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Old 07-07-2009, 12:03 PM
  #11251  
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Originally Posted by teamstrc
I'm not sure if it can be done, but if we are to go 21.5, we should spec the gear ratio too. I've been out of touch a bit with the latest and greatest in electronics, and having just ran the TCS regionals, ESC/profile/programming now plays a huge part in the performance of your motor and its efficiency. Also in 17.5 we are now gearing towards 3.4-3.5 final drive ratio...and I'm assuming with 21.5 guys will be reaching for 3.0 ish (correct me if I'm wrong) and that would just be insane to look at your spur gear nearly the same size as the pinion gear So if we do go 21.5, maybe there's some way we can restrict gear ratio as well. Just a thought...I could be completely wrong here

Steve Wang
Brushless could be a way to go to eliminate the silver can debate, but now there are timing speed controls and crazy huge pinion gears. The gearing's a non issue in mini but GT-3 is affected.

It would be interesting if Tamiya came out with their own BL system that would be competitive with silver cans, if not a hair faster, so that people can use them in their own club racing and also so that people who are trying to cut costs and people who cry, "think of the children!" can still use them be somewhat appeased. Although...other than in spec novice, I don't see much "cost cutting" going on...

As I put my flame suit on, I realize there is no perfect solution. Somebody, somewhere will find a reason to umm...react.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:47 PM
  #11252  
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As I put my flame suit on, I realize there is no perfect solution. Somebody, somewhere will find a reason to umm...react.
Not perfect, but pretty darn near, if you ask me- and not too pricey, either. And I do NOT smell like butt.

For Mini, Tamiya could use a 17.5 brushess motor & spec ESC that they sell under their brand name. I'm sure manufacturers would line up to have their product sold under the Tamiya brand if they haven't already. Tamiya motor, Tamiya ESC, Orion battery packs- voila! I would DEFINITELY be up for that. Sure, there's an investment but anybody who races Mini seriously already puts money into their car/batteries/electronics/motor every year. The guys Down Under are already there and loving it with their EZ setup. I think it's time to join them.

The Wangster made a good point about gearing in the sedan classes. Easy solution for GT3 is to- again, under the Tamiya Brand Name- sell a brushless spec motor/esc combo. Then- and here's the BRILLIANT part- combine that with a color-coded spur and pinion (red? yellow? green?) that equates to the approved FDR for the most common chassis- say a TA05. If you have to do two of them to accommodate the different internal ratios for different 05's, so be it.

Anyway, just some random thoughts on the eve of my 58th birthday. After more than 20 years doing this stuff, still love the sport.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:59 PM
  #11253  
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Anyway, just some random thoughts on the eve of my 58th birthday. After more than 20 years doing this stuff, still love the sport.
OLD GUYS RULES,,HAPPY BIRTHDAY,, MR. DOC MERTES

ALL 20 years have been a pleasure!!!!
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:08 PM
  #11254  
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Cool ~ D O C ~ WHO ?

~ Well then Happy Birthday eve there Doc . . . . . 20th ha ha !

save me a Red Dot Please !


~ I'm just saying ~
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:52 PM
  #11255  
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Not perfect, but pretty darn near, if you ask me- and not too pricey, either. And I do NOT smell like butt.

For Mini, Tamiya could use a 17.5 brushess motor & spec ESC that they sell under their brand name. I'm sure manufacturers would line up to have their product sold under the Tamiya brand if they haven't already. Tamiya motor, Tamiya ESC, Orion battery packs- voila! I would DEFINITELY be up for that. Sure, there's an investment but anybody who races Mini seriously already puts money into their car/batteries/electronics/motor every year. The guys Down Under are already there and loving it with their EZ setup. I think it's time to join them.

The Wangster made a good point about gearing in the sedan classes. Easy solution for GT3 is to- again, under the Tamiya Brand Name- sell a brushless spec motor/esc combo. Then- and here's the BRILLIANT part- combine that with a color-coded spur and pinion (red? yellow? green?) that equates to the approved FDR for the most common chassis- say a TA05. If you have to do two of them to accommodate the different internal ratios for different 05's, so be it.

Anyway, just some random thoughts on the eve of my 58th birthday. After more than 20 years doing this stuff, still love the sport.
doc.. great post! tamiya has a rebadged LRP TC Sphere esc. oh yah, happy birthday. see you in less than two months at Nats!
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Not perfect, but pretty darn near, if you ask me- and not too pricey, either. And I do NOT smell like butt.
Good post and yeah, you don't smell like butt, but some people in here do

Originally Posted by rccardr
Tamiya motor, Tamiya ESC, Orion battery packs- voila! I would DEFINITELY be up for that.
Sounds like Tamiya has *something* in the works:
RC Tamiya Brushless Motor-01 - 18T (TBLM-01) Item#54181
Tamiya Brushless ESC 01 TBLE-01 (Item 54038) is required.

but who really knows...

Originally Posted by rccardr
anybody who races Mini seriously already puts money into their car/batteries/electronics/motor every year.
yep, that's obvious if you walk around the pits...and what better to add to "Tamiya only" parts than "Tamiya only" running gear Yeah, yeah, people gripe about the draconian Tamiya ways of only Tamiya this and that, but guess what...they still do it, they still have fun, so deal with it!

For the sedan and GT-3, yeah it might be slow and may or may not catch on with club racing, but if you think about it, isn't that the premise for 21.5 VTA and "slow down" racing that even noobs should be competitive in? (But they really aren't because of experts in there too, but that's another topic.) And if it's too slow/boring...that's because it's for beginner/intermediates that have graduated from spec novice! That's what I read from the rules anyways...My point is, the gear should be useful not only in TCS races, who for many is but only once or twice a year, but club racing as well.

As a side note, looking at some of the GT-3 times from this past TCS, the top GT-3 times were faster than the lower GT-2 times. That's a great testament to their driving and kudos to them for that, but it kinda made me wonder.

And about the color coded gears, not sure how that would affect the TB-03 guys but hey, it's a start!
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stitchy
As a side note, looking at some of the GT-3 times from this past TCS, the top GT-3 times were faster than the lower GT-2 times. That's a great testament to their driving and kudos to them for that, but it kinda made me wonder.

And about the color coded gears, not sure how that would affect the TB-03 guys but hey, it's a start!
For the TB-03 guys it would be a pain in the rear to show the color coded gears and then get the rear gear casings on the car before the qualifier starts. It can be done, but probably best if you bring power tools with you to tech

At the risk of sounding like an idiot and getting stoned to death, I really believe slower racing is more fun racing. Which I believe is a major component as to why the Mini Cooper class consistently have the biggest turn-out at all the TCS regional races. Guys like racing side by side, and for the most part, 13.5 and beyond speed is really too fast for most guys to keep under control for a full five minutes (I'll be the first to admit, I can't do it) and to be honest, it's kinda "out of scale" too as far as how fast these things are traveling. GT-3 type speeds allow the guys to have more control over their vehicle while racing side by side, and be able to do this for probably a good majority of the 5 minute main (or 8 minutes as it was this past regional) and in some ways, it help controls the cost too (no need to buy new ESC to have the latest and greatest profile/software, less tire wear...etc.)

I think a hand-out silver can where you are assigned two motors (need one for backup in case one goes "kaput" on the first run) at the nats might be a good way to control the "voodoo magic" done to the motors. You collect them say within 2 heats after your qualifier, and pick them up to install in your car in front of the tech guys like they did last year. This does not allow guys enough time in the pits to tune the crap out of them (although some of you might miss this part), and keep the factors to winning more on the track (driving, setups...etc.) then in the pits (tuning motors over and over).

* puts on flame suit and running now*

Steve
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:10 PM
  #11258  
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Happy B-Day Doc.

Originally Posted by rccardr
Not perfect, but pretty darn near, if you ask me- and not too pricey, either. And I do NOT smell like butt.

For Mini, Tamiya could use a 17.5 brushess motor & spec ESC that they sell under their brand name. I'm sure manufacturers would line up to have their product sold under the Tamiya brand if they haven't already. Tamiya motor, Tamiya ESC, Orion battery packs- voila! I would DEFINITELY be up for that. Sure, there's an investment but anybody who races Mini seriously already puts money into their car/batteries/electronics/motor every year. The guys Down Under are already there and loving it with their EZ setup. I think it's time to join them.

The Wangster made a good point about gearing in the sedan classes. Easy solution for GT3 is to- again, under the Tamiya Brand Name- sell a brushless spec motor/esc combo. Then- and here's the BRILLIANT part- combine that with a color-coded spur and pinion (red? yellow? green?) that equates to the approved FDR for the most common chassis- say a TA05. If you have to do two of them to accommodate the different internal ratios for different 05's, so be it.

Anyway, just some random thoughts on the eve of my 58th birthday. After more than 20 years doing this stuff, still love the sport.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:29 PM
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The Canadian TCS runs a spec battery and spec gearing for GT2 and GT3 all the time....I think its a good rule.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by teamstrc
At the risk of sounding like an idiot and getting stoned to death*... puts on flame suit and running now*

Steve
<picks up rock> just kidding, Steve

Good point about the two can system used at Nats last year. It made for some of the closest and most fun racing I've ever seen. That system does however, require more manpower, keeping track of motors, eyeballing racers with magic tricks in their pockets, etc.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:44 AM
  #11261  
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For me, I like racing mini because it's less expensive. The chassis is reasonably priced, a lot of hop ups are not too expensive, many drivers do very well with limited hop ups, and silver cans are cheap. I know the advantages of the brushless systems.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:59 AM
  #11262  
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I do enjoy the debate going on here. Let me throw a few quick points out:

1. while the Tamiya branded esc and motor would be cool, it would not really work. There is a fine line between good rules for TCS and also using rules that allow the stuff you buy for TCS to be used in other races and series. In addition, it would be very tough to convince the company to agree to license with someone to produce a brushless motor and esc for us that would be for the U.S. TCS series. We could not justify telling people to buy a $200 brushless unit that would not be good for anything besides TCS.

2. spec gearing is also a good idea but the amount of people we have that can work an event, or that a store has to work an event, would really not allow this to be done. As it is, it was VERY hard to do even in only the spec class. Having that in GT classes would take too long and require too many people

3. changing all classes to brushless is an idea that had been thrown around before, but at the start of the season, we got rid of GT3 and people were up in arms about being forced to buy brushless systems so we added it back in.

Obviously next season is a new season and we can revisit the rules then. I just wanted to give you food for thought.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CarKing
I do enjoy the debate going on here. Let me throw a few quick points out:

1. while the Tamiya branded esc and motor would be cool, it would not really work. There is a fine line between good rules for TCS and also using rules that allow the stuff you buy for TCS to be used in other races and series. In addition, it would be very tough to convince the company to agree to license with someone to produce a brushless motor and esc for us that would be for the U.S. TCS series. We could not justify telling people to buy a $200 brushless unit that would not be good for anything besides TCS.

2. spec gearing is also a good idea but the amount of people we have that can work an event, or that a store has to work an event, would really not allow this to be done. As it is, it was VERY hard to do even in only the spec class. Having that in GT classes would take too long and require too many people

3. changing all classes to brushless is an idea that had been thrown around before, but at the start of the season, we got rid of GT3 and people were up in arms about being forced to buy brushless systems so we added it back in.

Obviously next season is a new season and we can revisit the rules then. I just wanted to give you food for thought.
i say let the kids run wild during the regionals... then implement these ideas for Nats.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:40 AM
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Hey Doc

Happy birthday....... Hope to you see at the Nats again . Take care and enjoy your day.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
Will you be runing the Fiat on the M05 for Nats?
Yeah probably I still have my M04 if the track being resurfaced is good enough I might run that
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