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Old 07-04-2009, 10:50 PM
  #11236  
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Originally Posted by 240Z
So what is the verdict? Is my F103 worth about the same as my F103GT now?
I got to run the car some more today, thanks to my LHS. And no, your F103 is worth a LOT more than your (and my) F103GT. (BTW, some nitro-sedan foam premounts do wonders for an F103GT.) I also had the pleasure of trying to run my F103 with Dave Jun, who got his F103 out of the box and blew the dust off and had several fun runs. He has some interesting ideas about Johnson motors and the F103.
I put a regular-size, good quality servo on my F104 after yesterday's destruction of a micro-servo. (If I ever try to run a micro on that car again, it'll have to have lots of torque and metal gears.) I did manage to get in five good runs on the car. Several other people showed up with F104's today too. Henry (don't know the gentleman's last name, must find out!) ran his with a stock paint scheme--and a 13.5 brushless! Was achieving light-speed down the straight, but was, well, loose in the infield.
Gentleman racer "TC", who won last weekend's raffle-prize F104, got it put together and brought it out for a few runs. I took some more shots; besides a very interesting paint scheme, he also outlined the edges of his diffuser in yellow paint! Let's see the big boys do that one.
The F104 is responsive to changes; it starts out at Tamiya's track with a Johnson (or black-can Mabuchi, which I also tried) as very pushy. I tried softer front springs, got progressively stiffer with the spring on the shock (started with the old M04 gold--very soft--spring and went up to an "old" yellow by the end of the day), turned up the stiffness on the damper discs, and tried a little toe-out in the steering. All these helped. I ran the T-plate with the O-ring screw two turns from full-tight--that's pretty soft, actually. I actually had to raise the rear ride height from where I started, because I had put old F101/GTP prototype 2mm spacers between the pod and the undertray and it was dragging the T-plate. Removing them helped.
The car is also very forgiving over bumps, even though the chassis is so stiff, and is not upset by the curbs or metal dots--payoff for those big, 10th-scale-size tires and wheels. The rubber front and rear is actually pretty soft, and does grip Tamiya's surface with little trouble.
But my F103 is faster down the straight, because it's lighter, and it will outturn this car in the tight stuff all day. So don't anybody throw away your F103's yet. Besides, since so many of these F104 rear pod parts are interchangeable with the F103, I see a considerable future ahead for the old girl. Tamiya HR guy Brian Matteson came by today with his car; due to his connections he has the aluminum rear pod bulkheads. They are SWEET! And I want very much to get the F104 rear diff parts and put them on my F103.
Attached Thumbnails Tamiya Championship Series-f104-05.jpg   Tamiya Championship Series-f104-06.jpg   Tamiya Championship Series-f104-07.jpg  
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:56 PM
  #11237  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
I bought the Red Dots for the same reason you did, but I just think the whole business of tuning silvercans is a direct contradiction to the concept of the motor.
Why 3? 1 for F1, 1 for when I thought I was going to run GT3, and a backup.
Yes Whippler is very smart, and im not saying his motors were untouched, but after traveling with him to many TCS races, including the nats the year he won, I can tell you that the motor was not the center of his program. He has put together a mini chassis that to this day has people scratching their heads, and he is a damn good driver to boot. Not a love in, just giving credit where its due
You and I agree completely although you are under the impression that we do not. My fault entirely for not expressing more clearly the point I was trying to make. The point was, IF, IF you are going to set an rpm limit, that it be low enough that there would be little or no advantage to messing with the motors. My suggestion was that it be 12.8k @ 5v cause almost all of the motors with the water dip break in the average racer would do would yield a motor in the 12.5k range.

The other main point was that a 13.5k limit was really dumb. One reason was that it gave the motor men too much room. Here's why. To pass a 13.5k standard, you tune to 13.8k, put a fan on to cool the motor, and at the post race tech, it'll pass easily. An extra thousand or so rpm is a huge advantage. Don't set an rpm limit under the pretense of leveling the playing field, then set it where it will not be.

There are only a few places that will be able to establish an rpm limit, which is fine. The no rpm limit races are great also. I personally like these races so I can see what the motor wizards can do. Frankly, it's pretty damned amazing.

We only disagree on one thing. My reason for getting my Red Dots was curiosity. Messin with motors for me is a hobby within a hobby. My first experience with a Doc Mertes tuned motor just blew me away. I'm a big fan of his and of the Red Dot motors. Most of the people who know how to make these things go fast usually make them for themselves and for a few friends. With the Red Dot motors anyone who wants a fast motor can get one as you did. A good thing. Right?????
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:56 PM
  #11238  
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Originally Posted by lightfoot
Got to keep up with the Jones Tim

So whats the deal with rubber tires on these cars, is anyone making them yet ? I was able to get rear rubber from a 103 on a buddies 104 today, but the front tires were binding pretty bad... I am so close to getting one... they look soooooo nice...
I forgot to comment on the tire wear today. I set up the front end with the 1-degree of camber setting. (Cannot wait for some hop-up options to add more front camber.) Front tire wear was exceptional: after five runs, the tires are not "coning", they are square. I'd grind off/round off the edges with my truer, but that'd take away steering. Rear wear was also quite good too; only about 3 mm after 5 runs. And I'm a guy who can wear a set of F103 kit rears down to too-small after four runs.
I know the Japanese companies are gearing up to offer more foam-tire choices. I am hoping Tamiya will bring out some different rim designs soon, especially some molded in gold for we tifosi who cheer on the Cavallino Rampante. At least these black rims are a nylon compound that is reasonably stiff but not fragile.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:31 PM
  #11239  
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Originally Posted by Granpa
You and I agree completely although you are under the impression that we do not. My fault entirely for not expressing more clearly the point I was trying to make. The point was, IF, IF you are going to set an rpm limit, that it be low enough that there would be little or no advantage to messing with the motors. My suggestion was that it be 12.8k @ 5v cause almost all of the motors with the water dip break in the average racer would do would yield a motor in the 12.5k range.

The other main point was that a 13.5k limit was really dumb. One reason was that it gave the motor men too much room. Here's why. To pass a 13.5k standard, you tune to 13.8k, put a fan on to cool the motor, and at the post race tech, it'll pass easily. An extra thousand or so rpm is a huge advantage. Don't set an rpm limit under the pretense of leveling the playing field, then set it where it will not be.

There are only a few places that will be able to establish an rpm limit, which is fine. The no rpm limit races are great also. I personally like these races so I can see what the motor wizards can do. Frankly, it's pretty damned amazing.

We only disagree on one thing. My reason for getting my Red Dots was curiosity. Messin with motors for me is a hobby within a hobby. My first experience with a Doc Mertes tuned motor just blew me away. I'm a big fan of his and of the Red Dot motors. Most of the people who know how to make these things go fast usually make them for themselves and for a few friends. With the Red Dot motors anyone who wants a fast motor can get one as you did. A good thing. Right?????
Im not disagreeing with you at all.
I just think the whole thing is stupid. There are probably ways to get some advantage out of a brushless motor, but I will tell you there is far less benefit in trying to do so. And from what I have seen and raced, brushless makes for some really good racing. When I say brushless, I am referring to the 17.5's that we ran in GT2. I made the A at Trackside, even if I was 10th qualifier, after a year of not driving I put the car in the show. When Lee came up to lap me( and he did so a few times) I could hang with him for about a half a lap, then he would disappear for a while. My point? Lee is a top shelf driver and has great equipment, but the motor wasnt what made him faster than me, and most of the cars in the GT2 main at Trackside were fairly even when it came to horsepower. Any minor difference in speed more than likely was due to gearing selection and maybe speed control profile. Doc gave me some really good power with the Red Dots that I bought, and for me it was worth it to not have to mess with trying to build a good motor. I would prefer to run brushless so there is no maintenance at all. The only other class I run is F1 and I would love to see it go to 21.5
I just think its time to move the rest of TCS into the 21st century
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
Im not disagreeing with you at all.
I just think the whole thing is stupid. There are probably ways to get some advantage out of a brushless motor, but I will tell you there is far less benefit in trying to do so. And from what I have seen and raced, brushless makes for some really good racing. When I say brushless, I am referring to the 17.5's that we ran in GT2. I made the A at Trackside, even if I was 10th qualifier, after a year of not driving I put the car in the show. When Lee came up to lap me( and he did so a few times) I could hang with him for about a half a lap, then he would disappear for a while. My point? Lee is a top shelf driver and has great equipment, but the motor wasnt what made him faster than me, and most of the cars in the GT2 main at Trackside were fairly even when it came to horsepower. Any minor difference in speed more than likely was due to gearing selection and maybe speed control profile. Doc gave me some really good power with the Red Dots that I bought, and for me it was worth it to not have to mess with trying to build a good motor. I would prefer to run brushless so there is no maintenance at all. The only other class I run is F1 and I would love to see it go to 21.5
I just think its time to move the rest of TCS into the 21st century
I agree with you 110%
Brushless is the way to go...

People I talk to who belong to the brushed side of the argument tell me that it's cheaper and easier... well.. to have a competitive silver can, your paying around what ? $40...$50... ?? A brushless does cost slightly more... but you buy it over the counter, drop it in your car and forget about it... maybe oil the bearing inside once a year ? What could be easier...

The motor is a lot more flexible, longer run times without overheating...

But I do understand people who enjoy the "tweaking the motor" as part of the hobby... Thats something different...

Most people who will not let go of the brushed motor are those who either have sooo much invested in the equipment ( dyno, brushes, armatures, you name it... ) or they have years and years of knowledge on how to tweak the things and are afraid to loose there advantage... I could be wrong, but thats just the way it seems...
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:25 AM
  #11241  
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I would like to see the silver can classes go brushless

It won't end the controversy (people will then bi%$h about speed controls, batteries, etc.) but I think in the long run it will make for better racing, as long as the brushless rules are done right the first time.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:03 PM
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GAY

Last edited by SirSwiftAlot; 07-06-2009 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:08 PM
  #11243  
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
****oh no you don't. Better behave Brandon. The person you are trying to start a fight with is a PERSONAL friend of mine.
Hey Brandon, How is the Fiat body? is it a s or m?
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
Hey Brandon, How is the Fiat body? is it a s or m?
Its an M and the swift is better I think but its new so it may take some time to get used to.
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
Its an M and the swift is better I think but its new so it may take some time to get used to.
Will you be runing the Fiat on the M05 for Nats?
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
I would like to see the silver can classes go brushless

It won't end the controversy (people will then bi%$h about speed controls, batteries, etc.) but I think in the long run it will make for better racing, as long as the brushless rules are done right the first time.
I have to agree with you Doc!
A 21.5 would be great in GT3.
Dave
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:40 PM
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I have been runng the Fiat for a month or so and love it. It seems smaller and more agile than the Swift...kind of like an OG Coop...but more stable. No more Swifts for me!
Originally Posted by tamiyarcracer
Hey Brandon, How is the Fiat body? is it a s or m?
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dragracer72nova
I have to agree with you Doc!
A 21.5 would be great in GT3.
Dave
I'm not sure if it can be done, but if we are to go 21.5, we should spec the gear ratio too. I've been out of touch a bit with the latest and greatest in electronics, and having just ran the TCS regionals, ESC/profile/programming now plays a huge part in the performance of your motor and its efficiency. Also in 17.5 we are now gearing towards 3.4-3.5 final drive ratio...and I'm assuming with 21.5 guys will be reaching for 3.0 ish (correct me if I'm wrong) and that would just be insane to look at your spur gear nearly the same size as the pinion gear So if we do go 21.5, maybe there's some way we can restrict gear ratio as well. Just a thought...I could be completely wrong here

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Old 07-07-2009, 04:41 AM
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So when might we see the NAF2009 rules posted? I'd like to get some time to prepare.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
I have been runng the Fiat for a month or so and love it. It seems smaller and more agile than the Swift...kind of like an OG Coop...but more stable. No more Swifts for me!
for fans of the fiat... attached is a link to abarth porn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZOJtz79mA

http://www.flickr.com/photos/-eu/set...7617389650110/
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