Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Racing Forum
Tamiya Championship Series >

Tamiya Championship Series

Like Tree818Likes

Tamiya Championship Series

Old 02-20-2009, 11:20 AM
  #10351  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (11)
 
SirSwiftAlot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SOCAL the fastest mini cooper guys in the nation
Posts: 862
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by rccardr
I've gotta admit...this answer has me scratching my head. I mean, I understand that the real deal here is that we don't want another battery on board the car so as to eliminate the opportunity for nefarious and mysterious wiring combinations that might increase performance. But why deny someone the ability to run the fan off of the ESC leads or battery connection? It makie no sense to me.

How about people who use Tamiya's own entry level ESC in combination with a personal transponder? That speed control requires two plugs (one signal, one power), plus you need a third one for the steering servo and a fourth for the PT. So, those guys don't get to run a motor fan because you won;t permit them to connect it to the battery input leads?

Or how about people who run receivers with only three plug sockets & a PT?

Agreed on the BEC thing, but not sure I would be too enthusiastic about the interference or poor performance caused by using a Y-connector to join a fan to the leads for a PT or ESC.

And then there are the non-RC specific fans out there that are the right size but just don't push much air when run at the lower BEC voltage instead of the full battery voltage.

I mean, WHAT'S THE FREAKIN' POINT??!!??!!
I don't know of very many people showing up to the track with a mini cooper or TT01 with the stock speed controller and are so worried about motor temp that they say "this is not fair I want to run a fan on my motor but becuase my $100 personal transponder took up the last spot on my Futaba 4PK reciever I can't run a $30 Fan set up so now what am I supposed to do if my motor over heats which are at a 13,000 rpm limit at 5 volts anyways " Again slightly rediculous bringing up the Tamiya ESC and Personal Transponder and wanting to add a Fan scenario but I love the banter anyways.

Last edited by SirSwiftAlot; 02-20-2009 at 11:20 AM. Reason: you momma
SirSwiftAlot is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 11:34 AM
  #10352  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (26)
 
reenmachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 2,539
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

If TCS racers weren't notorious for putting an insane amount of effort into exploiting any little loophole in the rules and otherwise gaming the system to the nth degree ridiculous rules like this wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

You reap what you sow...
reenmachine is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 11:46 AM
  #10353  
AWK
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
 
AWK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,021
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by rccardr
I've gotta admit...this answer has me scratching my head. I mean, I understand that the real deal here is that we don't want another battery on board the car so as to eliminate the opportunity for nefarious and mysterious wiring combinations that might increase performance. But why deny someone the ability to run the fan off of the ESC leads or battery connection? It makie no sense to me.

How about people who use Tamiya's own entry level ESC in combination with a personal transponder? That speed control requires two plugs (one signal, one power), plus you need a third one for the steering servo and a fourth for the PT. So, those guys don't get to run a motor fan because you won;t permit them to connect it to the battery input leads?

Or how about people who run receivers with only three plug sockets & a PT?

Agreed on the BEC thing, but not sure I would be too enthusiastic about the interference or poor performance caused by using a Y-connector to join a fan to the leads for a PT or ESC.

And then there are the non-RC specific fans out there that are the right size but just don't push much air when run at the lower BEC voltage instead of the full battery voltage.

I mean, WHAT'S THE FREAKIN' POINT??!!??!!
This is a safety rule as much as anything. We have never encountered a TCS racer running the TEU-101bk and trying to mount 2 fans and running an AMB transponder. In addition for anyone running that esc, additional fans are not necessary.

We do not want people putting an extra soft lipo, and don't like the wiring messes we have seen with people trying to run additional fans. If the fan is not hard wired into the esc such as a LRP TC Sphere, the only way to mount it is through the BEC slot.
AWK is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:07 PM
  #10354  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (107)
 
lbckevin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 5,731
Trader Rating: 107 (99%+)
Default

Well put Andrew.
lbckevin is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:35 PM
  #10355  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (6)
 
RaceBucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.
Posts: 512
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by CarKing
... We have never encountered a TCS racer running the TEU-101bk and trying to mount 2 fans and running an AMB transponder..
FYI,
I ran my TT-01 last year with the TEU-101bk at TCS, and while I ultimately didn't run a fan I did open it up and re-route the power leads internally to avoid having the extra plug. (probably shouldn't admit that to Tamiya but I doubt I'll ever send it in for warrenty!)

Since I also use the small Spektrum receiver, had I run a fan I would have been out of space if I hadn't modified the ESC's power.
RaceBucks is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 01:25 PM
  #10356  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (11)
 
SirSwiftAlot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SOCAL the fastest mini cooper guys in the nation
Posts: 862
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by RaceBucks
FYI,
I ran my TT-01 last year with the TEU-101bk at TCS, and while I ultimately didn't run a fan I did open it up and re-route the power leads internally to avoid having the extra plug. (probably shouldn't admit that to Tamiya but I doubt I'll ever send it in for warrenty!)

Since I also use the small Spektrum receiver, had I run a fan I would have been out of space if I hadn't modified the ESC's power.

Jeff you are not normal and we all know that but we still like you. OK thats 1 out of how many racers ? BTW whose silver can were you running? Was it stock?Or was it black Can? Stock?
SirSwiftAlot is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 02:00 PM
  #10357  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (8)
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Secret Underground Laboratory
Posts: 2,353
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

OK, so Jeff's not normal and I'm a fringe lunatic. We all knew that already.

Nobody's arguing about the no-battery-to-run-your-fan rule, whether for safety or skirt-the-rules reasons. Nor did I ever refer to an installation where there would be both a fan on the esc AND motor or multiple fans of any kind (do people actually run fans on their ESC? Do they get that hot?).

So we're talking strictly about a fan that blows air across the motor and where the power source for the fan originates. It just seems weird to me (not to mention impractical in the two examples given previously, scoffing aside) that you HAVE to run it off of a plug in the receiver. Is it because Tamiya wants us to raise the artistic level of beauty in the neat and orderly arrangment of our wiring? ("We...don't like the wiring messes we have seen...") Is it because Tamiya has a distinct preference for fans that are happy at 4 or 5 volts rather than one that operates better at 7.2 volts?

I mean, maybe I'm stupid (surely not the first time such a situation might be alleged) but I just don't see how it's a safety issue at all. Am I missing something obvious here? And Andrew's statement that the only way to run it is off the receiver if it's not wired into the ESC is just not accurate. I've seen any number of neat, sanitary, safe, well laid out setups where a single motor fan is powered from the battery leads or ESC tabs. Which, I think, was Bill's original point.
rccardr is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 02:08 PM
  #10358  
AWK
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
 
AWK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,021
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

While we understand that there are ways to do it safe and properly, from the amount of poorly wired cars we have seen through tech, we decided it would be safer and easier to regulate the way these fans had to be wired. It makes it easier for us in tech, easier for the people racing to know exactly what they can do, and makes it safer for those newer to r/c and TCS to wire safely. As I am sure many people have seen, there are plenty of people out there with a rats nest for wiring and with all of the concerns about battery issues with lipo, we want to do our best to keep any possible issues to a minimum.

My comment about the only way to wire the fan if it is not hard wired into the esc was not saying that it can't be done, only that it can't be done per our rules. Sorry for the confusion.

I can understand the frustration, but we are simply trying to keep things easy and safe for the average racer.

And to your two examples, while I can see where you are coming from, we have not had anyone raise any questions or concerns about this until right now. We can revise the rules later on if it becomes an issue, but for now the rules are going to stay as is. Sadly when you think about it, we haven't even had a race to knwo for sure if this, or any rule will need to be revised.
AWK is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:01 PM
  #10359  
Tech Master
iTrader: (44)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 1,660
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by rccardr
OK, so Jeff's not normal and I'm a fringe lunatic. We all knew that already.

Nobody's arguing about the no-battery-to-run-your-fan rule, whether for safety or skirt-the-rules reasons. Nor did I ever refer to an installation where there would be both a fan on the esc AND motor or multiple fans of any kind (do people actually run fans on their ESC? Do they get that hot?).

So we're talking strictly about a fan that blows air across the motor and where the power source for the fan originates. It just seems weird to me (not to mention impractical in the two examples given previously, scoffing aside) that you HAVE to run it off of a plug in the receiver. Is it because Tamiya wants us to raise the artistic level of beauty in the neat and orderly arrangment of our wiring? ("We...don't like the wiring messes we have seen...") Is it because Tamiya has a distinct preference for fans that are happy at 4 or 5 volts rather than one that operates better at 7.2 volts?

I mean, maybe I'm stupid (surely not the first time such a situation might be alleged) but I just don't see how it's a safety issue at all. Am I missing something obvious here? And Andrew's statement that the only way to run it is off the receiver if it's not wired into the ESC is just not accurate. I've seen any number of neat, sanitary, safe, well laid out setups where a single motor fan is powered from the battery leads or ESC tabs. Which, I think, was Bill's original point.
You read me like a book, Doc. I totally understand not running the soft pack Lipo (as I saw several do at the Nats last year), but why regulate where our one motor fan pulls power? I have a nice, clean set-up with a BEC plug coming off of my ESC tabs, but now I have to pull it off and crimp those blasted 28 awg contacts w/servo plug so I can fit it into a receiver that doesn't accept the 2-pin red BEC plug. Talk about a task you wouldn't want a beginner to tackle!

Originally Posted by CarKing
While we understand that there are ways to do it safe and properly, from the amount of poorly wired cars we have seen through tech, we decided it would be safer and easier to regulate the way these fans had to be wired. It makes it easier for us in tech, easier for the people racing to know exactly what they can do, and makes it safer for those newer to r/c and TCS to wire safely. As I am sure many people have seen, there are plenty of people out there with a rats nest for wiring and with all of the concerns about battery issues with lipo, we want to do our best to keep any possible issues to a minimum.

My comment about the only way to wire the fan if it is not hard wired into the esc was not saying that it can't be done, only that it can't be done per our rules. Sorry for the confusion.

I can understand the frustration, but we are simply trying to keep things easy and safe for the average racer.

And to your two examples, while I can see where you are coming from, we have not had anyone raise any questions or concerns about this until right now. We can revise the rules later on if it becomes an issue, but for now the rules are going to stay as is. Sadly when you think about it, we haven't even had a race to knwo for sure if this, or any rule will need to be revised.
See Andrew, now you are catching on. No races, no worries. But silly me wanted to take some time preparing my cars for this season, and realized the new motor fan rule made my "fresh off the TCS Nats track" mini illegal for this year. And after screwing up a couple of servo connector terminals, I decided to ask the question. Asked, and now answered. I will comply to the rules, and hope that it is regulated so that all participants are asked to follow these new rules.

And while we are on the subject of making the wiring safer and easier for the beginners out there, why don't we keep the bullet connector rule for the motors? I've still got mine from the Nats. Allowing someone to hard-wire a motor sort of defeats your logic for not allowing someone to hard wire a motor fan, don't you think?

p.s. - It's all in good fun. I just thought I'd throw something out to get the chatter going again. With all of the race cancellations, we gotta do something!
minimadman2003 is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:53 PM
  #10360  
AWK
Tech Master
iTrader: (9)
 
AWK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,021
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

The reason we don't keep the bullet connector rule is because a lot of the aftermarket escs do not come with bullet connectors installed. By enforcing this rule, you are hypothetically making people do more wiring and soldering than they would other wise by having to install the bullet connectors on the esc and maybe on the motor as well depending how their motor came. Also, we have not seen the same wiring issues with motors as we have with the fans.

All we can say is go by the rules and your car will be good to go! Come on, we have had that rule posted since November!!! Plenty of time for your car to be wired up all pretty

We are going to do our best to make sure at our races everyone will comply, and also ensure that the stores hosting our events do the same.

All in fun is right, don't worry about that! This thread died for a bit so it's nice to see some chatter on here.
AWK is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 04:13 PM
  #10361  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (6)
 
RaceBucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca.
Posts: 512
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
Jeff you are not normal and we all know that but we still like you.


Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
...BTW whose silver can were you running? Was it stock?Or was it black Can? Stock?
It was at the regional last year with the RPM limits so it was a standard water dipped motor; I was Granpa and Red Dot free so no need for a fan.

My current motors are still Granpa and Red Dot free, but now seem to benefit from a fan
RaceBucks is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:32 PM
  #10362  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (110)
 
Core Creations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Back in the booth
Posts: 6,299
Trader Rating: 110 (100%+)
Default

Might I suggest the high RPM Muchmore fan...those things rip even at 5 volts!!
Core Creations is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:33 PM
  #10363  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (11)
 
Kevin CBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: "Racing Budget" is an oxymoron
Posts: 3,984
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

I ran a "soft lipo" to power my fans last year at the Nats. Very clean and safe set-up and since we had to add weight anyways, what the heck, right ? But I can understand Tamiya's concerns with people runing small soft lipo packs to power fans when they require hard case lipo's to power the car only. So, the rule has changed and so has my wiring. It's called a Y-connector available at most any LHS that you plug into your receiver and now you can run two items (like a fan and a personal transponder) from the one receiver slot. And it mounts so nicely on top of the steering servo with some good double back tape. It worked so well, that for my RCGT series car, I am running two motor fans, a personal transponder AND the Tamiya lite unit for headlight and tailights on my car, all through the receiver. Humm, no problems. I guess those little KO receivers are pretty good !
Kevin CBR is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:46 PM
  #10364  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (8)
 
rccardr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Secret Underground Laboratory
Posts: 2,353
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Aha. Now I understand.

We DON'T insist that racers insulate both wires on their power plugs.
We DON'T make racers charge their Lipos in a Lipo sack.
In fact, we DON'T even check to see if they are using a Lipo charger to charge their Lipo cells.
We DON'T tech the gloppy soldering jobs that cause battery plugs to heat up and/or melt.
We DON'T get worried when the occasional 4200 cell blows off in the pits because somebody's a 'chargin at 15 amps.
We DON'T expect racers to neatly bundle, tie-wrap and secure their general wiring.
But we DO insist that racers plug their fans into the puny 5-volt sockets in their receivers because...IT'S SAFER!!!

How could I have been so blind???!!!???

Last edited by rccardr; 02-20-2009 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Swifty made me do it.
rccardr is offline  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:27 PM
  #10365  
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
 
maxepower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Aliso Viejo, Calif.
Posts: 1,641
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default TCS Series RACE!

Originally Posted by rccardr
Aha. Now I understand.

We DON'T insist that racers insulate both wires on their power plugs.
We DON'T make racers charge their Lipos in a Lipo sack.
In fact, we DON'T even check to see if they are using a Lipo charger to charge their Lipo cells.
We DON'T tech the gloppy soldering jobs that cause battery plugs to heat up and/or melt.
We DON'T get worried when the occasional 4200 cell blows off in the pits because somebody's a 'chargin at 15 amps.
We DON'T expect racers to neatly bundle, tie-wrap and secure their general wiring.
But we DO insist that racers plug their fans into the puny 5-volt sockets in their receivers because...IT'S SAFER!!!

How could I have been so blind???!!!???
TCS races are not a ROAR sanctioned race so that means that Fred has to set a standard regardless of it being a saftey issue of ease of inspection for racing. There are racers that will be upset about one rule or the other and you can't please everybody, although Fred has tried his best to get input from a lot of racers to make it a better sport.
A lot of young novice racers run TCS for the first time and usually come with family and friends. In other words a lot of eyes are watching what's going on in the pits,ie. no profanity,smoking, open toed shoes, spec. tires, rims, batteries, bodies, cheating, etc. etc.
I think spectators watching the race will leave thinking that this is great hobby and they would want to come back and watch or participate. This can only help the sport grow!
I believe Fred has the authority to set standards for his races. Nobody is forced to race TCS ,so if someone doesn't like all the rules then don't run TCS. For that matter ROAR races included!
That simple!
Just my 2$

Hey Kevin,
Are you going to Tamiya tomorrow? Should be a nice day!!
maxepower is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.