems to have is the cost.

Ok, so people are getting bent out of shape because of an extra $25? ($45 for a red dot vs $20 for a silver can.) These are the same people who have $300 mini's (with all of the hopups, including all the aluminum, titanium, and graphite they can get.) These are the same people that double stuffed their tires to get an advantage? These are the same people who will put ceramic bearings into a mini that cost more than the mini itself?

Pu-leez.

Doc offered to level the field by donating motors for tcs races (FREE) That was rejected, so what is supposed to happen? Doc is supposed to stop selling motors because some racers whine since they lost their edge?

The obvious solution to all of this is to simply spec the hobbywing system ($70 for a motor, esc, and programming card.) This way everyone is equal. But wait, how will people get an advantage then?

Back to the cost. Doc is charging $25 to set up your motor. Trinity used to charge $15 extra for their "tuned motors" where they simply changed the brushes and springs and included a dyno printout (cost them next to nothing because the original springs and brushes were never used.) Why is this so unfair, unless everyone thinks doc should donate his time?

Having top level racers race mini and complain about the red dot motors is not as bad as those same racers racing their $300 mini's against box stock newbie's.

I am now off my soapbox.
It was a damn good soapbox...
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:05 PM
  #12747  
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Originally Posted by billjacobs
Having top level racers race mini and complain about the red dot motors is not as bad as those same racers racing their $300 mini's against box stock newbie's.
I tend to agree with this. I just wish they would let F1 run brushless, as it it's more of an upper level class than mini or GT3.

After it IS F1
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:23 PM
  #12748  
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Originally Posted by robk
I tend to agree with this. I just wish they would let F1 run brushless, as it it's more of an upper level class than mini or GT3.

After it IS F1
I tend to agree with this
Maybe next year ?
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:44 PM
  #12749  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
You dont always have to gear by ratio, you can adjust according to temp, but there are baseline ratios that will get you in the ball park , but whatever dude, dont know what you got against Doc and what he does, but I think you are making some assumptions and drawing conclusions from them
Dude.... where in my post did I say I was "against" doc?
Did I say anything to that effect?

Just because I am NOT a lemming and fall in line like everybody else in buying a motor, that people are not willing to spend the time on prepping it, does not mean I am against Doc. Whatever it is Red dot, white dot or pink dot, my feelings are the same. I will never own one.

If FMW's rules go full bore in 2011, there is no point in buying a Red Dot. Is it a personal attack on Doc, no. It is a way to bring in cost control on a class that has gotten away from what it should be, YES!

You have bought 3 in the past year for 1 race. For the price of 3 I can have 9 motors sitting on my bench to work on and make every bit as good. Nobody builds my cars, tires, shocks, batteries, bearings and motors. If they did that would be my weakest link on the track.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:52 PM
  #12750  
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I bought one motor from Doc for my mini at Frederick tcs last year. It still runs fine and I placed 2nd overall at the event with it. I think I cleaned it once and I still placed in front of people who had way more power than I. Sure I could have gone over it every run to get more power but I didnt feel the need. I am using it again this year...
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