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Old 12-21-2009, 06:03 PM
  #12256  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR


Side note - Tamiya will probably not allow "tuned" brushless motors. The main tuning tool to a brushless is changing the rotor and Tamiya was very specific this year, especially at Nats about running the stock rotor the motor came with. The intent of limiting the amount of different motors was to try to limit the free for all spending people would do to find the perfect esc / motor / rotor combo. At least by allowing some advance timing motors, the guy with the older non advance timing esc's like the Novak GTB can be much closer on power to guys with newer esc's. "If" someone chooses to spend the money to do that, a $ 90.00 brushless motor is much cheaper than the newer $ 240+ esc's lioke the Tekin, LRP and KO. However, that silly thing called talent will still unfortunately be a major factor in the overall performance.
Most of the tuning in brushless seems to be shimming and rating the rotors on a gaussmeter. I don't think anyone is offering different rotors out of the package. There are a few companies (orion comes to mind) that offer different size rotors with different amounts of magnetic material, but EA or Express are just shimming the motors and rating the rotors. Some may be dynoing the motors too, but it depends who you get it from.
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:10 PM
  #12257  
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Sorry guys, my post may have come off as "complaining", but its more just my own personal thought on all this stuff. The rules are the rules, and they are fine by me. I race my 416 in 13.5 or my IFS-R in 17.5 and my F1 when time allows on the weekends, so I have all the toys ready to go (and yes the $$ invested). I will try to clarify my thoughts / answer other below:

Regarding the DUO, well I have two 13.5's and they are both LEGAL DUO's so I really dont want to spend the $$ on a one/two race motor for GT1. Also, it would be very obvious to those that race if someone were running a 13.5 in 17.5 or a 10.5 in 13.5. In fact we had this happen (on accident) Saturday in 17.5. Guy swapped in his Novak ballistic with the 13.5 stator. The rip down the straight & out of corners was easy to spot. Also, the group I race against in 13.5 (National event A-Main winners), I could have a 5.5 in there and it would not do anything good for me against them.

GT2, I bought a X11 17.5 last year since the DUO 17.5 I had was not legal. This weekend I helped a fellow racer dial in his Ballistic 17.5 w\ a Tekin and the car definitely had more rip than my X11 Tekin setup. I'll be working on the car setup more to see if I can make up the difference.

Not whining at all about the Battery situation. I pushed the limits on a well used 5000 pack and found its limits.

I'm looking forward to the Omaha & Trackside races whatever the classes may be.

Jimmy
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:58 PM
  #12258  
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Originally Posted by Csaari77
Hasn't this can of worms already been opened with the "tuned" can motors? Doesn't this fall into a similar category?
Im sure if you asked a handful of people, youd get a handful of answers.
Personally I dont see it as being the same, because the silver can deal is just how the motor is broke in, you are not physically changing parts like arms, and brushes and springs
Besides, it seems like more than one venue will have the RPM limit in effect, so that takes the really really fast motors out of the equation
With these trick rotors out there, is there a way to police them and tell the difference between a trick one and a stock one?
Hopefully there is, cuz if not you know people will be runnin them.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:42 PM
  #12259  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
Im sure if you asked a handful of people, youd get a handful of answers.
Personally I dont see it as being the same, because the silver can deal is just how the motor is broke in, you are not physically changing parts like arms, and brushes and springs
Besides, it seems like more than one venue will have the RPM limit in effect, so that takes the really really fast motors out of the equation
With these trick rotors out there, is there a way to police them and tell the difference between a trick one and a stock one?
Hopefully there is, cuz if not you know people will be runnin them.
Ok Brad, I'm gonna call you on this one. If you think changing brushes and springs is illegal, did you ever run GT1 or GT2 when we were running brushed motors? If so, did you ever change the brushes and/or springs and think it was "cheating"? You cheater you!!! Back in the days of brushed motors I would say at least 90% of the guys were running a motor that they paid a little extra for someone (EA, Trinity, Surge, etc) to tune, and they were NEVER called out as illegal, were they? [We'll ignore those odd-ball motors where the armature tags fell off, right Bruce? ]

As someone already posted; EA, Express, and others are offering the same motor knowledge with brushless as those $50 silver can guys. You are paying for their expertise, not special illegal do-dads inside the motor. If they were changing rotors I'd agree with you, but I don't think they are doing it (at least not on the motors they are selling as ROAR legal). From what I hear, shimming and hand-picked LEGAL stock rotors can make a huge difference in performance, but it's nothing that any of us can't do. They just have the experience behind them, so you don't have to trash a bunch of motors learning their secret (just like the silvercans).

Not that I'd buy a tuned BL motor, but I gotta think we're dealing with the same thing here.

As you said, ask for an opinion..........
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:29 PM
  #12260  
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When it comes to run time, we are easily putting 10 minute runs on our Team Powers 5000mah LIPOS with 13.5 motors. If you can not get more than 6 minutes with a 17.5, you have used and abused and gotten your moneys worth from that bettery (hopefully).

Hebiki - why pay $ 120.00 for a Thunder Power LIPO. HKS Hobbies sells the Team Powers 5000mah 40C for $ 70.00. With a tighter budget being a daddy now, you need to look for deals !

Not all "stock" rotors are the same. Tolerances will make minor differences and effect performance. A motor tuner like EA will buy large batches of the motors than the typical racer so they can check and test the rotors to get the optimum set-up. Personally, I will work on improving my skill so I can use the maximum out of the motors I already have. If you think faster motors is the only way to win, watch guys with electric cars turn faster laps than nitro cars at a local club rce. Just be careful if the nitro car is right behind you on the straight during practice.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:44 PM
  #12261  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR

Not all "stock" rotors are the same. Tolerances will make minor differences and effect performance. A motor tuner like EA will buy large batches of the motors than the typical racer so they can check and test the rotors to get the optimum set-up. Personally, I will work on improving my skill so I can use the maximum out of the motors I already have. If you think faster motors is the only way to win, watch guys with electric cars turn faster laps than nitro cars at a local club rce. Just be careful if the nitro car is right behind you on the straight during practice.
Agreed. If you could race with your wallet, I would have made the A-main last year in GT2 at the Nats!

Again, I'm not one who will run out and buy the tuned motor, but I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. There was nothing in the Nats rules that said you couldn't hand-pick a rotor at last year's Nats, only that it had to be stock for that manufacturer and could not be the 13mm upgrade. If someone wanted to buy 10 rotors (and I'm sure someone did), it was within the rules. Did it make a difference for them...who knows?

I was just making a point that IMO what the BL tuners do is the same as the silvercan break-in masters, and therefore I do not feel a tuned BL motor should be outlawed as long as it meets the specs. If you don't want tuned BL motors, then we'll have to buy spec'ed and tech'ed motors at the race with a motor impound like the silvercans at the Nats. But I don't think we really want to go there at a regional race.

Let's just get out there and race!
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:31 PM
  #12262  
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Originally Posted by minimadman2003
Ok Brad, I'm gonna call you on this one. If you think changing brushes and springs is illegal, did you ever run GT1 or GT2 when we were running brushed motors? If so, did you ever change the brushes and/or springs and think it was "cheating"? You cheater you!!! Back in the days of brushed motors I would say at least 90% of the guys were running a motor that they paid a little extra for someone (EA, Trinity, Surge, etc) to tune, and they were NEVER called out as illegal, were they? [We'll ignore those odd-ball motors where the armature tags fell off, right Bruce? ]

As someone already posted; EA, Express, and others are offering the same motor knowledge with brushless as those $50 silver can guys. You are paying for their expertise, not special illegal do-dads inside the motor. If they were changing rotors I'd agree with you, but I don't think they are doing it (at least not on the motors they are selling as ROAR legal). From what I hear, shimming and hand-picked LEGAL stock rotors can make a huge difference in performance, but it's nothing that any of us can't do. They just have the experience behind them, so you don't have to trash a bunch of motors learning their secret (just like the silvercans).

Not that I'd buy a tuned BL motor, but I gotta think we're dealing with the same thing here.

As you said, ask for an opinion..........
Bill,
You can call me out if you want, but I was talking strictly about silvercan motors, not 19 or 27 turn rebuildables . The silvercan stuff is 90 % break-in and maybe some magnet zapping. But as I said before, there is no replacement of parts in silvercan tuning.
If all these guys are doing is finding the best of the stock rotors and shimming them to sit in the field in the optimum spot, then I guess thats a different story, however how do you get around the part number issue?
The rules call for specific part #'s by specific manufacturers
Its ultimately gonna be Freds call anyways, I was just pissed because without fail,the rules come out and right off the bat someone wants an exception. Hopefully Fred can clarify this soon, because I may buy a new motor or two for Trackside, so it would be nice to know
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:00 PM
  #12263  
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I'm not looking for an exception. I need to get a 13.5 to run GT1. EA sells tuned Duo 2's and I just wanted to know if I could run one. I'm not the fastest driver on the track, I just like to get the best available equipment. I think the tuned brushless vs. tuned silvercan is a valid argument.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:55 AM
  #12264  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
When it comes to run time, we are easily putting 10 minute runs on our Team Powers 5000mah LIPOS with 13.5 motors. If you can not get more than 6 minutes with a 17.5, you have used and abused and gotten your moneys worth from that bettery (hopefully).

Hebiki - why pay $ 120.00 for a Thunder Power LIPO. HKS Hobbies sells the Team Powers 5000mah 40C for $ 70.00. With a tighter budget being a daddy now, you need to look for deals !

Not all "stock" rotors are the same. Tolerances will make minor differences and effect performance. A motor tuner like EA will buy large batches of the motors than the typical racer so they can check and test the rotors to get the optimum set-up. Personally, I will work on improving my skill so I can use the maximum out of the motors I already have. If you think faster motors is the only way to win, watch guys with electric cars turn faster laps than nitro cars at a local club rce. Just be careful if the nitro car is right behind you on the straight during practice.
im not buying new batteries. ill be using the Team Powers and the Thunderpower I have currently the new stuff is for the boy.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:45 AM
  #12265  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
Bill,
You can call me out if you want, but I was talking strictly about silvercan motors, not 19 or 27 turn rebuildables . The silvercan stuff is 90 % break-in and maybe some magnet zapping. But as I said before, there is no replacement of parts in silvercan tuning.
If all these guys are doing is finding the best of the stock rotors and shimming them to sit in the field in the optimum spot, then I guess thats a different story, however how do you get around the part number issue?
The rules call for specific part #'s by specific manufacturers
Its ultimately gonna be Freds call anyways, I was just pissed because without fail,the rules come out and right off the bat someone wants an exception. Hopefully Fred can clarify this soon, because I may buy a new motor or two for Trackside, so it would be nice to know
I love yanking your chain.

But to answer your question about the specific part number....Well, I'd just buy two Duo 2 motors from my LHS and send them to EA to get tuned. J/K, I'm not evening running GT1 next year.

But that's my point.....You cannot stop it from happening, so you might as well allow it. Keep the rotor restriction, but do not regulate where you buy a Duo 2 motor. Because unless you are going to sell tech and spec motors at the event and keep them under lock and key, somebody is going to try to get more out of it. After all, "that's just what racers do".
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:33 AM
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Everybody is talking about the Duos, what about the Ballistics. Novaks have no markings on any of their rotors to prove they came with this particular can. So for that matter, how can you prove that I didnt go out and buy 100 rotors, just to find one that might have had 30 more points on the meter.. You cant!

For what its worth, I am probably not even going to be able to run a TCS this year, just proving a point that you cant keep out "tuned" brushless motors just because it has a different sticker on it.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:56 AM
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Just like they spec their own silver cans, black cans and formula tuned motors, perhaps Tamiya could spec their own BL motors. It'll be more fair and less of a tech hassle, but then people will complain they have to buy something "yet again."
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:30 AM
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
bleh
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:51 AM
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The brushless motors aren't worth arguing over, seriously. It's the speed controls that will make the difference.
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