Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Racing Forum
Tamiya Championship Series >

Tamiya Championship Series

Like Tree829Likes

Tamiya Championship Series

Old 09-06-2008, 07:29 PM
  #9196  
Tech Apprentice
 
Notso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Bay Area
Posts: 70
Default

Just wanted to share how the 17.5 brushless test went today. The motor is not as fast as a black can but has a little more torque than a silver can. I ran back to back heats in 95 degree temps ambient the track temp was as high as 140 in the mains. I finished second in both qualifiers behind a mini with a good black can and was a couple of seconds in front of a red dot silver can. Everyone was very receptive to the way the silver can competed. I even qualified 8 out 0f 10 sportsman T/C's with 13.5 motors. I'm only an average (D-main at the TCS) driver but I never worried about the performance of my motor and drove one of my best races. I finished 3 in the mini main because the red dot guy switched to a 27 turn for the main....ah ego's.
My friend who qualified in the B main for the TCS did no voodoo to his motors and when it came to the main did 3 flyer laps in warm up, grided the car and when they asked all the drivers to drive over the loop his car wood not move. He took the car back to the pits and unplugged the motor plugged in another silver can and it worked just fine. Motor failure after 2 days of alternating 2 motors. Probably a 1 in a 1,000,000 fluke but to not be able to race just sucked.
Notso is offline  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:16 PM
  #9197  
MD
Tech Champion
iTrader: (136)
 
MD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 5,723
Trader Rating: 136 (100%+)
Default

Kevin CBR - I don't want to give anyone anything they don't earn. I've dealt with that attitude for many years as a coach. All the classes in the TCS are highly competitive and most people spend a good deal of money on equipment to participate. There are a lot of good drivers who own Tamiya products who don't participate because of the cost. If you want to keep the TCS for a restricted group of drivers that's fine. On road racing is diminishing while the success of a company like Traxxas shows the popularity of off road racing and off road vehicles. What Tamiya should probably be considering is the expansion of off road classes in the TCS. I think anything Tamiya can do to add participants will benefit the TCS and Tamiya. I think once you get people hooked in the TCS many will want to move into the higher levels racing. I applaud all the work, time and money TCS drivers put into their cars. I respect your opinion.
MD is offline  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:29 PM
  #9198  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (19)
 
Wicked-Wayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Do you feel you're a star?
Posts: 2,033
Trader Rating: 19 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by MD
What Tamiya should probably be considering is the expansion of off road classes in the TCS.
TCS already has an offroad class and at Trackside we run rally on our offroad track. There has been a good amount of new people getting into tc's at trackside this summer.

Peace Aaron(W-W)
Wicked-Wayz is offline  
Old 09-06-2008, 11:24 PM
  #9199  
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Originally Posted by Notso
Just wanted to share how the 17.5 brushless test went today. The motor is not as fast as a black can but has a little more torque than a silver can. I ran back to back heats in 95 degree temps ambient the track temp was as high as 140 in the mains. I finished second in both qualifiers behind a mini with a good black can and was a couple of seconds in front of a red dot silver can. Everyone was very receptive to the way the silver can competed. I even qualified 8 out 0f 10 sportsman T/C's with 13.5 motors. I'm only an average (D-main at the TCS) driver but I never worried about the performance of my motor and drove one of my best races. I finished 3 in the mini main because the red dot guy switched to a 27 turn for the main....ah ego's.
My friend who qualified in the B main for the TCS did no voodoo to his motors and when it came to the main did 3 flyer laps in warm up, grided the car and when they asked all the drivers to drive over the loop his car wood not move. He took the car back to the pits and unplugged the motor plugged in another silver can and it worked just fine. Motor failure after 2 days of alternating 2 motors. Probably a 1 in a 1,000,000 fluke but to not be able to race just sucked.
I'm curious, was the Red Dot motor an early one or one of Doc's later ones?. Some of his later ones are real screamers, not that the earlier ones were slow. Most of the Red Dots I've checked will turn 4 -7000 more than a unmolested 540J silvercan at 5v. If you beat a Red Dot motored Mini with your 17.5, by how many laps did you beat the guy with the stock silvercan???Your test sortof blows the hell out or the contention that a 17.5 and a stock silvercan are comparable. Also am curious about why your friends motor wouldn't run. Was it a motor failure or was it something like picking up a rock??????

Your friend is a good Mini tuner/driver if he made the B main at the TCS Nationals, however you and your car may be much better. It would be a much more valid test if you two swapped cars and see what the results are. I've only run against one 17.5 and he had to slow his motor down. The motor in my Mini was a 15k @ 5v 4 slot. And I'm the better driver/tuner.

Your experience and mine only reinforces my opinion that further testing should be done before we come to any final conclusions regarding the relative performance of the two motors. I believe tho that the guys at rcmini.net did some tests and found them to be comparable to Blackcans. I haven't visited their site for awhile so I could be wrong about that.
Granpa is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 03:48 AM
  #9200  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (26)
 
Hebiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 12,922
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Granpa
What was done at the Nats was very good, but was a little over the top. A rpm limit would be a little easier to police and would suffice. Altho an RPM limit that is much higher than 5-600 rpm over what a NIB silvercan will do, sort of defeats the purpose.
tell me grandpa.... (this is STRICTLY for a Nationals scenario)

1. how was tech at nationals "over the top"? was it over the top because you had to be in tech early... and end up being ON TIME to your race? and have someone install your motor?

2. what will be EXACTLY is accomplished by "allowing" people to take their motor back to the pits?

3. so say you set an RPM limit to 1x,xxx at 5v on Fred's motor master. what happens to the guy who goes over the LIMIT twice? DQ him on the spot? send him home? what if the second infraction was because you tested the motor 10 degrees hotter (this is based off regionals that had an RPM limit and i "heard" of differences in RPM readings because of temp - so no firm scientific evidence for this one) than the first reading. and what if those 10 degrees is caused by ambient temp being higher. say.. the first qual motor test was at 11am.. and the second was at 2:30pm?

so you'll probably say.. "temp" the motor before testing the RPM. gee... you just added YET another variance to the equation... AND more time wasted on teching the so called driver in question.

4. say the rpm limit is 12,500.... ill break in my motor to test at 12,400... but oops.. after my run.. it breaks in even more... and tests at 12550. so then you repeat above (let the motor cool down to proper temp, test... oops. DQ'ed) my question is.... how about 2nd place.. who has a 12,600 rpm motor.. but didnt TQ. but since 1st place got DQ'ed.. he's TQ now.

now what? TECH the TOP 10 for each round? how about the BQ guy who squeaks into the A because his set up is UBER dialed. you test his motor.. to find out its 11,900. but how about the 2nd place B-main guy.. who is now BQ... and has a 17,000 rpm motor, but just couldnt drive. it goes on and on. because people in the lower mains will try everything and gamble in hopes A. not getting caught, and B. trying to make the show.

so who gets tested? A-main? top 20? people who just look stupid fast but suck in driving? do you DQ them?

the whole RPM limit, "let the driver take their motor back to their pits" is just opening up a whole other pandora's box. why even bother? i say, impound all the motors and be done with it.

i for one ENJOYED tech at nats. it was run smoothly and efficiently. ALSO, we had hardly any delays because people were in tech extra early.

fun stuff.
Hebiki is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 03:55 AM
  #9201  
Tech Apprentice
 
Notso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: East Bay Area
Posts: 70
Default

There was nothing in the motor (rock) we took the motor straight to Doc to see if he could figure out why it failed but he could see no obvious reason for failure. I think my race today it was an older well run version. As for swapping cars that is what we will be doing today. I agree more track time is needed. Our cars are virtually identicle they were both new for the TCS with many hours of care building . As for my bud being a good driver, he is, it was both our first time at Aliso Viejo and he was only one of ten drivers to run a 16 lap qualifier (I hate the bastard!)
Notso is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 10:20 AM
  #9202  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (8)
 
414MPH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 989
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Chris,
I'll try to answer you well placed thoughtfull questions one at a time...

Originally Posted by Hebiki
tell me grandpa.... (this is STRICTLY for a Nationals scenario)

1. how was tech at nationals "over the top"? was it over the top because you had to be in tech early... and end up being ON TIME to your race? and have someone install your motor?

Tech at nationals was "over the top" because of all the extra manpower (great guys who volenteered to give up their weekend or not race, thanks again to all) required to peform the tech function. If you have been racing as long as I have you will remember the MANDATORY radio impound. It was determined racers had enough integrity to police themselves and this expense of time and manpower was no longer needed.

2. what will be EXACTLY is accomplished by "allowing" people to take their motor back to the pits?

With the impound there was no way for racers to assess their two motors peformance before running them in a qualifier. A racer with a slower motor can break it in or apply comm cleaning techniques to reserect the motor to allowable standards and feel handicapped by a poor performing motor.

3.a so say you set an RPM limit to 1x,xxx at 5v on Fred's motor master. what happens to the guy who goes over the LIMIT twice? [I]DQ each of his runs as his motor post run was found to have exceeded the allowable specification.DQ him on the spot?[/No.[/I] I][/B] [I]send him home? [B][I]No.[/I] what if the second infraction was because you tested the motor 10 degrees hotter (this is based off regionals that had an RPM limit and i "heard" of differences in RPM readings because of temp - so no firm scientific evidence for this one) than the first reading. and what if those 10 degrees is caused by ambient temp being higher. say.. the first qual motor test was at 11am.. and the second was at 2:30pm? Good question. A very simple solution is test the motor after a minimum 15 min cool down in the shade of the tech table. (thats park the car in tech, go out to marshal, wait for warm-up laps, marshal the race, walk back over to tech and wait at the most 5 min.) A 10 degree F over ambient max temp of the moter could easily be read with a temp gun if that would be better. One reading, one result, no do-overs.

3.b so you'll probably say.. "temp" the motor before testing the RPM. gee... you just added YET another variance to the equation... AND more time wasted on teching the so called driver in question. See answer above to the temp question.

4.a say the rpm limit is 12,500.... ill break in my motor to test at 12,400... but oops.. after my run.. it breaks in even more... and tests at 12550. You would be DQ'd. It is a poat race tech and you need to plan accordingly. so then you repeat above (let the motor cool down to proper temp, test... oops. DQ'ed) Please see the answer to the temp question above. my question is.... how about 2nd place.. who has a 12,600 rpm motor.. but didnt TQ. but since 1st place got DQ'ed.. he's TQ now. Another good question. For a Nationals senario, just impound the top 4 cars or motors from each heat of the round. Tech the top three. If one fails, go down the line.

4.b now what? TECH the TOP 10 for each round? No., just top legal three manditory. how about the BQ guy who squeaks into the A because his set up is UBER dialed. you test his motor.. to find out its 11,900. I thought this was based on a 12,500 limit (see 4.a), so no problem. but how about the 2nd place B-main guy.. who is now BQ... and has a 17,000 rpm motor, but just couldnt drive. it goes on and on. because people in the lower mains will try everything and gamble in hopes A. not getting caught, and B. trying to make the show. The race director has the discretion to pick any particularly fast looking car and have it also teched. He could go by straight-away speed or a particularly fast lap time. It is up to him and or his staff. If your under the limit, no problem, you must be a great driver or tuner and are dually complimented. This type of motor performance control is used across the world in full scale racing with great sucsess.
4.c so who gets tested? A-main? top 20? people who just look stupid fast but suck in driving? do you DQ them? See above criteria. If their motor is over the limit, the run would be DQ'd, not the driver.

4.c the whole RPM limit, "let the driver take their motor back to their pits" is just opening up a whole other pandora's box. why even bother? i say, impound all the motors and be done with it. Although tech ran smoothly at thia years Nationals, exceeding my expectations, it did not prevent all shenanigans. The tech staff, who through no fault of their own could not watch all the activity in the motor lines. On point, racers putting their motors under the table and doing god knows what occured frequently, racers applying their own special comm fluid right in front of other racers, racers liberally applying comm drops as bushing lube on the end bell side in hopes that some drops would migrate to the comm, racers spraying their motors and then running them WFO. All these indescretions were clearly outlined as not allowed during the drivers meeting. Those of us who chose to honor Freds directions and play fully above board with integrity felt a bit disadvantaged. (if any one dares say this is racing and racers should ignore rules to their advantage if they can get away with it, well, shame on you and your lack of integrity.)

Having impound resulted in no rpm limit with the logic no one could possibly bend the events rules. With no rpm limit it was impossible to prove if someone had altered their motors performance.Tamiya and the tech staff both realized that probable infractions had occured and decided to provide new, pre checked motors for A main racers in Mini and GT2 at Tamiya expense.


4.c i for one ENJOYED tech at nats. it was run smoothly and efficiently. ALSO, we had hardly any delays because people were in tech extra early. I agree the 2008 Nats were a blast and we plan on returning if possible. The staff did a tremendous job with the resources at hand and exceeded my expectations.

fun stuff.

Last edited by 414MPH; 09-07-2008 at 10:34 AM.
414MPH is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:13 AM
  #9203  
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Originally Posted by Hebiki
tell me grandpa.... (this is STRICTLY for a Nationals scenario)

1. how was tech at nationals "over the top"? was it over the top because you had to be in tech early... and end up being ON TIME to your race? and have someone install your motor?

2. what will be EXACTLY is accomplished by "allowing" people to take their motor back to the pits?

3. so say you set an RPM limit to 1x,xxx at 5v on Fred's motor master. what happens to the guy who goes over the LIMIT twice? DQ him on the spot? send him home? what if the second infraction was because you tested the motor 10 degrees hotter (this is based off regionals that had an RPM limit and i "heard" of differences in RPM readings because of temp - so no firm scientific evidence for this one) than the first reading. and what if those 10 degrees is caused by ambient temp being higher. say.. the first qual motor test was at 11am.. and the second was at 2:30pm?

so you'll probably say.. "temp" the motor before testing the RPM. gee... you just added YET another variance to the equation... AND more time wasted on teching the so called driver in question.

4. say the rpm limit is 12,500.... ill break in my motor to test at 12,400... but oops.. after my run.. it breaks in even more... and tests at 12550. so then you repeat above (let the motor cool down to proper temp, test... oops. DQ'ed) my question is.... how about 2nd place.. who has a 12,600 rpm motor.. but didnt TQ. but since 1st place got DQ'ed.. he's TQ now.

now what? TECH the TOP 10 for each round? how about the BQ guy who squeaks into the A because his set up is UBER dialed. you test his motor.. to find out its 11,900. but how about the 2nd place B-main guy.. who is now BQ... and has a 17,000 rpm motor, but just couldnt drive. it goes on and on. because people in the lower mains will try everything and gamble in hopes A. not getting caught, and B. trying to make the show.

so who gets tested? A-main? top 20? people who just look stupid fast but suck in driving? do you DQ them?

the whole RPM limit, "let the driver take their motor back to their pits" is just opening up a whole other pandora's box. why even bother? i say, impound all the motors and be done with it.

i for one ENJOYED tech at nats. it was run smoothly and efficiently. ALSO, we had hardly any delays because people were in tech extra early.

fun stuff.
I've apparantly pissed you off for somehow even suggesting that the Nationals were not perfect. However, let me see if I can address your your concerns about my post on a point by point basis.

1. NO, NO, and NO. I was not just referring to a Nationals type scenario, but for Regionals also. It was fine for a Nationals, but correct me if I am wrong, but there were at least 6 people in tech and usually more. Fine for a Nationals type environment, but a bit over the top on the manpower requirements for most others.

2. It would reduce tech time and manpower requirements. It would also allow you to test for the occasional "dud" motor.

3. Give the racers some credit for intelligence. I think most racers can figure out how to stay beneath the limits. It's the racers responsibility to know his equipment. If the guy can't seem to figure out how to stay within the rules, are you saying the fault is in the rule and not the rule breaker. And the penalty should always fit the severity of the infraction.

4. Common sense in MOST cases will prevail. Breaking in both your motors to 12.4k to a 12.5k limit defies the bounds of most peoples reason. I'm assuming a 2 motor purchase limit as at the Nats. Coming up with some improbable scenarios to advance your argument only weakens your position. I won't address the rest here as the answers are too obvious to merit any response.

I too enjoyed the Nats and tech was fine. No complaints here no matter how you may have misconstrued my comment. I believe that even the powers that be at Tamiya would agree that to properly run an impound and do it as well as was done at the Nats would require more manpower than most venues could muster.
Granpa is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:00 PM
  #9204  
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West of Crook County Illinois
Posts: 1,979
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Having the stricter motor impound issues at the nats and even stricter during the mains was probably the best attempt at leveling the playing field Tamiya has done in years. Kudos to SGT George and the rest!

Regional races you will always fight man-power issues that will make teching RPM in motors nearly impossible. Better solutions range from mabuchi grab bags to motor money protests.
A-Ko is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 06:27 PM
  #9205  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (26)
 
Hebiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 12,922
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Granpa
I've apparantly pissed you off for somehow even suggesting that the Nationals were not perfect. However, let me see if I can address your your concerns about my post on a point by point basis.

1. NO, NO, and NO. I was not just referring to a Nationals type scenario, but for Regionals also. It was fine for a Nationals, but correct me if I am wrong, but there were at least 6 people in tech and usually more. Fine for a Nationals type environment, but a bit over the top on the manpower requirements for most others.

2. It would reduce tech time and manpower requirements. It would also allow you to test for the occasional "dud" motor.

3. Give the racers some credit for intelligence. I think most racers can figure out how to stay beneath the limits. It's the racers responsibility to know his equipment. If the guy can't seem to figure out how to stay within the rules, are you saying the fault is in the rule and not the rule breaker. And the penalty should always fit the severity of the infraction.

4. Common sense in MOST cases will prevail. Breaking in both your motors to 12.4k to a 12.5k limit defies the bounds of most peoples reason. I'm assuming a 2 motor purchase limit as at the Nats. Coming up with some improbable scenarios to advance your argument only weakens your position. I won't address the rest here as the answers are too obvious to merit any response.

I too enjoyed the Nats and tech was fine. No complaints here no matter how you may have misconstrued my comment. I believe that even the powers that be at Tamiya would agree that to properly run an impound and do it as well as was done at the Nats would require more manpower than most venues could muster.
i really dont care enough with the whining and b!tching of mini and silver cans guys to get angry. so you're wrong there im just here to stir the pot.

and i really could care less also if people whip out a 10T silver can mabuchi or an advanced timing silver can (yes BOTH exist) in order to win. all i care about is a fair shot when it comes to nationals. i stopped talking about regionals a long time ago.
Hebiki is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 07:14 PM
  #9206  
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Originally Posted by Hebiki
i really dont care enough with the whining and b!tching of mini and silver cans guys to get angry. so you're wrong there im just here to stir the pot.

and i really could care less also if people whip out a 10T silver can mabuchi or an advanced timing silver can (yes BOTH exist) in order to win. all i care about is a fair shot when it comes to nationals. i stopped talking about regionals a long time ago.
Have no idea how to respond, so you can have the last word.
Granpa is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 07:49 PM
  #9207  
Tech Addict
 
Cangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: with Charlie_B, princess & FIONA
Posts: 651
Exclamation

Hey guys, I was hoping you could give one of the racers who frequently runs at the Tamiya track a message for me. He seems to be ignoring pms and phone calls. His name is Brandon AKA SirSwiftAlot. Let him know he needs to get a hold of Charlie or me ASAP to take care of some business he has fallen delinquent to. It is very important!! Thanks!

Last edited by Cangel; 09-07-2008 at 08:52 PM.
Cangel is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 08:22 PM
  #9208  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
 
BP SHADOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: In the LAB paintin' bodies!!!!
Posts: 2,324
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Cangel
Hey guys, I was hoping you could give one of the racers who frequently runs at the Tamiya track a message for me. He seems to be ignoring pms and phone calls. His name is Brandon AKA SirSwiftAlot. Let him know he needs to get a hold of us ASAP to take care of some business he has fallen delinquent to. It is very important!! Thanks!
Looks like the lap dance bill has come due!
BP SHADOW is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 08:47 PM
  #9209  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (24)
 
BP SHADOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: In the LAB paintin' bodies!!!!
Posts: 2,324
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

So I have been watching all this volleying of opinions, accusations and just plain bickering, and decided that I just couldn't leave well enough alone.
First of all, I think brushless is here to stay, and I couldn't be happier. Just how much someone can bend the rules in brushless is an unknown to me. I do know that at the Trackside TCS this year that there seemed to be pretty good parity in the classes that were running brushless. If there is a question of racers cheating in brushless, then maybe GT1 should be open to any wind of brushless that you dare bolt in your chassis. As far as brushless motors expiring, I would bet dollars to donuts that the failures were due to overgearing and lack of cooling rather than the integrity of the motor itself.
I believe that I have said it in past posts, but I will say it again, it is absolutely stupid to me that you need a motor man to run silvercan. I know most of the debate centers around whether or not to impound, but I think that GT3 should be the last place open to experimentation. If you feel the need to go faster, then run one of the brushless classes. If that doesn't cut it then go run ROAR, 12th scale mod, or 1/8 scale nitro onroad.
I also think we should get away from IFMAR qualifying and the timed system of racing.
If you really want to shake it up, do fast lap qualifying, and run the mains to a specified number of laps, and make the laps add up to more than 5 minutes. I think if everyone had to run a 10min main, the outcome would be different in a lot of instances.
BP SHADOW is offline  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:59 PM
  #9210  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (26)
 
Hebiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 12,922
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Granpa
Have no idea how to respond, so you can have the last word.
hehe.. grandpa you dont remember me huh? we've met before and in fact.. i used to chat with you a lot at socal

no need for last words. just friendly discussion of ideas for TCS
Hebiki is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.