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Old 03-01-2009, 08:30 PM
  #10426  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Hebiki - I am all for brushless vs black cans at Nats. I would rather have a brushless motor I can use later than two more black paper weights sitting on my workbench in September.

As for "seeing the difference" of those tweaked silver cans, I would say when someone can pull you 5-6 car lengths in GT-3 on the back straight at the '08 Nor Cal TCS (where there was no motor limit) vs. the same person qualifying behind you at the Aliso '08 Regional where there was a motor limit makes a pretty obvious statement better than any post on this thread can.
I remember pulling you the 5-6 car lengths in that race!
Devon still is asking us how we got 17,300 rpm @ 5v on that motor @ Aliso TCS?
I was only DQ'd because the motor did not meet the 15,000 rpm 5v rule.
Not because it was an illegal motor????
That's the difference in knowing how to get the most of given set of rules??
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:21 PM
  #10427  
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This silver can easily does 17k rpm, but it's not a kit motor -



It's just too hard to tell what's being run without a motor limit.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:23 AM
  #10428  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Hebiki - I am all for brushless vs black cans at Nats. I would rather have a brushless motor I can use later than two more black paper weights sitting on my workbench in September.

As for "seeing the difference" of those tweaked silver cans, I would say when someone can pull you 5-6 car lengths in GT-3 on the back straight at the '08 Nor Cal TCS (where there was no motor limit) vs. the same person qualifying behind you at the Aliso '08 Regional where there was a motor limit makes a pretty obvious statement better than any post on this thread can.
Originally Posted by hickmeister
I remember pulling you the 5-6 car lengths in that race!
Devon still is asking us how we got 17,300 rpm @ 5v on that motor @ Aliso TCS?
I was only DQ'd because the motor did not meet the 15,000 rpm 5v rule.
Not because it was an illegal motor????
That's the difference in knowing how to get the most of given set of rules??
Originally Posted by BobbyS
This silver can easily does 17k rpm, but it's not a kit motor -



It's just too hard to tell what's being run without a motor limit.
I think it would be easy to tell.. from what these first two guys said.. Were you cheating ?
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:01 AM
  #10429  
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With less then a month to go, when will registration be open for the Trackside race?
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:14 AM
  #10430  
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Originally Posted by CSeils
With less then a month to go, when will registration be open for the Trackside race?
Imagine Large Hooters on a Mini.....
Perspectives,
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:52 AM
  #10431  
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Fred, Andrew, Gary --- Thanks for doing your best to promote a "fun" racing series for RC enthusiasts to enjoy. This is my 16th year racing the series and Ive enjoyed every minute of it --- win, lose, or draw. I applaud your herculean efforts to make the racing "fun", and I respect your decisions regarding rules, cancellations, and race direction.

It must be difficult at times for you guys to read this thread, because of the amt of work you put into the series, amongst all of your other Tamiya duties. It appears as of late, there's been alot more complaining than "fun" here, and that's got to create frustration for you.

Rest assured, the majority of racers in your series show up to have "fun", and we enjoy the racing, comraderie, and technology that the TCS series promotes, whether we win, lose, spend more money than anyone else, have the wrong tires, or get passed by 10 car lengths on the back straight. Racers, in general, want to blame someone or something else for their lack of performance. (Maybe, if we all were to spend more time working on our cars and less tme at the keyboard, there wouldn't be so much time to complain)

Unfortunately, as with most other internet applications, some will distort this forum to grind their own ax. Whether it's complaining, whining, gloating, or trying to sell something on the wrong thread, I hope that Corporate Tamiya can maintain a positive perspective about it and keep this series alive and "fun". ( I can only imagine how to explain this thread to the corporate folks in Japan)

Thanks for all that you guys do to keep the series alive.

Anyone care to join me in Frederick for a TCS race?



bruce

Last edited by Doc; 03-02-2009 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:13 PM
  #10432  
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Well put'ed , Doc
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:29 PM
  #10433  
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant
I think it would be easy to tell.. from what these first two guys said.. Were you cheating ?
If you're asking me, no. But not everybody that is cheating is going to pull away from the pack and make it look obvious. Most know that a faster motor lets you make more mistakes because you can make it up in speed at any part of the track.

Last edited by BobbyS; 03-03-2009 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:34 PM
  #10434  
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Originally Posted by Doc
Fred, Andrew, Gary --- Thanks for doing your best to promote a "fun" racing series for RC enthusiasts to enjoy. This is my 16th year racing the series and Ive enjoyed every minute of it --- win, lose, or draw. I applaud your herculean efforts to make the racing "fun", and I respect your decisions regarding rules, cancellations, and race direction.

It must be difficult at times for you guys to read this thread, because of the amt of work you put into the series, amongst all of your other Tamiya duties. It appears as of late, there's been alot more complaining than "fun" here, and that's got to create frustration for you.

Rest assured, the majority of racers in your series show up to have "fun", and we enjoy the racing, comraderie, and technology that the TCS series promotes, whether we win, lose, spend more money than anyone else, have the wrong tires, or get passed by 10 car lengths on the back straight. Racers, in general, want to blame someone or something else for their lack of performance. (Maybe, if we all were to spend more time working on our cars and less tme at the keyboard, there wouldn't be so much time to complain)

Unfortunately, as with most other internet applications, some will distort this forum to grind their own ax. Whether it's complaining, whining, gloating, or trying to sell something on the wrong thread, I hope that Corporate Tamiya can maintain a positive perspective about it and keep this series alive and "fun". ( I can only imagine how to explain this thread to the corporate folks in Japan)

Thanks for all that you guys do to keep the series alive.

Anyone care to join me in Frederick for a TCS race?


bruce
I would agree with everything except the red print.

I tend to see the forum as a way to get the rules and gray areas understood. You would be surprised how worn out my keyboard is analyzing many things, logging tests and research before I buy and try it on the track. That is another subject full of many secrets which enhances my track-time.

On the "Johnson Motor" subject, everybody has a point of view or opinion. Tamiya does its best to keep this class alive by imposing amp/volt/rpm limits with militant strictness.

Are there cheats? Unfair Advantages? Trade Secrets? Mystery Motors?
You bet.

The point is GT3 is 1 of many classes, if you don't like it, there are others to choose from. I have a few friends that will "never, never, never" run this class due to the questions I listed, even if I prepared them each a motor. My motors are newer and much stronger than last year which is only a small part to winning races. Which I look forward to testing at the up in coming TCS races especially against the Hickman Hauler. . .
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Old 03-02-2009, 04:44 PM
  #10435  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
oh cool. i just assumed 21.5 would be better since the gearing limitation of a mini.

wasn't there a race of some sort at Trackside where minis had BL in them?

good way to introduce more ppl into BL with 17.5 since that'll double (legal for GT2 and other ROAR/club type racing) for two types of cars.
Yes, we ran minis at Trackside with 17.5's - great fun. Novak race. If I wasn't running Trans Am each week along with my sedan or now F103, I'd still be running 17.5 in the mini. (When I was a younger fool, I used to run 3 classes on local series nights, but that's too many classes for me to want to do at once anymore.)

Actually, it is because of the gearing limitation of a mini that you have to go with a 17.5 and not a 21.5. I did the testing before the class was created for the Novak - 17.5 gave roughly equivalent lap times to a good Johnson, the 13.5 was way too much motor for the chassis. Top RPM in a 21.5 is too low - the mini's get slower. 17.5 was chosen because it gave a top RPM at about the same level as a good Johnson/Mabucchi. 13.5 also had just too much grunt for the chassis to comfortably handle - both at top end and low end - tire wear would have also been way up. A 17.5 does have more low end grunt to be sure, however, than a silver can.
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Old 03-02-2009, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
oh cool. i just assumed 21.5 would be better since the gearing limitation of a mini.

wasn't there a race of some sort at Trackside where minis had BL in them?

good way to introduce more ppl into BL with 17.5 since that'll double (legal for GT2 and other ROAR/club type racing) for two types of cars.
There are clearly two schools of thoughts on brushless for mini. Pro - no more silver can wars. Con - you can buy a mini kit with ESC and motor included, and run without the expense of a brushless ESC and brushless motor - and that attracts those on a limited budget. I have talked with Fred before, suggested the 17.5 as the way to go, and I suspect that's why the initial rules for 2009 had a placeholder two possible mini classes - mini classic and mini (one for silver cans, one for brushless). I was a late convert to brushless in my sedan - didn't like the way it felt compared to a brushed stock motor (drag brake) but learned to adopt.

I do like the idea of brushless mini's in TCS. However, the more I learn about brushless, the more that I believe it definitely will not be the end all cure all of the motor war questions. The ESC then comes into question - a "stock" brushless ESC vs. a brushless ESC that can statically advance the timing electronically (Speed Passion 0- 24 degrees) vs. the newest "stock" specific ESC's that can dynamically advance timing (LRP SPX I believe). I don't own an LRP SPX currently (have not been all that thrilled with LRP support/longevity from past experience\discussions) but I would love to be able to experiment with it to see what a difference it would make with a given 17.5 using the comparison of a run of the mill brushless ESC. If what I hear is true, it is probably going to be similar to a run of the mill silver can vs. a Doc massaged "Red Dot" silver can differential in top speed.

I do have simple logistical problems on a silver can RPM limit - tech becomes a potential bottleneck / nightmare.

Thinking back to the OLD days (when 1400 SCR batteries were the Hot ticket) does give me this thought, however.

In the OLD days, each TCS participant (regionals and nationals) got a brand new gold wrapped 1700 "Tamiya" battery that they had to use for the entire event. Nice door prize / participation prize. A great handout, and eliminated battery wars. Now I suspect that the per unit cost of a silver can is actually VERY cheap, certainly far less than the cost of a 1700 battery pack. I would guess it is VERY cheap in quantity. Even though the economic times are tough, what about this: each TCS participant in a silver can class get one (and only one) silver can handed to them by Tamiya at the event - gratis. You get to use the motor for your heat,turn it in at the end of the heat, and get to keep your last one at the end. You get it to use just before your heat in tech, install it in tech, bullet plugs and all required. You run your race, and take the motor out and turn it into tech. The motor you use in the next round - totally random. You get the last one you use as a door prize at the end of the event. (My apologies to Doc - it would curtail his side business of Red Dots.) From my personal testing of 50+ silver cans in prep for a "draw a motor out of box" (Mini Mayhem) race, the variance between out of the box silver cans is nominal, in dyno testing 1-2 dogs out of 50 - just live with it for that heat. You come up to tech and are handed a random Tamiya suppliedd silver can to use for that heat. No taking it away to magnet zap, clean, replace, etc. Just put it in your car and use it. This rule would apply to any silver can class.

I see the idea as having many positives. Low cost. Stop the arguments about massaged motors, cheating with a silver can look alike that has fewer turns, etc. No hassle teching for RPM limits. Just have fun and race at Tamiya's motor expense . The only problem I see is the chassis that are an absolute pain in the ass to put a motor into quickly (my TB-03 comes to mind- it is an absolute b**** to replace the motor in). Those folks will simply have to plan ahead and get to tech early. For the rest of the chassis, putting in a motor, pinion and doing gear alignment is pretty quick/no-brainer. Tamiya's cost - very little - I would bet that a silver can costs them VERY little - certainly far less than a handout battery they use to give out. Apply this to all regional events - F103, GT3, Mini, rally, - whatever class uses a silver can.

I've gone on too long already - but would appreciate your thoughts.
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Old 03-02-2009, 06:10 PM
  #10437  
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That motor may have a red dot on it...but it is not a Red Dot motor (unless you happen to be the one guy I did a favor for a year or two ago). That appears to be a fairly current grey can Mabuchi.

Genuine World Famous Red Dot motors are all based on the Tamiya #53689 Johnson 540J and (as of this writing) are legal for TCS events. Each one is engraved with a unique number and has a red dot painted on the can above the positive lead for easy identification.
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Old 03-02-2009, 06:29 PM
  #10438  
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Originally Posted by minidriver
There are clearly two schools of thoughts on brushless for mini. Pro - no more silver can wars. Con - you can buy a mini kit with ESC and motor included, and run without the expense of a brushless ESC and brushless motor - and that attracts those on a limited budget. I have talked with Fred before, suggested the 17.5 as the way to go, and I suspect that's why the initial rules for 2009 had a placeholder two possible mini classes - mini classic and mini (one for silver cans, one for brushless). I was a late convert to brushless in my sedan - didn't like the way it felt compared to a brushed stock motor (drag brake) but learned to adopt.

I do like the idea of brushless mini's in TCS. However, the more I learn about brushless, the more that I believe it definitely will not be the end all cure all of the motor war questions. The ESC then comes into question - a "stock" brushless ESC vs. a brushless ESC that can statically advance the timing electronically (Speed Passion 0- 24 degrees) vs. the newest "stock" specific ESC's that can dynamically advance timing (LRP SPX I believe). I don't own an LRP SPX currently (have not been all that thrilled with LRP support/longevity from past experience\discussions) but I would love to be able to experiment with it to see what a difference it would make with a given 17.5 using the comparison of a run of the mill brushless ESC. If what I hear is true, it is probably going to be similar to a run of the mill silver can vs. a Doc massaged "Red Dot" silver can differential in top speed.
(for a nationals scenario).....coming up with a hybrid rule set may be the way to go. lipos might be the "hand out" battery at nats.. but with a little research, an RPM limit on silver cans along with 17.5 BL rules.. that should cover everyone?

the cream of the crop will rise to the top. im already hearing of people "saving tires thats made up of the "old" compound", etc... that a person who is running mini with a stock esc is there for fun. and the mini guy who wants to go to japan will have a good esc in his car (GTX, VFS-1, etc).

question now is... if Fred can get a deal on BL motors to make it worth someone's while to invest in a BL ESC. my plea is ... why NOT buy a BL esc? they can run both brushed and BL.
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Sweet, thanks man

1 other question. It looks like the only difference between the standard car's upper bulkhead and the IFS one is the mounting holes for the shock tower. Has anyone tried to use the STD bulkhead with the IFS car? Is there enough clearance under the body?
Gary,

Check your PM.
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:42 PM
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First let me say that this will be my 10th (gulp) TCS race at Trackside in March. I have nothing but great things to say about how the races have been/are run and the great support Tamiya gives its customers. Thank You everyone at Tamiya.

That said, I'd like to mention that I'm also on the brushless band wagon. 21.5 for GT3 and F1, 17.5 for Mini and GT2, and the 13.5 for GT1(I think with Mini, GT3, and F1 silver cans could be an option along with the brushless motors....the performance would be pretty close). Now, my silver can motor "program" is just fine and I'm not complaining at all, but I've seen the "leveling" effects of brushless 1st hand in 17.5 sedan and USVTA class. There are cars with faster/slower lap times, but as far as speed on the straight and pull out of the corner, all the cars are basically the same....set up and driving ability are the diffrence. I don't know about the speedo situation, but I've run the same GTB that I've had for almost 2 years against all the new "fancy" ones and as long as it's geared right it doesn't seem to matter. Don't forget about the new Havok systems for $150....by time you buy a new GTX and a new silver can you're pretty close to that amount. I think with the current rules in place for GT1/GT2 TCS is accepting brushless, but allowing them to run in the silver can classes I think would end the bickering and add to the entries.

Just my 2 cents, and Good Luck to everyone in the upcoming TCS races!
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