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Old 12-14-2008, 12:33 PM
  #9886  
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Originally Posted by alphacat
Hi Guys, A good friend of mine, (Former multiyear nat champ in 1/12 and 1/8 gas), gave me some real good advice a few years ago. "The best hopup part is transmitter time and don't forget at the end of the day it still is just playing with toy cars, so have a good time" Just wanted to pass it along. Andy
Some people equate competitive with "fun" and that's okay as long as you don't go overboard.

Edit -

Anyway I found this on You Tube and it seems to be the Union City, CA TCS from last year and this is the Novice class.

Kevin yes they are MOVING SLOW and the kit tires make the cars slide all over the place...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xorsPyFSxXs

Last edited by djfourmoney; 12-14-2008 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:28 AM
  #9887  
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Originally Posted by djfourmoney
Well part of the hobby is getting more out of less, or it that an American thing to do???

How could the TT be that "bad" for GT-3? I'll get to the Novice comments made thus far in a minute.

People said the TL-01 was a horrible starting point for a competitive race car, umm that turned out to be wrong for the most part. Is it competitive at the National Level vs purpose built cars? It depends, if its vs a fairly intermediate driver or even worst a "hack" behind the wheel, the TL-01 driven well blew your doors off...

How many times have I heard or read in Club stock classes an entry level car is more than competitive when its short-coming are addressed, its not Tamiya's shoddy engineering, far from it, its locking out adjustment of the chassis, fiction shocks and crappy stock tires than keep it from running with a TA-05 out of the box, DUH.

The TT is very simple and by keeping it simple usually means it can be pretty darn quick...

Give me some adjustment and proper tires and I don't see why a TT couldn't be competitive. I'm sure it would be more "me" as a driver and less the "car".

Now about Spec Novice...

Bump me up, I don't care...

The truth remains -

a) I have never raced competitively ever, period. Not off-road, not parking lots, not on a purpose built tracks, no place. I have about 20-30 laps around an very mild off-road track built by a friend next door, the person that got my interested in R/C to begin with, that was 25 years ago, I'm 38, do the math...

However I'm a HUGE 1:1 Racing Fan and a devoted follower of the ALMS, WTCC, BTCC, Brit GT, FIA GT and F1. I understand basic car setup, these things are no different. Driving lines are no different, smooth driving is key and solid handling is important.

But racing I am a Novice and Spec Novice is where I feel I belong. If talent rears its ugly head, I don't mind being bumped up.

Practice is key and I do plan on going down to AV to get some laps in and I don't see how that makes it unfair. Just because I know the track and know the racing line doesn't mean I should automatically run GT-3 with a largely unfamiliar car and no concept of how to adjust it just yet.

I agree there's no glory in easy victory, hard earned are far more rewarding.

If my lap times are comparable to GT-3, challenge me to move up!

Finally "Car King" -

I'll assume you work at Tamiya USA, and while the TT-01R is more than likely the best performing version of the TT-01, it doesn't have the improved chassis stiffening parts, nor the improved steering and it does have the hotter Sport Tuned engine, are you saying that I need every hop up in the book to be competitive with a belt-drive car????

I say you can do this it won't cost you nearly as much, take the best parts from the discontinued R model, use the improvements from the Type E, tune it up for GT-3 and see what happens...
When the TT-01R came out, it was the best TT-01 because it was packaged with hopups. You can buy a TT-01 or TT-01E and get the same option parts and have a similar car to the R. With some newer upgrades, the TT-01E is the best TT-01 to get with a few options.

While I understand the mentality simple can be good, or better than overly complicated, trust me....a TT-01 in GT3 will not win the A-main, or B-main. Too many good drivers, and the cars are just superior in everyway. If you are just looking to run, and have fun then a TT-01 hopped up will suit your needs fine and I encourage you not to spend a ton of money just to have fun.

The TT-01 and TL-01 were designed as they were to take a beating, and not be overly complicated for a novice user. Obvioulsy if Tamiya had designed them with more adjustments the car would be better, but what is the point in designing 4 different chassis to all run in the same class. Doesn't make good business sense. Like why would a car company make 4 different mini vans?

As far as being punished for knowing a track well, it's not punishment. When I entered my first TCS race, I had practiced at the track for 2 years, and been around r/c cars for many years just messing around in my street. While this didn't make me an expert, and even though I had never raced, I entered GT2 and would never have imagined entering Novice. Also, had I done that, I would have been the only guy racing children and probably would have been too embarassed to race. We believe people should have a good idea where they should race before entering. If you are a smooth, clean, consistant driver, novice is not for you.

Based on your histroy and background, I would guess GT3 is for you. While you might not have the experience with electronics tech, you know the basics, and have the mentality of someone who needs to be in a more serious class. While you never know until you show up and try, that is my gut feeling. Start coming out to Aliso Viejo to practice, and let people here know when you do and what car you will be there with. Then you can get help and some input on what class you should try.

Now....the reason Spec/Novice is not a complete box stock is because we want to give people some limited options to make the class more fun and to give people some experience of tuning their car so it is easier to make the transition to other clases. It is a novice class, and we want people to learn something besides driving a car as well.
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by djfourmoney
Bump me up, I don't care... SNIP

But racing I am a Novice and Spec Novice is where I feel I belong. If talent rears its ugly head, I don't mind being bumped up.

..SNIP...

Jeers to those that say I should jump into the deep end with a steep learning curve and complicated car like the TA-05IFS.

If I found I had a talent for this, I would park the TT-01 and buy something more in-line with my abilities and talent, thus I would be spending twice anyway... It would be quite funny if I started with such an expensive car and ended up no matter what I did towards the back of the pack, wow that would be disheartening now wouldn't it?
You will never know your skill level till you try. Seems to me you have the means to find out even before you invest in a new chassis. If I were you, I would buy some quality equipment (battery, charger, servo, radio and ESC) of your choice then stuff your TL-01 with electronics. Take it down to the Tamiya track on Saturday and see how you run. If at the end of the day of practice you can run the whole track full throttle only lifting 2-3 times and feel that the TL-01 chassis is not the best showcase of your skills, novice is not the class for you. Take your $ and invest it in a TA-05 and go GT-3 with the good quality electronics you would will already have. For a person with your stated mechanical and functional understanding you should not find it all that complicated. Plenty of helpful advise is available at the track to help you with the learning curve. On the other hand, if your struggle to figure out right turns from left when the car is coming towards you, you make other drivers grumpy because you weave on the straight and you canít run 3-4 clean laps without hitting the boards or jumping a curb, then novice might be your class for 2009. See you Saturday!
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:25 AM
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djfourmoney,
Interesting discussions. Whether to enter Spec Novice or GT-3 has obviously struck a nerve with some people. Where I race the novice class is for relative beginners, once you won a couple races you get bumped up to "Intermediate", then "Sportsman", there you can stay as long as you like. From how you describe yourself I would have clearly said Novice was appropriate. I guess Tamiya is different, I can understand how they might want to keep us middle aged guys out of the race if it's for kids, I'm ok with a kids class (maybe that's the true meaning of the Spec Novice class); CarKing works for Tamiya so go with what he says, 240Z had good advice to try your TL-01 first if that isn't too much of a pain.

The great part of racing RC cars is that it is a lot of fun, the down side is that if you ever do well someone will accuse you of cheating or sandbagging. Don't let those guys get you down and also don't give'em ammunition either; if you can avoid the trap of feeling like you need to win to have fun you will have fun whether you pick Novice or GT-3.

It'll be a few saturdays before I can clear my calendar to make Aliso Viejo, but let's introduce ourselves either at practice or at the race.

Jeff Smith

Last edited by RaceBucks; 12-15-2008 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 12-15-2008, 03:55 PM
  #9890  
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The other thing to think about is if you never raced and only did a handful of laps around the track, you will, guarenteed have a problem with other cars on the track. I would at that point say stick it out in Novice.

I equate GT3 as more as an intermediate class, than a novice class. Maybe 7 years ago GT3 would be perfect for Novice upgraders or Novice racers that have a better sedan. If you jump into GT3 right-away the intermediate and expert drivers might get upset and think of you as a hack, than a novice driver.

I would focus on your TL01, start/keep running that as racebucks stated, at a local track or Aliso (where Tamiya nuts hang out). You might be surprised and find some goodies for your TL01 or even a Spec car that others might want to weed out of their collection, cheap. RC Networking does wonders.

I am sure in no time you will be racing like the 1:1 series that you watch scaled down to RC. You asked the right questions and want to experience a little bit of real racing with an affordable budget.
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Old 12-15-2008, 04:00 PM
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I dunno. It's kinda strange to me that expert, even fast intermediate drivers flock to GT3...isn't that what GT1 and GT2 are for?
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Old 12-15-2008, 04:05 PM
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Cherry pickers!
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:16 PM
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I think that GT3 will be a very big class. Drivers who don't want to buy an IFS car and/or a brushless system may go into GT3 class making a highly challenging class even more so.
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:36 PM
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If there is a change the industry will have to absorbe it . But it seems we have enough enginuity to do anything we want to. Problem is most of the racers have other obligations in life other than just buying all new stuff t play speed racer once or twice a week.
Seems to me there has to be a "Formula" not unlike what the trans am guys do. I love that vintage stuff ! Problem is , no one wants to go slow. But then again they also want to keep their cars in one piece. I see in other forums people suggesting that the slowest GT3 class might be the biggest. Ok ok.. thats touring cars but listen up please.
Setting up races where everyone is close no matter what they run.
making cars slower to make it more of a drivers race .
acceleration standardized almost by .... historic at best motors or changing the voltage from the source pack. We have enough toys to play with , lets race then , and if you have a 12th car and u want to run 3.7v and a 13.5, whatever ! bring on your 380 mini motor monsters and lets go toe to toe . just come out and race. Diversity is not only out strength but also neusence. things were far more fun when everyone only had a 12i or whatever but we all had the same crap. There were like 20 or more of us all 4 cell and a 27 pos motor. Trans Am has an ansewr for almost any configuration. Kinda like MINI M03 but 4wd and not plastic! Figuring out how to win without the FASTEST car on the track sounds like the best racing around! My 4 cell 12R5 was Amazing last friday. felt a bit slow but 1st week out you know. For now lets race because most people wont like what another says we need to do. Spend more time on the track proving yourself wothy of an opinion about what others should be running. For one I like the motor size we have and I love Lipos. Efficiency or not a brushless motor canbe made to run about any speed imaginable. Lets remember the sanctioning bodies want to slow the cars down. Making the cars lighter will only change setup. but that will also make the cars faster . So how do we formulate a ligitimate seudo reality toy car race. Final drive .. wind .. volts.. tires.. whatever it takes. but then industry... who picks what tire... the tire manufacture? Us? Hmmm, What ever happened to that fair trade agreement ? There will always be faster cars... better drivers... lets find out by racing. not crashing , not breaking, everyone finishes .... every time. well almost
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:18 PM
  #9895  
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I think Gary Cooper sums it up best...

Hot Lapping is one thing, racing in a crowd is entirely different!

As with F1 or Sportscar racing I notice in qualifying heats people give themselves enough room to lap quickly without having to overtake somebody. If you have ever watched ALMS or FIA GT even a slow driver trying to get out of the way or never seeing you is a hazard!

I believe Novice is not just where you learn proper line and tuning, but Racecraft as well. Officials asking people to pull to the side when the faster drivers are coming through and having that ingrained in your head, makes you nervous when the faster cars get closer and ever closer to you, you end up watching them more than yourself, like driving with your mirrors in 1:1 racing.

The only point of contention I have with Car King is that to run Novice would require the purchase of a TT-01 or risk being known as a "hack" in GT-3 with a seriously outdated TL-01, though I have contacted somebody where I can get 98% of the TL-01 hop ups for roughly 50% of what the outlet store would cost and bridge that performance gap somewhat.

I wouldn't want to be a "hack"; the reason I got Race Driver 3 for my PS2 is so I could get used to driving around human beings (online). I've been kicked from races before for being too aggressive or getting caught up in other people's mistakes, so I know what being viewed as a "hack" feels like. I generally race cleanly but where I "brake" and where others "brake" is still something I struggle with.

Most of it is lack of track time around some circuits in the game. Some I know very well from the game and tv coverage others are only in this game (like some of the tracks from the V8 Supercar series).

I think there some parallels between video games and R/C since they involve hand-eye coordination.

I've even considered buying Virtual R/C and the USB adapter since getting Saturdays off to go down to AV is unrealistic. I can count on getting one or maybe two Saturdays off but not many more than that.

I would take my TL-01 down to the track, the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. I need an ESC, Battery Pack(s), Charger and Radio at min. I just spoke to a friend of mine that has a TA-03 and like me doesn't have someplace to go with his car, so it sits. If I can get him to come with me, then buying a charger can wait a bit.

The soonest I can get down to AV is 2nd week of Jan.

And my budget is very limited and lastly Car King, I think I would opt for a TB-03, belts just aren't my thang.
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:12 AM
  #9896  
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant
If there is a change the industry will have to absorbe it . But it seems we have enough enginuity to do anything we want to. Problem is most of the racers have other obligations in life other than just buying all new stuff t play speed racer once or twice a week.
Seems to me there has to be a "Formula" not unlike what the trans am guys do. I love that vintage stuff ! Problem is , no one wants to go slow. But then again they also want to keep their cars in one piece. I see in other forums people suggesting that the slowest GT3 class might be the biggest. Ok ok.. thats touring cars but listen up please.
Setting up races where everyone is close no matter what they run.
making cars slower to make it more of a drivers race .
acceleration standardized almost by .... historic at best motors or changing the voltage from the source pack. We have enough toys to play with , lets race then , and if you have a 12th car and u want to run 3.7v and a 13.5, whatever ! bring on your 380 mini motor monsters and lets go toe to toe . just come out and race. Diversity is not only out strength but also neusence. things were far more fun when everyone only had a 12i or whatever but we all had the same crap. There were like 20 or more of us all 4 cell and a 27 pos motor. Trans Am has an ansewr for almost any configuration. Kinda like MINI M03 but 4wd and not plastic! Figuring out how to win without the FASTEST car on the track sounds like the best racing around! My 4 cell 12R5 was Amazing last friday. felt a bit slow but 1st week out you know. For now lets race because most people wont like what another says we need to do. Spend more time on the track proving yourself wothy of an opinion about what others should be running. For one I like the motor size we have and I love Lipos. Efficiency or not a brushless motor canbe made to run about any speed imaginable. Lets remember the sanctioning bodies want to slow the cars down. Making the cars lighter will only change setup. but that will also make the cars faster . So how do we formulate a ligitimate seudo reality toy car race. Final drive .. wind .. volts.. tires.. whatever it takes. but then industry... who picks what tire... the tire manufacture? Us? Hmmm, What ever happened to that fair trade agreement ? There will always be faster cars... better drivers... lets find out by racing. not crashing , not breaking, everyone finishes .... every time. well almost
Rant Over ?

Trans Am is fun if you like that type of thing. I like Muscle Cars, but they are looked at with Rose Colored glasses, they didn't stop well or handle well at all, even in Trans Am or SCCA spec compared to modern hardware.

Why do you think Resto Mods are so popular???

Back on Topic -

GT-3 will be popular because as you prefer its open to any non-TRF Tamiya touring cars. So even my buddies 10 year old TA-03 has a home in this class. However according to Car King he might as well buy a newer car otherwise he'll be running at the back in C Main, regardless of talent level (okay maybe B Main, but towards the rear). Race Bucks made it to B Main with a largely stock TT-01, Car King says higher than that is like winning the California Lottery...

Making this class home to the $200+ kit car or R model if you can find one or MS model as I see nothing that prevents somebody from running that car.

Why not call this class TA-05 Spec??? Race Bucks reported 29 of 35 cars at last year's NA Final were TA-05's, his lone TT-01 was the only entry level car and I would gather the most "Stock" car too and the CHEAPEST! (New).

Here's where I become highly critical of TCS's Rules and Format -

I have a car, its a TL-01. This is a competitive "sport" its no longer a "hobby" if your competing for trophies and free stuff... They promote "Fun" and racing is fun otherwise you wouldn't do it. But because I wouldn't be competitive in GT-3 with a TL-01 and its not legal for Spec Novice (interesting choice of Nomenclature where "bashers" become "civilized" road course pilots so they hope anyway) where I would have to buy new hardware.

Why not print a warning sticker that says "Your entry level car is not competitive, no matter what you do too it".

A better way to do "Novice" is to call it Novice Box Stock. Tamiya employees know what was in the box and what wasn't, should pass inspection no problem. Have an under 12 class and have a over 12 class. When did Brain Kinwald start whoopin ass? I think he was 13...

Any cars with camber or caster adjustment shouldn't be allowed, its for entry level cars and entry level drivers.

For me, I have to retire my TL-01 before its even turned a wheel from competition. I have to blow out my budget on a TB-03 because, why buy "Old Tech" and I don't want a Belt Drive car...

$189.00 from EP Racing and I'm not in love with any of the bodies really, but with the limited choice - JGTC Nissan GTR

I was trying to get out a cheaply as possible, not going to happen. Having fun is important, being in C-Main means while fun, its not where the "real" fun is and you all know what that means.

Car King -

Save my Bacon and tell me I can still do well with a TB-02??? or do I really need the latest version of this car to beat a TA-05, umm I don't want to spend $300+ on the car nor should I have too.
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by djfourmoney
Rant Over ?

Trans Am is fun if you like that type of thing. I like Muscle Cars, but they are looked at with Rose Colored glasses, they didn't stop well or handle well at all, even in Trans Am or SCCA spec compared to modern hardware.

Why do you think Resto Mods are so popular???

Back on Topic -

GT-3 will be popular because as you prefer its open to any non-TRF Tamiya touring cars. So even my buddies 10 year old TA-03 has a home in this class. However according to Car King he might as well buy a newer car otherwise he'll be running at the back in C Main, regardless of talent level (okay maybe B Main, but towards the rear). Race Bucks made it to B Main with a largely stock TT-01, Car King says higher than that is like winning the California Lottery...

Making this class home to the $200+ kit car or R model if you can find one or MS model as I see nothing that prevents somebody from running that car.

Why not call this class TA-05 Spec??? Race Bucks reported 29 of 35 cars at last year's NA Final were TA-05's, his lone TT-01 was the only entry level car and I would gather the most "Stock" car too and the CHEAPEST! (New).

Here's where I become highly critical of TCS's Rules and Format -

I have a car, its a TL-01. This is a competitive "sport" its no longer a "hobby" if your competing for trophies and free stuff... They promote "Fun" and racing is fun otherwise you wouldn't do it. But because I wouldn't be competitive in GT-3 with a TL-01 and its not legal for Spec Novice (interesting choice of Nomenclature where "bashers" become "civilized" road course pilots so they hope anyway) where I would have to buy new hardware.

Why not print a warning sticker that says "Your entry level car is not competitive, no matter what you do too it".

A better way to do "Novice" is to call it Novice Box Stock. Tamiya employees know what was in the box and what wasn't, should pass inspection no problem. Have an under 12 class and have a over 12 class. When did Brain Kinwald start whoopin ass? I think he was 13...

Any cars with camber or caster adjustment shouldn't be allowed, its for entry level cars and entry level drivers.

For me, I have to retire my TL-01 before its even turned a wheel from competition. I have to blow out my budget on a TB-03 because, why buy "Old Tech" and I don't want a Belt Drive car...

$189.00 from EP Racing and I'm not in love with any of the bodies really, but with the limited choice - JGTC Nissan GTR

I was trying to get out a cheaply as possible, not going to happen. Having fun is important, being in C-Main means while fun, its not where the "real" fun is and you all know what that means.

Car King -

Save my Bacon and tell me I can still do well with a TB-02??? or do I really need the latest version of this car to beat a TA-05, umm I don't want to spend $300+ on the car nor should I have too.

djformoney do you know Nova F1 racer by chance?
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:29 AM
  #9898  
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Well that was a lot to read!!!

While I understand people being annoyed with having to buy a new car, or spend a lot of money in upgrades, please know that blaming the rules for this is not going to help.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the racers. If everyone just wanted to have fun and race, there would be a lot more TA03s, 04s, etc. racing in GT3. The problem is, everyone wants to win. So they know that an TA05 > TA04 > TA03. There are enough people that want to win that put the people just looking for a class to have fun in towards the back of the grid. Sadly that is just how it works. Even if we did a box stock class for just people wanting to race, people would still try to cheat, enter even though they also run GT1, etc. because they think they can get an easy win.

Sure it is easy enough to say "Hey, let's make this class and that class" but we can't have 10 classes to run every weekend. The fields would be too small and the days too long to get all the races.

Also, putting a warning label on the box about how the car will not be competitive is really not needed as the TL01 is discontinued and not sold in 95% of stores anymore except for the left over inventory a store might have. Second, most people who buy that kit have no intention of ever going racing. That is a kit to get people into the hobby. Lastly, yes a newer car will always(SHOULD always) be better than the previous generation car. So if you buy a TA05 it better be better than a TA04, just like a Mitsubishi X is better than a Mitsubishi IX. Applies to both real world and r/c. Lastly, most people who buy that kit have no intention of ever going racing. That is a kit to get people into the hobby.

I have seen people win TCS races with TA04s racing against TA05s, and seen TB02s beat TB03s, and TRF414s beat TRF416s. So it can be done, it just doesn't happen often. If you wanted to run GT3, i would get a used TA04 or TB02 over a TT01 still.

Also, like I said, if you get out to Aliso Viejo, you will get used to traffic very quickly. There will be people much faster and slower than you that you will have to deal with. Take it from someone who did it; after running practice at AV, a race is easy (traffic wise)!!!!! Going from constantly watching for other cars and drivers, to only worrying about people going your same speed is nice.

I am more than happy to help you out figure out what class to race, or anyone here who can make it out to the track. I never said you can't race novice or don't need to be there. I DID say that you sounded like someone who should run GT3. I only mentioned to make sure you actually belong there so you don't get bumped up to a class you are no prepaired for, not as a threat it would happen. Like I said, come out to the track, talk to people, let people here know you are going and everyone is more than friendly and will help you!
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:34 AM
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king, the label may not be competitive LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

here we go, this will solve it all.

All class winners will receive a free tamiya kit*
.....

*except spec class**
.....

**except if the winner is 15 and under***

.....

***and is a 'novice'.


.....

hahahaha

R
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:48 AM
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A question for the Tamiya folks:
What are the odds of getting some F1 bodies in stock before the regional? Any chance someone could special order a case?
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