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Old 06-30-2009, 07:56 AM
  #11191  
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Originally Posted by Mark G.
Does anyone know the difference between Tamiya part# 50570 and 50571?
These are "Hogan Lola T94/00 Honda body kits. Has anyone driven with this body, thoughts? Also what body type is this considered, C, M, T etc.? Worth the investment?
Hey Mark,

THe lola was and Indy car it shared a lot of the f103 parts, but it was longer, and had different tires if my memory serves me correctly. It also seems to me that when we ran F1 at my track that only 1 person liked the car.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:37 AM
  #11192  
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Originally Posted by Crashby
No one flamed you because you are making too much sense. My only concern with a 12.8 is that, in theory, the motor should get better the more you race it. What if you go on the track at 12.8 but when you come off the track it's at 13.0? Would you have a break in factor of 1%? If you are over 12.8 by more than 1%, your run does not count.

I also think another good idea is to have everyone swap motors for each qualifier and the main. You know, reach into a box and blindly pull out a motor and that is what goes in your car. Start off with testing a bunch so they are all around 12.8 but then everyone has the luck of the draw for each run. After your run, the motor gets checked, if it's over more than the 1% rule, the run does not count and the motor is replace with another 12.8 for the next round. Of course, I am talking about the Nationals. Most regional events would not have the manpower to do all of the testing after each round but some might. The trick would be that the same motor tester that tested the motors going into the pool, would need to be the same tester at the race.

Thank you much for the kind words. Here's some more data you might be interested in. I've water dipped well over a hundred motors just in the past few months to seat the brushes and have found the vast majority to be in the 12.2 to 12.5 range. There were very few "duds" and there were only 2 that were 12.8. There no motors that were over 12.8. The slowest motor was at 11.9. These were all recent stock motors and were the soft brush ones we've been getting lately. Someone gave me three to build that had an amber colored tubing on the motor leads and these had a harder brush cause they took upwards of 30 min.to seat the brushes. These seemed to test out the same, but on a sample of three motors, it's hard to tell.

Motors will generally test higher when warm or hot than they do when cold. That problem is simple, test when the motors cool off. Also, I can't speak to whether motors get faster as they become more worn, but I do suspect that it has more to with the bushings becoming looser than any variation in timing due to brush wear. If someone has a test sample of +10 motors that all got faster as they wore out, that would be interesting. Right now, I haven't worked on that as it hasn't been of any particular interest.
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:46 AM
  #11193  
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Originally Posted by SCD WldCrd
I would like to thank the Tamiya crew for an awesome program. Although I was a little bummed during the concourse judging nearly picked the Danica Patrick design of my F103... and the crowd was cheering for it to win. Is there some sort of controversy to it?

Just kidding. Anyway, I had a blast and I did win one of my qualifying. Hope to do it again.


------

@Mark -

C type:



M type:



I don't know where to even get the other Tamiya body types, M/C are easy though.

I went with the C because the M nose typically gets busted up easier, durability won me over considering the cost of these bodies.

One for u:



------

Thanx again to Tamiya and all the racers, could not have picked a better venue for my 1st non club level event.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:18 AM
  #11194  
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Thank you much for the kind words. Here's some more data you might be interested in. I've water dipped well over a hundred motors just in the past few months to seat the brushes and have found the vast majority to be in the 12.2 to 12.5 range. There were very few "duds" and there were only 2 that were 12.8. There no motors that were over 12.8. The slowest motor was at 11.9. These were all recent stock motors and were the soft brush ones we've been getting lately. Someone gave me three to build that had an amber colored tubing on the motor leads and these had a harder brush cause they took upwards of 30 min.to seat the brushes. These seemed to test out the same, but on a sample of three motors, it's hard to tell.

Motors will generally test higher when warm or hot than they do when cold. That problem is simple, test when the motors cool off. Also, I can't speak to whether motors get faster as they become more worn, but I do suspect that it has more to with the bushings becoming looser than any variation in timing due to brush wear. If someone has a test sample of +10 motors that all got faster as they wore out, that would be interesting. Right now, I haven't worked on that as it hasn't been of any particular interest.
For the Mini Mayhem event at Trackside a while ago, I also did the mass break in and testing of about 70 silver cans - all new boxed straight from Tamiya. After a 2 min water dip, bushing busted, clean out and lube, I dyno tested each one on a Famtom Dyno. The results were: Out of 70 motors, 2 were absolute duds. About 10 were up to 10% better than the median motor. None topped 13,300 rpm. The rest all tested out within 2-3% of each other on both RPM and torque. I kept the 10 best motors out of the event, and through out the 2 duds. The remaining 58 or so motors were then used for the event. We then proceeded to use a simple rule - use the motor for one round, place in a box, and draw another motor for the next round. I prepped several extra motors that were also in the box. If in a particular run one motor seems abnormally slow (or fast) on the track, in the race director's discretion, that motor could be pulled from further use in the event. If you make the draw from the box at tech, just before the heat, install at tech, no monkey business is likely. Made for some awesome close racing. This works best in a Reedy type format, where no one round determines the outcome. It also works well with a triple A main event. This works great for MINI's where everyone is running the same gearing - no overheating problems.

This takes a bit of pre race work by someone, but then makes for an easy race event. No motor testing needed during the event.

For a class where gearing is variable, however, the variation in the motors over time would increase, as some contestants might overgear/overheat a motor for a round.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:19 AM
  #11195  
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I saw the question but no replies:

DID ANYONE RUN the M05? Comments on its performance against the M03?
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:23 AM
  #11196  
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It time to make airline reservations for TCS Nationals.

Does anyone in authority know whether we will be seeing the same event week schedule as last year. Practice allowed only on Thursday & Friday, 8/27 and 8/28? Or will we have a different schedule?
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:24 AM
  #11197  
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Default Controversy? What controversy?

Originally Posted by SCD WldCrd
I would like to thank the Tamiya crew for an awesome program. Although I was a little bummed during the concourse judging nearly picked the Danica Patrick design of my F103... and the crowd was cheering for it to win. Is there some sort of controversy to it?

Just kidding. Anyway, I had a blast and I did win one of my qualifying. Hope to do it again.
Is that the second "Danica" paint scheme you've done? I seem to recall a T-type with that paint scheme coming out to Saturday practice several times this spring.
I've found the concours judges tend to like two things; the unusual (several years ago, they gave the F1 concours win to a Pokemon-decorated car) and details. I put tire logos on the tires; I also had rearview mirrors on the car. I overheard one of the judges admiring my Eddie Irvine helmet; I had decided not to do the Schumacher car in order to honor an old friend who's a big Irvine fan. My "interior" was admittedly not as detailed as I could have done; I should have spent more time on the cockpit and the driver's uniform.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:27 AM
  #11198  
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Originally Posted by minidriver
I saw the question but no replies:

DID ANYONE RUN the M05? Comments on its performance against the M03?
The M05 wasn't available in time for the race. Fred was showing off a newly-assembled one in tech, to lots of oohs and aahs. One of the top Mini-runners admired it and appreciated many of its details. So we don't know how it will perform against M03--yet.
Remember, they will share a gearbox, motor position, and a lot of hop-ups. Biggest detail differences besides the obvious (the rear-mounted servo) are the laydown-position of the front shocks compared to M03, and the rear mounting positions offered for the receiver and ESC.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:37 AM
  #11199  
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Originally Posted by Granpa

Where did those numbers come from???? I asked regarding the 15k limit and was told it came from testing. What testing??? Okay, let me tell you what I was told by the person who said he did the testing. The sample he tested was three, I repeat, THREE motors. No wonder the rpm limits were so dumb.

(I have to admit I was one of the people who helped with the establishment of the original 15k limit, as a result of work I was doing with a GT3. I had a motor that could pull 15.2K when cold, and 17 when hot. I think that vexed Fred a bit. He also knew from some of the TCS races earlier that year, back East, that there were people with larger RPM numbers on their motors. So he picked 15K as a lower number to reign those motors in. I don't know how many other motors Fred and "his people" tested. I admit also I don't know where the 13.5 number came from; maybe some of the other regular Mini runners can comment on that.
Of course, as an F1 runner, I like them not having an RPM limit. But just like in real F1, maybe we should have one.)


To the brushless advocates, I wasn't ruling that out as a solution. But, I've never owned one and will only admit to having touched one once.
I know that someone at Tamiya's Saturday sessions ran a 21.5 brushless this winter for a test. He said the car was a stone, and his Johnson motors were frankly faster.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:42 AM
  #11200  
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Originally Posted by Mark G.
In regards to all that responded to the F1 body question, thank you very much. I now have a better understanding of what is what, now to the web.

Regarding 8 minute mains, I am a BCR regular, I like their format;

F1 and RCGT are 7 minute qualifiers and 7 minute mains all others are 5 minutes for both qualifiers and mains.

Tom, based on the F1 "A" main (which was a spectacular race to watch) 9 minutes would of clinched it for you.
Thanks for the kind words. I am proud of the show we put on. Besides, Christian and his dad Alex are friends of mine. Catching him at the end was going to be easy; Christian admitted later his motor was getting tired, and mine wasn't. But passing him was going to be another matter. He has been doing a LOT of gas-car racing, and has learned a great deal of car control.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:50 AM
  #11201  
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I've water dipped well over a hundred motors just in the past few months to seat the brushes and have found the vast majority to be in the 12.2 to 12.5 range. There were very few "duds" and there were only 2 that were 12.8. There no motors that were over 12.8. The slowest motor was at 11.9.
Bob, my results have been somewhat different than yours, but mostly in terms of RPM after break-in. Using our proprietary break-in process, we've been seeing no real duds at all (slowest a 12.4), with most of them in the 12.9-13.1 range and about 10-15% being true 13.5's. This seems to be the case with both the hard brush (white pip) and soft brush (red pip) cores, although the hard ones do take longer to break in, as you have noted.

Someone gave me three to build that had an amber colored tubing on the motor leads and these had a harder brush cause they took upwards of 30 min.to seat the brushes. These seemed to test out the same, but on a sample of three motors, it's hard to tell.
If you mean that the clear protective tubing on the bullet ends was amber, those are simply older two slot motors - the amber color is due to age. We still see them from time to time and so far they have all been hard brush motors. Aside from their age, they seem no faster or slower than the rest.

Motors will generally test higher when warm or hot than they do when cold. That problem is simple, test when the motors cool off.
Generally, yes...but not always. One could also set a marginally higher RPM limit and test them when warm.

Also, I can't speak to whether motors get faster as they become more worn, but I do suspect that it has more to with the bushings becoming looser than any variation in timing due to brush wear. If someone has a test sample of +10 motors that all got faster as they wore out, that would be interesting. Right now, I haven't worked on that as it hasn't been of any particular interest.
As usual, you are absolutely on target here, Bob. Motors get faster when used only if the bushings are not completely broken in. We have not yet seen any examples of timing change due to brush wear, and our test sample is, shall we say, significantly greater than 10 units. However, we know that it is possible to manipulate the brush & spring to advance timing somewhat, which makes the motor accelerate a little more quickly out of the corners. We don't touch the brush or spring at Red Dot, as our tests have shown conclusively that doing so dramatically shortens the life of the motor- not something our customers want to see.

Bottom line here is that there is no true easy answer to the Great Silver Can Question. We ran a very successful series this past year called Senior Spec, where we supplied matched handout Red Dot 15K motors that were drawn blind each week (and sometimes redrawn after the qualifiers). It would work very well in Mini due to the fixed gearing and we are contemplating doing that in the Fall after the weather gets cooler and racers go back indoors. The cars are faster than with box stock motors but not as fast as full race Red Dots, so they're a little easier to drive and there's no way to increase the RPM while they're in the cars. The motors easily lasted an entire season.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:02 PM
  #11202  
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We have a decent class of F1 cars at the local track, so I have also broken in a lot of motors for guys. One thing i am noticing is that reverse polarity break in, in water with an pumice type hand cleaner added, will produce motors averaging 12.5K to 13K most of the time. These motors are also gaining RPM as they run.

I think the 13,500 limit is fine since you can get close a majority of the time with a pretty simple break in. I have had dud motors, and ones that went over 13K by a decent amount as well, but most seem to come at a competitive level to 13500.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:16 PM
  #11203  
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I know most of you don’t pay much attention to the spec class but, the past few months most every time I made it down to the AV track I saw Donnie with his Dad wrenching on the TT-01 as they prepped for his first race. It seems like all the regulars took the two of them under their wing with tips and suggestions and it gave me a warm fuzzy to see it happen every time it did. At 6 years old, Donnie has car control and desire like I have never seen in a kid his age. In fact, I have yet to see ANY 6 year old that can do much with RC cars other than lock to lock turns at full throttle till they hit the wall. But not Donnie, and he started out Saturday with the eye of the tiger. However, by the end of Sunday he was wearing the same look that you can see on most any race driver who just did not quite have the machinery or conditions to make the podium but gave it their all and did not have anything left. As he sat there with that defeated look, I gave him a “thumbs up” and a “good job” and just for a split second, he cracked a quick smile and returned the gesture. Yea, I think he will be back for more.

IMHO Tamiya needs to add another award at the end of every TCS to recognize and encourage an effort above and beyond. It needs to be an award of true value, mostly because it is a value that is too often not directly rewarded. If Tamiya had such a thing, I know Donnie would get my vote for the “TCS sportsman” award.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 240Z
I know most of you don’t pay much attention to the spec class but, the past few months most every time I made it down to the AV track I saw Donnie with his Dad wrenching on the TT-01 as they prepped for his first race. It seems like all the regulars took the two of them under their wing with tips and suggestions and it gave me a warm fuzzy to see it happen every time it did. At 6 years old, Donnie has car control and desire like I have never seen in a kid his age. In fact, I have yet to see ANY 6 year old that can do much with RC cars other than lock to lock turns at full throttle till they hit the wall. But not Donnie, and he started out Saturday with the eye of the tiger. However, by the end of Sunday he was wearing the same look that you can see on most any race driver who just did not quite have the machinery or conditions to make the podium but gave it their all and did not have anything left. As he sat there with that defeated look, I gave him a “thumbs up” and a “good job” and just for a split second, he cracked a quick smile and returned the gesture. Yea, I think he will be back for more.

IMHO Tamiya needs to add another award at the end of every TCS to recognize and encourage an effort above and beyond. It needs to be an award of true value, mostly because it is a value that is too often not directly rewarded. If Tamiya had such a thing, I know Donnie would get my vote for the “TCS sportsman” award.
i had a thought about this... we had a fairly short day (both days actually). maybe Fred can add 1 or 2 rounds for the spec guys so they can get more track time? keep that class going since they ARE the future of TCS.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:58 PM
  #11205  
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Originally Posted by 240Z

IMHO Tamiya needs to add another award at the end of every TCS to recognize and encourage an effort above and beyond. It needs to be an award of true value, mostly because it is a value that is too often not directly rewarded. If Tamiya had such a thing, I know Donnie would get my vote for the “TCS sportsman” award.
I agree, something I had thought about saying but never did.

Peace Aaron(W-W)
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