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Old 09-06-2009, 10:07 AM
  #11896  
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
1)Even at Nationals F1 was generally the biggest class at just about every event. We also found the rubber tires made the F1's easier for beginners.

2)The F201 was announced, there was speculation that the Nats would be an F201 class and not an F103 class which hurt and that all went down at the peak of the Sedan popularity, all contributing to the demise of the F103.

3)While I am not thrilled with the F104 design the body and wings look awesome. What I'd like to see for next year is F1 would be the F104 only. Why promote the F103 if it's not commercially available?

4)It needs a stable set of rules that remains by-and-large unchanged for multiple seasons. And what classes are the most popular? GT3, Mini and GT2. There's something to be said for stability...
OK,, now my two pence: 1) I hate to tell you this Gary, but rubber tires for F1's were not the salvation for the class, at least not out here in Cali, and at TA. We spent enormous amounts of time figuring how to make those dang tires work worth a damn, because if you just assembled them and put them on an F103, you were mad loose, worse than with a set of foams. (If you put them under a F103LM with bodywork, it was another matter.) Certain "tricks" had to be discovered, by such luminaries as Chien-Hwa who figured out what to do with the rear inserts; and Dave Beale, bless him, who figured that we could go back to using the stock rear pod instead of the height-adjustable one because of the lack of ride-height change, and thus could use the better axle bearings on the rear. Maybe folks in the Midwest benefited immediately from their use, but we were somewhat aggravated by the changes we had to make to the car and finding something finally that more or less worked.
Ever since F103 went away in 2003, I used to take my F103 out with rubber tires a few times a year and run it. It worked fairly well and always amazed onlookers (especially newbies) with its speed with a simple Johnson motor. When the announcement was made last year that F103's with foams were coming back, I got out a set of foam tires I had stored in an old Pringles can covered in suntan lotion (the tires, not the can) and put 'em on the car. It was noticeably faster and had even old heads who've known me longer than they'd like to admit remarking how stable it looked. Without changing my setup from the rubber tires, the car felt an order of magnitude better. So with respect, Gary, at least at TA foams were better before we slurried the track.
Now that the track has been repaired, we have a beautiful new surface, and rubber-tired sedans and Minis have excellent grip. But because all the cars in the last few months have done a nice job of polishing the "line" around the track, that part is now so smooth that foam-tired F1's can't get the grip they had before the slurry was applied. Solution? Change your setup, not the tire type. We have people who found things that work; Austin in particular. We'll get it figured out. I ran my 8th-place car yesterday with a few changes, and it was much, much better, so I will spend the winter kicking myself.
Rubber tires will not be the answer to everything F1 if they are a pain to use. Having to find the right insert, trimming the shoulders on the front tires, having to reglue the glue bead every run or two because the cornering forces cause it to split, cleaning and saucing them--to me, it's SSDD.
2) You are partly correct that the Tamiya decision not to support the F103 really hurt, but the decision to create and support the F201 really did a number on the F1 class. There's nothing like an RC car that doesn't hold a setup, requires beastly amounts of maintenance, and needs a new chassis every few runs because the motor heat warped the area around the motor to make somebody say, "F-- it, I'm gonna run sedan." The F201 was, though cool-looking, a stake through the heart of the F1 class.
3) The F104 design does have drawbacks; one, the length of the wheelbase does make it plow like a Deere. Don't know why they chose that; might have something to do with the center-mount position of the battery. Two, using li-pos with top-side banana plugs is an issue. There may be a fix on the way, if certain Tamiya persons I won't name are correct. Or, you can grind the hell out of the upper plate "wings" like I did. However, it is really mostly a stretched F103 with a new t-plate design. I sure wish we had a fix like that for the F103. And some of the new parts are really sweet; I had a fear about the durability of the upper A-arms up front, but it has proven to be more durable than I gave it credit. So, it's a new design; we'll figure it out. And it sure doesn't require as much maintenance as a F201.
4) Yes, there is something to be said for stability. I predict that the F103 will be competetive here in North Am. for at least the next year, while we buy up all the spare F103 parts we can lay hands on. And the F104 will come around. We'll just have to see what TA decides next year's F1 class will be; I predict it won't be F103GT's and sedan tires. (Cursed things.)
Like Fred keeps saying, F1 is back, baby.
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Old 09-06-2009, 06:47 PM
  #11897  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
OK,, now my two pence: 1) I hate to tell you this Gary, but rubber tires for F1's were not the salvation for the class, at least not out here in Cali, and at TA. We spent enormous amounts of time figuring how to make those dang tires work worth a damn, because if you just assembled them and put them on an F103, you were mad loose, worse than with a set of foams. (If you put them under a F103LM with bodywork, it was another matter.) Certain "tricks" had to be discovered, by such luminaries as Chien-Hwa who figured out what to do with the rear inserts; and Dave Beale, bless him, who figured that we could go back to using the stock rear pod instead of the height-adjustable one because of the lack of ride-height change, and thus could use the better axle bearings on the rear. Maybe folks in the Midwest benefited immediately from their use, but we were somewhat aggravated by the changes we had to make to the car and finding something finally that more or less worked.
Ever since F103 went away in 2003, I used to take my F103 out with rubber tires a few times a year and run it. It worked fairly well and always amazed onlookers (especially newbies) with its speed with a simple Johnson motor. When the announcement was made last year that F103's with foams were coming back, I got out a set of foam tires I had stored in an old Pringles can covered in suntan lotion (the tires, not the can) and put 'em on the car. It was noticeably faster and had even old heads who've known me longer than they'd like to admit remarking how stable it looked. Without changing my setup from the rubber tires, the car felt an order of magnitude better. So with respect, Gary, at least at TA foams were better before we slurried the track.
Now that the track has been repaired, we have a beautiful new surface, and rubber-tired sedans and Minis have excellent grip. But because all the cars in the last few months have done a nice job of polishing the "line" around the track, that part is now so smooth that foam-tired F1's can't get the grip they had before the slurry was applied. Solution? Change your setup, not the tire type. We have people who found things that work; Austin in particular. We'll get it figured out. I ran my 8th-place car yesterday with a few changes, and it was much, much better, so I will spend the winter kicking myself.
Rubber tires will not be the answer to everything F1 if they are a pain to use. Having to find the right insert, trimming the shoulders on the front tires, having to reglue the glue bead every run or two because the cornering forces cause it to split, cleaning and saucing them--to me, it's SSDD.
2) You are partly correct that the Tamiya decision not to support the F103 really hurt, but the decision to create and support the F201 really did a number on the F1 class. There's nothing like an RC car that doesn't hold a setup, requires beastly amounts of maintenance, and needs a new chassis every few runs because the motor heat warped the area around the motor to make somebody say, "F-- it, I'm gonna run sedan." The F201 was, though cool-looking, a stake through the heart of the F1 class.
3) The F104 design does have drawbacks; one, the length of the wheelbase does make it plow like a Deere. Don't know why they chose that; might have something to do with the center-mount position of the battery. Two, using li-pos with top-side banana plugs is an issue. There may be a fix on the way, if certain Tamiya persons I won't name are correct. Or, you can grind the hell out of the upper plate "wings" like I did. However, it is really mostly a stretched F103 with a new t-plate design. I sure wish we had a fix like that for the F103. And some of the new parts are really sweet; I had a fear about the durability of the upper A-arms up front, but it has proven to be more durable than I gave it credit. So, it's a new design; we'll figure it out. And it sure doesn't require as much maintenance as a F201.
4) Yes, there is something to be said for stability. I predict that the F103 will be competetive here in North Am. for at least the next year, while we buy up all the spare F103 parts we can lay hands on. And the F104 will come around. We'll just have to see what TA decides next year's F1 class will be; I predict it won't be F103GT's and sedan tires. (Cursed things.)
Like Fred keeps saying, F1 is back, baby.
Tru that Tom,

Did u get ur mini yet?
mines ready gonna b a lot of fun
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Old 09-07-2009, 10:14 AM
  #11898  
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Originally Posted by Mugen_wonderboi
Tru that Tom,

Did u get ur mini yet?
mines ready gonna b a lot of fun
I have, thanks to Chuck Leslie (Chucklessly? Whenever we race without him we race chucklessly), all around swell guy, and went out yesterday and spent way too much money on other things I need to get it running. Should be up and running on Saturday. Now I can really get my butt handed to me. Granpa, you listening?
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Old 09-07-2009, 11:02 AM
  #11899  
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Did someone say MINI?

Late nighter last nite and it's sittin on wheels.

No tricks yet, just a kit build, bone stock.

Not to worry, I know the champ!

Completely forgot to mention:

THANK YOU TAMIYA FOR THE RAFFLE PRIZES!!!!!!!!

Craig ----Mini M 05 Drawing winner!
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Old 09-07-2009, 01:02 PM
  #11900  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
I have, thanks to Chuck Leslie (Chucklessly? Whenever we race without him we race chucklessly), all around swell guy, and went out yesterday and spent way too much money on other things I need to get it running. Should be up and running on Saturday. Now I can really get my butt handed to me. Granpa, you listening?
Lookin forward to it Tom. At least now you won't spend all day at the track and get in 4 runs. I plan on getting my F103 back on the track as soon as $$$$ for some new electronics is saved up. The F103 gave up it's electronics to my new M05 Pro.

By the way don't spend much time on painting a body, cause the Mini guys are always looking for fresh blood. That goes for you too, Craig. Wow, a couple of F1 guys to beat up on. Also, Craig, knowing TDK ain't going to help you much, as he's as good as anyone at wiping people out. Welcome to the rough and tumble Mini world.
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Old 09-07-2009, 03:09 PM
  #11901  
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Lookin forward to it Tom. At least now you won't spend all day at the track and get in 4 runs. I plan on getting my F103 back on the track as soon as $$$$ for some new electronics is saved up. The F103 gave up it's electronics to my new M05 Pro.

By the way don't spend much time on painting a body, cause the Mini guys are always looking for fresh blood. That goes for you too, Craig. Wow, a couple of F1 guys to beat up on. Also, Craig, knowing TDK ain't going to help you much, as he's as good as anyone at wiping people out. Welcome to the rough and tumble Mini world.
You got a point there, Granpa. Now might not be the time to whip up a nice Canon Williams Mini-Cooper in blue, yellow and white. I went and got me a new metal-gear servo, a nice new receiver, and am gonna use an old ESC I have for now until I can find one of those nice Tekin's you use.
Craig, indeed it is fender-rubbin, door-slammin, cartwheel-turnin, counter steerin, traction hoppin, freight-trainin-down-the-main-straight time. You meet the nicest people as you hit them in a Mini...
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
OK,, now my two pence: 1) I hate to tell you this Gary, but rubber tires for F1's were not the salvation for the class, at least not out here in Cali, and at TA. We spent enormous amounts of time figuring how to make those dang tires work worth a damn, because if you just assembled them and put them on an F103, you were mad loose, worse than with a set of foams. (If you put them under a F103LM with bodywork, it was another matter.) Certain "tricks" had to be discovered, by such luminaries as Chien-Hwa who figured out what to do with the rear inserts; and Dave Beale, bless him, who figured that we could go back to using the stock rear pod instead of the height-adjustable one because of the lack of ride-height change, and thus could use the better axle bearings on the rear. Maybe folks in the Midwest benefited immediately from their use, but we were somewhat aggravated by the changes we had to make to the car and finding something finally that more or less worked.
Ever since F103 went away in 2003, I used to take my F103 out with rubber tires a few times a year and run it. It worked fairly well and always amazed onlookers (especially newbies) with its speed with a simple Johnson motor. When the announcement was made last year that F103's with foams were coming back, I got out a set of foam tires I had stored in an old Pringles can covered in suntan lotion (the tires, not the can) and put 'em on the car. It was noticeably faster and had even old heads who've known me longer than they'd like to admit remarking how stable it looked. Without changing my setup from the rubber tires, the car felt an order of magnitude better. So with respect, Gary, at least at TA foams were better before we slurried the track.
Now that the track has been repaired, we have a beautiful new surface, and rubber-tired sedans and Minis have excellent grip. But because all the cars in the last few months have done a nice job of polishing the "line" around the track, that part is now so smooth that foam-tired F1's can't get the grip they had before the slurry was applied. Solution? Change your setup, not the tire type. We have people who found things that work; Austin in particular. We'll get it figured out. I ran my 8th-place car yesterday with a few changes, and it was much, much better, so I will spend the winter kicking myself.
Rubber tires will not be the answer to everything F1 if they are a pain to use. Having to find the right insert, trimming the shoulders on the front tires, having to reglue the glue bead every run or two because the cornering forces cause it to split, cleaning and saucing them--to me, it's SSDD.
2) You are partly correct that the Tamiya decision not to support the F103 really hurt, but the decision to create and support the F201 really did a number on the F1 class. There's nothing like an RC car that doesn't hold a setup, requires beastly amounts of maintenance, and needs a new chassis every few runs because the motor heat warped the area around the motor to make somebody say, "F-- it, I'm gonna run sedan." The F201 was, though cool-looking, a stake through the heart of the F1 class.
3) The F104 design does have drawbacks; one, the length of the wheelbase does make it plow like a Deere. Don't know why they chose that; might have something to do with the center-mount position of the battery. Two, using li-pos with top-side banana plugs is an issue. There may be a fix on the way, if certain Tamiya persons I won't name are correct. Or, you can grind the hell out of the upper plate "wings" like I did. However, it is really mostly a stretched F103 with a new t-plate design. I sure wish we had a fix like that for the F103. And some of the new parts are really sweet; I had a fear about the durability of the upper A-arms up front, but it has proven to be more durable than I gave it credit. So, it's a new design; we'll figure it out. And it sure doesn't require as much maintenance as a F201.
4) Yes, there is something to be said for stability. I predict that the F103 will be competetive here in North Am. for at least the next year, while we buy up all the spare F103 parts we can lay hands on. And the F104 will come around. We'll just have to see what TA decides next year's F1 class will be; I predict it won't be F103GT's and sedan tires. (Cursed things.)
Like Fred keeps saying, F1 is back, baby.
Great finally someome who agrees with me LOL
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Old 09-07-2009, 07:12 PM
  #11903  
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
You got a point there, Granpa. Now might not be the time to whip up a nice Canon Williams Mini-Cooper in blue, yellow and white. I went and got me a new metal-gear servo, a nice new receiver, and am gonna use an old ESC I have for now until I can find one of those nice Tekin's you use.
Craig, indeed it is fender-rubbin, door-slammin, cartwheel-turnin, counter steerin, traction hoppin, freight-trainin-down-the-main-straight time. You meet the nicest people as you hit them in a Mini...
As the Great Alfred E. Newman says (Mad Magazine), "What, Me Worry"?

Like Michael Monaghan (The Mini Champ I refer to), I too have a history of racing Slashes and SC10 Short Course trucks.
How bout all those cartwheelin, fender rubbin, doorlslammin antics combined with big jumps and air time.
Think it'll be ok in a cute little mini where the wheels spend MOST of their time on hard ground.
It's on dogs! Can't wait.

Drivin it around today with the boinger shocks and plastic bushings, not too bad just like that, got around ok for a 100% boxstocker.
Boca bearings ordered and shocks needed.

Recommended tires for Tamiya track?
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Slick
OK,, now my two pence: 1) I hate to tell you this Gary, but rubber tires for F1's were not the salvation for the class, at least not out here in Cali, and at TA. We spent enormous amounts of time figuring how to make those dang tires work worth a damn, because if you just assembled them and put them on an F103, you were mad loose, worse than with a set of foams. (If you put them under a F103LM with bodywork, it was another matter.) Certain "tricks" had to be discovered, by such luminaries as Chien-Hwa who figured out what to do with the rear inserts; and Dave Beale, bless him, who figured that we could go back to using the stock rear pod instead of the height-adjustable one because of the lack of ride-height change, and thus could use the better axle bearings on the rear. Maybe folks in the Midwest benefited immediately from their use, but we were somewhat aggravated by the changes we had to make to the car and finding something finally that more or less worked.
Ever since F103 went away in 2003, I used to take my F103 out with rubber tires a few times a year and run it. It worked fairly well and always amazed onlookers (especially newbies) with its speed with a simple Johnson motor. When the announcement was made last year that F103's with foams were coming back, I got out a set of foam tires I had stored in an old Pringles can covered in suntan lotion (the tires, not the can) and put 'em on the car. It was noticeably faster and had even old heads who've known me longer than they'd like to admit remarking how stable it looked. Without changing my setup from the rubber tires, the car felt an order of magnitude better. So with respect, Gary, at least at TA foams were better before we slurried the track.
Now that the track has been repaired, we have a beautiful new surface, and rubber-tired sedans and Minis have excellent grip. But because all the cars in the last few months have done a nice job of polishing the "line" around the track, that part is now so smooth that foam-tired F1's can't get the grip they had before the slurry was applied. Solution? Change your setup, not the tire type. We have people who found things that work; Austin in particular. We'll get it figured out. I ran my 8th-place car yesterday with a few changes, and it was much, much better, so I will spend the winter kicking myself.
Rubber tires will not be the answer to everything F1 if they are a pain to use. Having to find the right insert, trimming the shoulders on the front tires, having to reglue the glue bead every run or two because the cornering forces cause it to split, cleaning and saucing them--to me, it's SSDD.
2) You are partly correct that the Tamiya decision not to support the F103 really hurt, but the decision to create and support the F201 really did a number on the F1 class. There's nothing like an RC car that doesn't hold a setup, requires beastly amounts of maintenance, and needs a new chassis every few runs because the motor heat warped the area around the motor to make somebody say, "F-- it, I'm gonna run sedan." The F201 was, though cool-looking, a stake through the heart of the F1 class.
3) The F104 design does have drawbacks; one, the length of the wheelbase does make it plow like a Deere. Don't know why they chose that; might have something to do with the center-mount position of the battery. Two, using li-pos with top-side banana plugs is an issue. There may be a fix on the way, if certain Tamiya persons I won't name are correct. Or, you can grind the hell out of the upper plate "wings" like I did. However, it is really mostly a stretched F103 with a new t-plate design. I sure wish we had a fix like that for the F103. And some of the new parts are really sweet; I had a fear about the durability of the upper A-arms up front, but it has proven to be more durable than I gave it credit. So, it's a new design; we'll figure it out. And it sure doesn't require as much maintenance as a F201.
4) Yes, there is something to be said for stability. I predict that the F103 will be competetive here in North Am. for at least the next year, while we buy up all the spare F103 parts we can lay hands on. And the F104 will come around. We'll just have to see what TA decides next year's F1 class will be; I predict it won't be F103GT's and sedan tires. (Cursed things.)
Like Fred keeps saying, F1 is back, baby.
Tom, the thing you also failed to mention though was the rampant cheating in the F1 class (Yes, I said CHEATING!) re: Non-Tamiya Foam tires, soaking tires in all sorts of chemicals that were illegal at the time, etc. Rubber Tires eliminated ALL of this. People think that the Mini Class is bad now with some of the motor shenanigans that go on, F1 was the king of the hill back in the day with tires...
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:59 AM
  #11905  
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Tom, the thing you also failed to mention though was the rampant cheating in the F1 class (Yes, I said CHEATING!) re: Non-Tamiya Foam tires, soaking tires in all sorts of chemicals that were illegal at the time, etc. Rubber Tires eliminated ALL of this. People think that the Mini Class is bad now with some of the motor shenanigans that go on, F1 was the king of the hill back in the day with tires...
Tom ..... spot on as always. ..... F103 on rubber...Tragic.... F103 on Foams well Pricelesssssss. Having run them both I will go with foams anyday of the week over rubber. Now as far as cheating with tire additives and non tamiya tires , I think Fred will get a handle on this with the all of our help and input. Heck we have never run any additives on our tires and Jr's been competitive. It still comes down to one thing DRIVER which in my opinion makes up 80% of the equation the rest is set up and sometimes a little luck. Besides isn't it fair to say that most of the fastest cars and classes run on foam. Whether on carpet or asphalt. Yea it's messy and expensive but if you want to go fast you gotta spend the money to do it. My .25 worth....HAVE A NICE DAY
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:58 PM
  #11906  
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
(Yes, I said CHEATING!)
Gary, you're crazy. there's no cheating at TCS Nats.

[/end sarcasm]
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
Gary, you're crazy. there's no cheating at TCS Nats.

[/end sarcasm]
And Tamiya actually produced a TB02SS...: ha:
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:49 PM
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I wonder if F1 will goto handout lock-down tires, like they did with silver canned motors?
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Lookin forward to it Tom. At least now you won't spend all day at the track and get in 4 runs. I plan on getting my F103 back on the track as soon as $$$$ for some new electronics is saved up. The F103 gave up it's electronics to my new M05 Pro.

By the way don't spend much time on painting a body, cause the Mini guys are always looking for fresh blood. That goes for you too, Craig. Wow, a couple of F1 guys to beat up on. Also, Craig, knowing TDK ain't going to help you much, as he's as good as anyone at wiping people out. Welcome to the rough and tumble Mini world.
Hey Gradnpa - I am busting open the box on my M05 Pro this week too. Plan on running it end of month at the Mazda race with the RX-7 body I brought out Saturday. As for time spent painting a body, well, you know I can't help myself. If you need some electronics for you F103, I have a Novak GTX I can let go cheap and if you are running Airtronics 75FM, I have more than a few extra receivers laying around. Never hurts when I need to get some grandpa power in my mini !

Tom - bit of advice. Let them all bash and bang and laugh and when the Red Seas part as 4-5 minis go bouncing every which way, then drive through. Days of Thunder baby. Head for the smoke and drive straight through it.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:32 PM
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I know that no one really knows me in the Tamiya world, but I wanted to express my opinion about tires on the F1 car.
Rubbers, while they are not as much traction as a foam, remove a lot of problems that foam tires can create.
Pros of Foam tires are...........
-High traction
-Stable cars
Cons...
-The tires can chunk, then have to be replaced.
- Have to be turned down to work in high traction environments.
- After wear there can be stagger in the tires, which then need to be trued.
- They wear out fast.

Rubber tires, while they do not create as much traction, have no cons other than less traction. They will not need to be put a on a tire truer. A special arbor does not have to be purchased for the truer.

If anyone feels I am off on any point here, please let me know. I have raced a LONG time and feel rubber tires might get more people into the F1 game. I sold my 103 a while back. The car was Dialed at my home track. I wish I would have kept it to go to Cali a week ago. Until the rules go back to rubber tires, I will not likely get another one as much as I love open wheel racing.

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