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Old 01-17-2010, 05:31 PM
  #12406  
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Originally Posted by 414MPH
Just thinning the heard. I was thinking everyone will want in on the F-1 action to get a piece of you Ray.

You coming to TS with Doc in April?
YYESS SSSIRRR!!!!!
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:23 PM
  #12407  
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Originally Posted by 414MPH
Just thinning the heard. I was thinking everyone will want in on the F-1 action to get a piece of you Ray.

You coming to TS with Doc in April?
So Marty are you running 104 rubber ?
I am coming for you Marty Booby!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:09 AM
  #12408  
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If Ray is gonna run F-1 then I am running it too. Hey Doc I agree and to be honest I dont think it matters anymore the fast guys will always be fast right?
Plus you dont even have to setup your own car to win nats thats obvious. Anyone traveling down for the Feb Socal TCS race? Doc thanks for the dish explanation.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:36 AM
  #12409  
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
If Ray is gonna run F-1 then I am running it too. Hey Doc I agree and to be honest I dont think it matters anymore the fast guys will always be fast right?
Plus you dont even have to setup your own car to win nats thats obvious. Anyone traveling down for the Feb Socal TCS race? Doc thanks for the dish explanation.
No F-1 for me , won it, built it, ran it, liked it, don't like it , sold it . You know the typical R/C life style!!!!!

Yes ,fast guys will always be fast !!!!!

As for traveling down for a Socal TCS regional ,MMMAY'BEE !!!!!!
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:43 AM
  #12410  
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Default Beware the engineers

Greg, Ray: I'd avoid leaving out the parts for the receiver and ESC and engineering a Lexan (or any other material) tray for your electrics. That could definitely be considered re-engineering the car. And I'm one of those guys who will complain about re-engineering, since I've been called out on a few of the mods I've made over the years. Remember the battle over whether you could leave off the battery cups and just tape the batteries in?
I know the kits include extra chassis posts that allow someone to permanently mount the F104 battery ("permanently" only in the sense that you can remove the battery if you take wrenches and remove the posts: see p.15 of F104 Pro assembly manual and F104 assembly manual), but the intent of the designer was not that those trays be left off. I'll admit I'd like to replace those styrene parts with Lexan for lightness, but that'd definitely be re-engineering. Also, if you hang the ESC and receiver off the upper chassis with a Lexan mount, aren't you technically adding the weight up high, raising the roll center? Unless that's what you're trying to do...
And I gotta ask, what battery are you trying to squeeze in? I can't get any better performance with an 40C 5000 than I do with a 20C 4800, given that we're using Johnson motors. The Orion 3800's have been a good pack for the 104, with a good combination of power and run time with a Johnson.
So as I wind everyone up with my two pence, we'll ask the Holy Father Fred to give us a decision on leaving out the plastic ESC/receiver mounts. Whee.
Marty: PM me the body/decal sheet list, please.

Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe
Also posted on the 104 thread:

With regards to the F104 Pro chassis, anyone care to take a guess as to whether it's TCS legal to ditch the ESC/Rx trays? My TP lipo is so wide that it touches the posts on both sides, so there's no room for the trays to wrap around the posts. I can get my small ESC/Rx to stay put on the chassis, but would this be considered an illegal "removal or modification"?
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:43 PM
  #12411  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
Greg, Ray: I'd avoid leaving out the parts for the receiver and ESC .....And I gotta ask, what battery are you trying to squeeze in? I can't get any better performance with an 40C 5000 than I do with a 20C 4800, given that we're using Johnson motors.
I'm with you on leaving the kit as is, which for the record, is why I am getting involved with TCS. It's a nice break from the laptop connected world of TC that I race with each weekend. The last thing I want is some hyper modded one-off custom class of "spec".

Here's was my deal. I only have two Lipos. One of them is a 3200/25C that was permanently bolted into my VTA JRX-S, wedged so perfectly between the bulkheads that I had to disassemble the whole back half of the car to get it out. For that in-convenience reason, I wasn't going to use that battery for F1. My other battery is a Thunder Power 5000/40C that quite quickly drops into and out of my Type-R. So obviously I was taking the easy route, but that TP 5000/40C touches the posts on both sides of the F104 Pro, leaving no room for the ESC/Rx trays. But then ...... I went to the January Jam at R/C Madness and needed to run my Type-R and the F1. Reluctantly I tore the VTA JRX-S apart and plopped that 3 year old battery in the F1, and of course, it worked just fine. Then I saw how cheap the Orion 3200/25C is and this whole radio tray debate became a moot point.

All that just to say thanks for you opinion, I'm now leaving the trays in place.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:08 PM
  #12412  
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guys.
What are the rules for F1, specifically gears( spur & pinion) and servo saver .I remember that few years back they didnít allow any other brands than Tamiya.

where can I get rubber tires for the 103?


thanks,

Victor Garcia
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Old 01-18-2010, 03:08 PM
  #12413  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
Greg, Ray: I'd avoid leaving out the parts for the receiver and ESC and engineering a Lexan (or any other material) tray for your electrics..
The F104 leaves you with a battery dilemma!! If you use Orion batteries ,you clear the radio mounts ,but now have to grind out the top deck to get access to the battery connections. If you run a square style pack like SMC or Thunder , it allows easy connection . But doesn't clear the battery tray loops.

Anyway my mod was for some club races , I don't plan on running F-1 at TCS .

As far as battery hold downs , I sure that 90% of TCS racers use strap tape to hold there batteries in . Not the plastic do-hic-ee's cups ,hooks ,bars or latches !!!

I don't think how you mount your radio gear ,transponder and weight has any bearing on breaking rules . We all mount these things for overall balance and low CG.

First rule of finishing a race ,is the battery has to still be in the car !! LOL
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Old 01-18-2010, 03:51 PM
  #12414  
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Take a look at the TCS links on the Tamiya website, and you'll be most pleased. You may use any servo saver, any battery connectors (or hard wiring), and any gears. I'll admit I'm still using the Tamiya spurs, but since they are not exactly what I'd call "precision molded", I not only am at a disadvantage as to gear choice, but also have adverse-wear issues. You can use any spurs and pinions that will fit without cutting the motor mount in any way to make them fit. And, that means, you can machine out the center of a Robinson Racing spur to fit the center bearing. I'll admit I like how the Tamiya spurs have a nice molded race for the bearing to fit in.
Tires: you'll notice that for Tamiya, this year only the F104's can run rubber, and in a separate class. The F103's and 4's will run foam together in a foam-tire class.
Originally Posted by vctr1
guys.
What are the rules for F1, specifically gears( spur & pinion) and servo saver .I remember that few years back they didnít allow any other brands than Tamiya.

where can I get rubber tires for the 103?


thanks,

Victor Garcia
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Old 01-18-2010, 04:10 PM
  #12415  
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Default Rules: how far can they bend?

The F104 does indeed, Ray. I had to Dremel my upper chassis stiffener to clear the posts for my Orion packs. However, I admittedly wasn't planning to run that car in TCS or the Nats, so didn't have to worry if I was re-engineering. And if all you're doing is running club races, then more power to you. (Pun intended).
We'uns do tape them batteries in now, but long ago there was a serious debate raging about whether we had to use them. Even a battle over whether we could cut off the power-switch mount that comes on the forward bulkhead for the F103. We've pretty much settled those battles.
As for where people mount their electronics, yes, it's not about breaking rules, but it is about whether the Tech Table, and the race director, consider it contrary to the spirit of the rules. Fred's rules about re-engineering the car are meant to keep people adhering to that spirit. We had a problem a few years back with people re-engineering the servo mount on the M-03 (you might remember that one), and the rule has been written to address that. Yeah, if we sit here long enough and think about it, we can come up with some pretty nifty mods. But is that something that we should be doing in what is supposed to be a lower-cost, lower-tech, FUN series? There's been more than enough posts on this page about that issue. I think re-engineering has its place, but I'm not sure if this racing series is the place for it.
I'll just end by pointing out that although excessively strict rules might prohibit what some see as innovation and breakthrough, the series with such rules in real life only do so to keep the racing close--or at least maintain the appearance of it. If a series doesn't appear to be close, or one competitor appears to have engineered "the unfair advantage", everyone else and their money walks away. Look no further than the Can-Am for that. NASCAR gets a lot of junk for how they manuever and adjust their rules; and join me in watching the fun as they contemplate this year how they might allow teams to use the very technology our street cars have used for years--fuel injection. Why does NASCAR insist that competitors use carburetors? Because it's cheaper, and they know how to police the technology so that they can maintain at least the illusion of parity.
Now, where's my crank handle for winding everyone up?

Originally Posted by Ray k
The F104 leaves you with a battery dilemma!! If you use Orion batteries ,you clear the radio mounts ,but now have to grind out the top deck to get access to the battery connections. If you run a square style pack like SMC or Thunder , it allows easy connection . But doesn't clear the battery tray loops.

Anyway my mod was for some club races , I don't plan on running F-1 at TCS .

As far as battery hold downs , I sure that 90% of TCS racers use strap tape to hold there batteries in . Not the plastic do-hic-ee's cups ,hooks ,bars or latches !!!

I don't think how you mount your radio gear ,transponder and weight has any bearing on breaking rules . We all mount these things for overall balance and low CG.

First rule of finishing a race ,is the battery has to still be in the car !! LOL
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:14 PM
  #12416  
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Originally Posted by Ray k
The F104 leaves you with a battery dilemma!! If you use Orion batteries ,you clear the radio mounts ,but now have to grind out the top deck to get access to the battery connections. If you run a square style pack like SMC or Thunder , it allows easy connection . But doesn't clear the battery tray loops.LOL
Actually, you don't have to mod or grind anything to access the battery connections.
FMW uses a simple method with a Deans harness to the 4mm plugs on his Orion battries, the harness loops thru the top between the servo and upper deck.
Quite a nice setup.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX
Actually, you don't have to mod or grind anything to access the battery connections.
FMW uses a simple method with a Deans harness to the 4mm plugs on his Orion battries, the harness loops thru the top between the servo and upper deck.
Quite a nice setup.
Got a pic of that?
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:27 PM
  #12418  
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I'll see if I can Fred to post it up.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:57 PM
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First race of 2010 in Omaha info, can be found here:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/nebraska-racing/361781-2010-tcs-race-plex-february-19th-21st.html#post6873343"
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:51 PM
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Hi all,

First, Any Orion Lipo that is 3400 or lower will fit fine in the F104 with the simple plug I made. There's no grinding of the chassis needed. The only thing I modded slightly is the plastic piece that keeps the battery from moving forward. (TCS Legal) Two, Reedy makes some nice rounded hard case Lipo's that have a plug that comes right out like an old school stick pack. (Dave Jun runs these) As long as you stay with these two configurations you're fine with the F104. For those who want to stick 100C bricks, good luck. Why do you even want to spend that much money on a pack and why do you need that much power and capacity? Do I really need to limit the class to 3400mah and 30C Lipo's????

Rubber guys. Here's a tip for the Tamiya track. The stock rubber tires that come with the Ferrari F60 are B like compounds. That means they are for warmer weather. In two weeks we will be announcing a Type A compound for cold weather. You will need these if you race carpet and you will need these if you race in track tems that are below 65 degrees F. Here's another tip. Build your rear tires with some type of air gap. The stock foam for the Tamiya track at least fills the tire too much. I built them stock and with air gap and air gap is way better. It's night and day. Some people have built the rears with no insert, but I think that's too much. It works for sure, but you wear the rear tires more. My next test will be with fron air gap. Also, a normal 24mm shaped touring car insert will work fine for the rear. You will just have to cut a half inch or so and re-glue. Don't make the insert too tight around the rim as you will close off the hole in the rim.

While I'm at it. There has been a lot of talk about banning speed controls. Kevin Cole. You weren't fooling anyone on Saturday. I know full well that you were running a 17.5 with some new speedo. 13.5 RIGHT???? That thing was a missle and it was no 13.5.
I know Scotty banned certain Speedos and firmwares for his Novak race, but at this point it would be premature and not right to start changing rules that people have been basing thier purchases on. We will see how GT-2 plays out for the first few races and see what's what.
Don't be surprised if tracks and certain racing series adopt one make motors and speed controls for true brushless spec or intermediate racing in the very near future. At the current advancements, 17.5 is going to kill on-road racing for club racers. The firmwares and speed controls coming out negate the speeds that intermediate club racers are used to and can handle.

Mini guys. There will be RPM rules for TCS. What that number is??? Don't you worry. Just think out of the box numbers. How we test for these out of the box numbers is TBD.

Good night.....
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