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Old 03-31-2009, 06:55 AM
  #10651  
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First off let me state that I run brushless/lipo my VTA and 12th scale. But until Tamiya puts them in their Mini or F103 kit(s) they should not change.
Brushless is not the cure, with adjustable timing and "RPM increasing speed controls" you will NEVER make them equal. A prepared motor is waaay less expensive than a brushless system.
The people that are fast are the ones that work on their cars. The better drivers will always be the better drivers. The ones that know how to set-up a car will always have the better handling car.
Just my opinion...... flame on............
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:15 AM
  #10652  
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Originally Posted by Stuart Pid
First off let me state that I run brushless/lipo my VTA and 12th scale. But until Tamiya puts them in their Mini or F103 kit(s) they should not change.
Brushless is not the cure, with adjustable timing and "RPM increasing speed controls" you will NEVER make them equal. A prepared motor is waaay less expensive than a brushless system.
The people that are fast are the ones that work on their cars. The better drivers will always be the better drivers. The ones that know how to set-up a car will always have the better handling car.
Just my opinion...... flame on............
+1

If you're that worried about equality then just do a blind draw for motors and install them in tech, just like the Mini Mayhem or Senior Spec Races...
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:35 AM
  #10653  
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Just to question the being a better driver makes you faster theory. I work on my cars and i believe that I do a good job setting them up to compete.

This past weekends TCS race, in the Mini A2, I found myself in first place on the first lap. Anybody watching could see that my car was hooked and I was driving the wheels off it. Unfortunately I did not have a good motor like the rest of the top cars. Maybe I should have worked on my motor more instead of working on my set up. I would gain a sizable lead on the technical field, but as I entered the straight my ten foot lead would shrink to inches. I could only keep defending my position for a short time without taking the other drivers out in the process. Motor was definitely a factor in my performance during that race.

Now, I'm not complaining, I had a great time while it lasted. I'm not saying that brushless is the only answer, but after having it in my touring cars, I kind of have a personal opinion about it now.

Brushless should at least be considered.

Just as in teching the Johnson motors, rules can be set to only allow certain speed controls (yes, the ones that can not be adjusted) and motors with set timing (does everyone know you can do this?).

One other answer might be a blind draw for the Johnson motor. I attended the Mini Mayhem in 07 and that seemed to even things out nicely.

Not sure what the complete answer might be but I just had to share my experience.

Some times motors do make the race. Just my 2 cents worth. Thanks

Last edited by CSeils; 04-01-2009 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:45 AM
  #10654  
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Ok this will be my ONLY comment on the "let's go brushless" topic:

As for putting brushless in GT3, we did that earlier this year. We had no GT3 and only GT2 and GT1 because having a 17.5 class and a 21.5 class to us was pointless, and plenty of people complained about not having a silvercan sedan class. So we caved when we got enough feedback and brought GT3 with silvercans back.

For putting it in mini and F103; this is another thing we wanted to do, but the issue we are facing is these supposed "entry level" classes need to have low entry level costs to get new racers in. When you say go buy a kit for $150 then spend another $100 on a brushless motor and speedo, it no longer attracts the same new drivers. The majority of people still are not ready for the change to brushless.

Also, as it has been stated, brushless is not the end all be all. I myself would LOVE every class to br brushless only, but at this point there are enough people to keep that from happening. We would also love to see the end of people spending $50 for a tweaked silvercan motor for a TCS race, hence one of the reasons we do RPM limits.

As for the "blind draw" method, this idea was tossed around, but we did not want someone else's race to be dictated by how the driver before them took care of their motor. This is something that will not happen in TCS this season.

I hope you guys can see where we stand. If you have any questions, please give Customer Service a call regarding the rules or any input you may have.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:53 AM
  #10655  
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Originally Posted by AaronR
Good call to those few who can communicate to and encourage each other on the driver stand.

Thanks to everyone from Tamiya and Trackside to make this past weekend happen! I had alot of fun!
+1
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:12 AM
  #10656  
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Originally Posted by CarKing
Ok this will be my ONLY comment on the "let's go brushless" topic:

As for putting brushless in GT3, we did that earlier this year. We had no GT3 and only GT2 and GT1 because having a 17.5 class and a 21.5 class to us was pointless, and plenty of people complained about not having a silvercan sedan class. So we caved when we got enough feedback and brought GT3 with silvercans back.
YUP, I totally agree here. The current SPEC, GT3, GT2, and GT1 class structure is actually pretty ideal. Silver cans for those who like that stuff, 17.5 for those who dont want to deal with motors, and 13.5 for the fast guys.

Originally Posted by CarKing
For putting it in mini and F103; this is another thing we wanted to do, but the issue we are facing is these supposed "entry level" classes need to have low entry level costs to get new racers in. When you say go buy a kit for $150 then spend another $100 on a brushless motor and speedo, it no longer attracts the same new drivers. The majority of people still are not ready for the change to brushless.
I think the results show that these two classes are far from entry level classes. As a future F103 participant, 21.5/17.5 would be great to see. 21.5 in F103 would sure provide some ultra close open wheel racing for the fast guys, yet still be controllable for the less than experienced driver.

Originally Posted by CarKing
Also, as it has been stated, brushless is not the end all be all. I myself would LOVE every class to br brushless only, but at this point there are enough people to keep that from happening. We would also love to see the end of people spending $50 for a tweaked silvercan motor for a TCS race, hence one of the reasons we do RPM limits.
YUP

Originally Posted by CarKing
I hope you guys can see where we stand. If you have any questions, please give Customer Service a call regarding the rules or any input you may have.
Thanks for posting the info. The 201 entries this past weekend show you guys are doing something right (even with all the MADNESS this thread seems to generate) and I want to say thanks for all the hard work in keeping the series going in 2009 and beyond.

Jimmy
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:32 AM
  #10657  
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Wow, a weekend of racing. 23 hours of driving, 2 days of racing, and 2 wins - GT1 and F1 Met some old friends and met new ones - Disher and St. Amant.

What a difference a year makes. Last February at Trackside, Randy worked hard and ended up in the middle of the B main for both GT1 and GT2. Lots of practice, preparation, and a goal of coming back to be at least in the A main at Trackside.

I would like to thank:
  • Scotty for hosting a great triple A main TCS racing program. Luck and rough racing is reduced in triple A main racing.
  • Tamiya for putting on the best racing series. Randy first car and race was TCS - Laurel 2006. Please keep the AV track.
  • Bruce and Steve Hickman for F1 tips and being TCS rocks - attended all TCS events.
  • Ray K and the Red Dot Motor team for the F1 motor support services.
  • Don and Lee Passehl for a whole years worth of rubber on carpet tips and techniques.
  • David Vacek for raising a great buddy racer, Austin Vacek, and helping with the driving while we all slept.
  • All the racing buddies back at The Track (Gaithersburg, MD) and The Coliseum (Frederick, MD)


- Winning TRF 416 for sale
- Also TB EVO 5

http://www.rctech.net/forum/r-c-item...-tb-evo-v.html
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:47 AM
  #10658  
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Originally Posted by CarKing
Ok this will be my ONLY comment on the "let's go brushless" topic:

As for putting brushless in GT3, we did that earlier this year. We had no GT3 and only GT2 and GT1 because having a 17.5 class and a 21.5 class to us was pointless, and plenty of people complained about not having a silvercan sedan class. So we caved when we got enough feedback and brought GT3 with silvercans back.

For putting it in mini and F103; this is another thing we wanted to do, but the issue we are facing is these supposed "entry level" classes need to have low entry level costs to get new racers in. When you say go buy a kit for $150 then spend another $100 on a brushless motor and speedo, it no longer attracts the same new drivers. The majority of people still are not ready for the change to brushless.

Also, as it has been stated, brushless is not the end all be all. I myself would LOVE every class to br brushless only, but at this point there are enough people to keep that from happening. We would also love to see the end of people spending $50 for a tweaked silvercan motor for a TCS race, hence one of the reasons we do RPM limits.

As for the "blind draw" method, this idea was tossed around, but we did not want someone else's race to be dictated by how the driver before them took care of their motor. This is something that will not happen in TCS this season.

I hope you guys can see where we stand. If you have any questions, please give Customer Service a call regarding the rules or any input you may have.
+1 X 5
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:16 AM
  #10659  
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What a great weekend of racing. I think the 13,500 rpm limit on the silvercans made for some of the best racing in the F1/GT3/Mini/Spec I've seen in years. All cars were very close in top speed and chassis set up and driving was critical. It's nice to see silvercan motors straight out of the hobby shop competing with the best of the best.

I need to send a big CONGRADULATIONS to my son John for qualifying 3rd and finishing 3rd in all 3 A Mains in the very contested Spec Class...the 3rd A Main might have been the closest finish I've ever seen. Not bad for a 8 year old.....Way to go kid!! I also need to send props out to my buddy Mike for TQing Mini and finishing 3rd overall, and his son Grant(5 years old) for finishing all of his races in Spec class and keeping the car in one piece.

Congrats to all the winners of the other classes, you deserve it. 201 entries is as big or bigger than most national level events.

Great Job Everyone!! Thanks Trackside and Tamiya for the awesome racing!!
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:27 PM
  #10660  
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Originally Posted by CarKing

For putting it in mini and F103; this is another thing we wanted to do, but the issue we are facing is these supposed "entry level" classes need to have low entry level costs to get new racers in.
F1 is not, nor has ever been, an entry level class. That's the same theory some have had regarding 1/12-scale. Compared to a sedan, sure they're less expensive, but that doesn't mean there's a lessor skill set needed to drive them. If anything F1 is one of the classes where the driver's skill and talent truly comes to the forefront. You're so limited on tuning options versus a sedan that you need to be able to wheel it.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:49 PM
  #10661  
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Tamiya Brushless.... to solve some problems. I like that.

Just a little more than $100 but not bad.

http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/rc-bru...r-p-28425.html
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:11 PM
  #10662  
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Originally Posted by Markus
Tamiya Brushless.... to solve some problems. I like that.

Just a little more than $100 but not bad.

http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/rc-bru...r-p-28425.html
That looks pretty cool man!
I only wish Tamiya (Futaba) would use a better silicone insulator on the wires as it melts when you solder to it. And once and for all, GET RID OF THOSE IGNORANT BULLET PLUGS AND 2 PIN TAMIYA CONNECTORS! sheesh....
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:29 PM
  #10663  
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Originally Posted by Markus
Tamiya Brushless.... to solve some problems. I like that.

Just a little more than $100 but not bad.

http://www.rcmart.com/catalog/rc-bru...r-p-28425.html
Problem is that system there is Sensorless. Not nearly as smooth, but why it's less expensive as well.
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:33 PM
  #10664  
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Originally Posted by Stuart Pid
First off let me state that I run brushless/lipo my VTA and 12th scale. But until Tamiya puts them in their Mini or F103 kit(s) they should not change.
Brushless is not the cure, with adjustable timing and "RPM increasing speed controls" you will NEVER make them equal. A prepared motor is waaay less expensive than a brushless system.
The people that are fast are the ones that work on their cars. The better drivers will always be the better drivers. The ones that know how to set-up a car will always have the better handling car.
Just my opinion...... flame on............
We have already been through this issue with Trans Am racing. I can tell you everyone I talk to has come to see that brushless motors have made the competition fair and everybody gets to work on their cars more.

You buy 1 brushless motor, especially if you specify 1 or 2 brands.

All the current escs have some sort of timing control on them. Learn to use your esc's programming options, and you will be able to get what you want out of your motor. This does not require any secret knowledge, or voodoo. Just read the manual and try stuff.

I will say last weekend I thought i had a decent motor for F1. In the second qualifier, i went up one tooth and it laid down on me in the last minute or so, probably costing me a couple spots on the grid. I tried a different motor that wound up having a lot more RPM, and it made all the difference for the mains.

Motor makes a big difference, and coaxing performance out of a crappy drill motor is tedious and sucks. It is a lot easier to push buttons on an esc and try different gears. This is also available to anyone. It also does not require you to buy multiple motors to try to get something decent to work with.

Also, F1 is definitely not a beginner class, at least if you want to run at the front.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:12 PM
  #10665  
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Paying $45 for a "prepared" motor is less expensive than ANY brushless motor/esc out there. My "prepared motor has lasted me well over a year of racing and is still fast. Maybe brushless in F103, but not in Mini.
I agree that until the Mini kit comes with a brushless motor/esc combo it should remain silver can at Tamiya races.
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