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Old 02-17-2010, 09:38 AM
  #12721  
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Hi,

It seems there is some ambiguity regarding the use of the word minimum here. Numerically, stating that the RPM limits must be at a minimum of 12.5K / 18K would argue for host sites imposing limits that are greater than those values (as Ray K posted - e.g. Coliseum limit of 15K) However, the wording in this posts suggests that Fred intended the host sites be required to have RPM limits that are at least (or, at a minimum) as restrictive as 12.5K / 18K, and could only be lower than those targets (although, as Fred points out, this might not be advisable). Could we get some clarification? Thanks.

-Andy

Originally Posted by FMW
At this time I don't see why a host site may want to make these values lower. As it is, based on what I've tested, 12,500 gets really close once you seat the brushes in. Also remember, you have to pass the 7.2 test too. Comm drops will rise the amp draw, so you might want to be careful using those chemicals

Last edited by adavid; 02-17-2010 at 09:40 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:07 AM
  #12722  
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Originally Posted by GREGK
5.0 Volts
The 540-J motor may not exceed 12,500 rpm and 1.2 amps

7.2 Volts
The 540-J motor may not exceed 18,000 rpm and 1.2 amps


These numbers seem awfully low I break in my motors with com drops and get more than 1.2 amps at 3 volts!
thats the reason WHY the rule was created.. so "no break-in techniques" will have to be used.

(digs around for his brushed esc)
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:36 AM
  #12723  
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Wow. Took me a couple of hours to read and respond to all of the e-mails that showed up last night and this morning.

First off, I'd like to thank the many, many friends and fellow racers who expressed their concern over the impact that Fred's message might have on the financial condition of Red Dot Motors. Rest assured that we are fine and business is good. The US market actually represents a fairly small segment of our sales worldwide (as the song goes, "We're Big in Japan" ), and racers in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa appreciate and have embraced the philosophy behind our products: reliable, consistent horsepower available to every racer who chooses to run a silver can.

Second, let's be clear that I do not consider this an attack or vendetta by Fred, Tamiya, or the TCS against me personally or Red Dot Motors. I've known Fred a long time, respect him immensely, appreciate his hard work in keeping the TCS series the BEST IN THE WORLD, and know in my heart that- while we do not agree on all matters- he is really only trying to do what he feels is the right thing.

Third, what has not been previously publicized is that last year at the Nats, in an attempt to completely kill any motor controversy, I approached Fred and offered to supply matched silver can blind draw handout motors to each 2010 TCS regional event AT NO CHARGE. You heard that right- Red Dot was willing to pay for matched handouts for all silver can competitors free of charge for the entire year. I don't know why Fred elected not to pursue that route, but there you have it. We love the TCS, we support the TCS, and we'll do whatever we can to keep it the great series it has become.

Finally, I believe there will be problems enforcing and living with the thresholds as written. Our testing- over literally hundreds and hundreds of silver can motors & under controlled conditions- indicate that somewhere between 83 and 87% of the latest crop of Johnson 540J's will exceed 12,500 RPM after 3 to 10 five minute runs. The same motors will exceed 1.2 amps in virtually every case even if the RPM's do not exceed that figure. That's not anecdotal, it's not just opinion, it's not beer talk & it's not urban legend, it's fact, pure and simple. So...better hope you've got a handful of new motors for any 12,500 TCS event you plan on attending.

Regardless (and if you've read this whole thing, a big WHEW! for you), Red Dot Motors will still be attending the events we'd previously planned (sorry, Omaha & Aliso), our motors will still be fully compliant with whatever rules are in place for the event, and we'l still be there to have FUN.

Which is what this is all about, last time I checked. Again, thanks to all.
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:05 PM
  #12724  
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Let me start with this -

14. Motor RPM Limits will be imposed to match out of the box performance. RPM numbers TBD.
15. It is forbidden to crank the timing on the 540-J motor physically or through the use of rare earth magnets.

So any thing over 13,500 is in violation of this rule and please don't tell me other wise I have enough of my own research to speak with a litlle knowledge and that following the rules there is no way to attain those types of RPM without breaking the rules. I respect what Doc does and the service he provides and feel that his motors are in the top three of guys I know who "massage" these little motors. But lets face it, if I pull out a motor of a box and put it on a dyno its gonna be way lower then then the existing rule set in place. A little break in will not send it shooting over the 12,500 threshold and if your trying to get it close then you probably have an idea of how to get it close and not go over. I think the confusion is that Fred is using the word "May" meaning its up to the host site unless Fred says - You must comply with this rule if you are the host site. But I keep hearing alot of may. With all that being said if the host site is setting RPM limits above 13,500 and or not following Fred's recomandation or rule then they clearly are looking to give the advantage to people who know how to advance the timing (which is illegal) or giving the "people out there" who sell these motors some business. Again this is my opinion and you are entitled to hear it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:11 PM
  #12725  
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
Let me start with this -

14. Motor RPM Limits will be imposed to match out of the box performance. RPM numbers TBD.
15. It is forbidden to crank the timing on the 540-J motor physically or through the use of rare earth magnets.

So any thing over 13,500 is in violation of this rule and please don't tell me other wise I have enough of my own research to speak with a litlle knowledge and that following the rules there is no way to attain those types of RPM without breaking the rules. I respect what Doc does and the service he provides and feel that his motors are in the top three of guys I know who "massage" these little motors. But lets face it, if I pull out a motor of a box and put it on a dyno its gonna be way lower then then the existing rule set in place. A little break in will not send it shooting over the 12,500 threshold and if your trying to get it close then you probably have an idea of how to get it close and not go over. I think the confusion is that Fred is using the word "May" meaning its up to the host site unless Fred says - You must comply with this rule if you are the host site. But I keep hearing alot of may. With all that being said if the host site is setting RPM limits above 13,500 and or not following Fred's recomandation or rule then they clearly are looking to give the advantage to people who know how to advance the timing (which is illegal) or giving the "people out there" who sell these motors some business. Again this is my opinion and you are entitled to hear it.
And the other thing to keep in mind is that higher amp draw doesnt always equate to more power.
You can change amp draw just by what kind of lube you put on the bushings.
Sounds like it needs to go brushless to me
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:26 PM
  #12726  
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
Let me start with this -

14. Motor RPM Limits will be imposed to match out of the box performance. RPM numbers TBD.
15. It is forbidden to crank the timing on the 540-J motor physically or through the use of rare earth magnets.

So any thing over 13,500 is in violation of this rule and please don't tell me other wise I have enough of my own research to speak with a litlle knowledge and that following the rules there is no way to attain those types of RPM without breaking the rules. I respect what Doc does and the service he provides and feel that his motors are in the top three of guys I know who "massage" these little motors. But lets face it, if I pull out a motor of a box and put it on a dyno its gonna be way lower then then the existing rule set in place. A little break in will not send it shooting over the 12,500 threshold and if your trying to get it close then you probably have an idea of how to get it close and not go over. I think the confusion is that Fred is using the word "May" meaning its up to the host site unless Fred says - You must comply with this rule if you are the host site. But I keep hearing alot of may. With all that being said if the host site is setting RPM limits above 13,500 and or not following Fred's recomandation or rule then they clearly are looking to give the advantage to people who know how to advance the timing (which is illegal) or giving the "people out there" who sell these motors some business. Again this is my opinion and you are entitled to hear it.
+1

There are grey areas that lead to personal interpretation.

Although one could make the argument that the 540j rules you mentioned are only for mini because they are not listed under a general 540j rule catagory.

It is like the rules of 10 & 9 for GT3 and GT2:
New for 2010: In an effort to keep GT-2/GT-3 scale looking, dish wheels are banned from GT-2/GT-3 class racing. Spoke type wheels must be used.

So one would assume that they are illegal for GT1 but it is not mentioned. Thus making it legal to have dish wheels in GT1.

So the massaging that the motor builders are doing are not "illegal", unless specifically mentioned either by a blanket statement or specifically mentioned in a per class basis.

I have 7 new 540j motors untouched (except oil) they were 11,300-11,500 @ .99-1.19. Others I have are well broken in ones usually were high 11s to low 12s some with amps over the magic 1.2. There are a small small percentage that might go high 12s or low 13s with higher amps like 13,200 @ 1.45. This was not a normal motor compared the the ones I broke in.
All unmodified.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:41 PM
  #12727  
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
+1



I have 7 new 540j motors untouched (except oil) they were 11,300-11,500 @ .99-1.19. Others I have are well broken in ones usually were high 11s to low 12s some with amps over the magic 1.2. There are a small small percentage that might go high 12s or low 13s with higher amps like 13,200 @ 1.45. This was not a normal motor compared the the ones I broke in.
All unmodified.
So explain to me how this is more cost effective than buying 1 or 2 Red Dots?
Assuming that those brand new 540J's cost between $15 and $20 a piece
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:00 PM
  #12728  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
So explain to me how this is more cost effective than buying 1 or 2 Red Dots?
Assuming that those brand new 540J's cost between $15 and $20 a piece
What happens when you smoke a "Red Dot" via over gearing or weaken the magnets, ca-CHING. I don't own a zapper so $15-$20 makes more sense. Besides a zapper is pointless unless you replace the magnets, which I don't do. Newly broken in motors do have great snap. Put in a few heat cycles, you are at a loss. Although lately heat has not been my issue. . .

I have not and will never own a "Red Dot"!
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:42 PM
  #12729  
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Thanks Fred. This will allow guys to do a little break in and "just run it".

The nice part is those "doggy" practice motors may come in handy as they break in...
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:01 PM
  #12730  
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Originally Posted by Ray k
Very clear to me Bill


"The host site may use different numbers if it deems it necessary for their respective event, but the above numbers must be used as the bare minimum. "

It's up to the host track and the minimum RPM is 12,500 , no problem here!!

Announced Limits so far:

Omaha ,13.5k
Left coast, 12.5
Frederick Md. ,15k
Trackside ,13.5
Memphis , no limit
Hey Ray.....That was my assumption, but what I couldn't get was why any track would want to LOWER the limit below 12,500. It's a good line for box-stock, but as many have said you can still get an untouched motor to peak above that every now and again if all the planets align. As of last weekend, NONE of my silvercan stockers broke 12k or 1.1A. So I'm good......at least until we get to Memphis!
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:22 PM
  #12731  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
And the other thing to keep in mind is that higher amp draw doesnt always equate to more power.
You can change amp draw just by what kind of lube you put on the bushings.
Sounds like it needs to go brushless to me
i put CA Glue in my silver can.. and amp draw was at 9.0!
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:51 PM
  #12732  
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
What happens when you smoke a "Red Dot" via over gearing or weaken the magnets, ca-CHING. I don't own a zapper so $15-$20 makes more sense. Besides a zapper is pointless unless you replace the magnets, which I don't do. Newly broken in motors do have great snap. Put in a few heat cycles, you are at a loss. Although lately heat has not been my issue. . .

I have not and will never own a "Red Dot"!
If you were to buy one and listen to Doc on how to gear it you wouldnt be over geared hence you would not burn it up. You say you dont replace the magnets, are you implying that someone out there does?
Too bad you wont buy a Red Dot, you dont know what your missin!
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:10 PM
  #12733  
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man o man the silver can drama. Brushless sounds like a nice option. At the races this past weekend at the Track Doug and Ray K race at I was doing the water break n method. my little dyno reads a little different than Ray K's about 200 rpm different, any way.. with a water dipped new motor, I was at 12400 ish rpm and a 1.1 amp at 5 volts .. I havent dyoned a motor hot straight off the track, what normally happens, does it get better or worse ( on the dyno ) I would hate to be in the tech dyno line... pass going out to race, win the race, come back to the dyno line and my amp draw be too high.. kind takes some of the fun out it all... the 13.5 limit and 1.5 amp limit seems very acceptable in my opinion on out of the box motors reaching their peak potential. I really like the 15000 hand out option that was offered to all.. too bad that didnt happen.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
What happens when you smoke a "Red Dot" via over gearing or weaken the magnets, ca-CHING. I don't own a zapper so $15-$20 makes more sense. Besides a zapper is pointless unless you replace the magnets, which I don't do. Newly broken in motors do have great snap. Put in a few heat cycles, you are at a loss. Although lately heat has not been my issue. . .

I have not and will never own a "Red Dot"!
Originally Posted by A-Ko


A Tekin hopup option for non-Tekin RS users. . .
.... . .


maybe you should keep your commplimentary hopup to lube your silvercan with.. thats gotta help for a few RPMs.. no?

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Old 02-17-2010, 07:07 PM
  #12735  
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Originally Posted by Casey
I havent dyoned a motor hot straight off the track, what normally happens, does it get better or worse ( on the dyno ) I would hate to be in the tech dyno line... pass going out to race, win the race, come back to the dyno line and my amp draw be too high..
Most of the time you lose RPM from what I have seen. I don't pay attention to how the amp draw fluctuates, but I can't imagine that going up unless the motor is bound up or having other problems. At least that is how stock motors always were.
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