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Tamiya Championship Series

Old 09-05-2008, 04:04 PM
  #9181  
MD
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Hebiki - I don't take it personally. I think debate and discussion is great. I understand that people, including myself, dump money into their cars. I look at the money I spend and I think about the fact that I got involved to have fun and race. That competition factor takes over. I believe that Tamiya has great products and a lot of people buy them and would like to compete. But, they don't want to to be in a class where they feel they block, wreck or stop a highly competitive driver from being successful. if there was low budget class there may be more people at the regional level. I think Tamiya also should examine the restrictions they put on hobby shops to hold races. If they had races in large metro areas like Chicago they would have great turnouts. If there is no budget to have Tamiya employees attend races ask TCS veterans to run tech. I think Tamiya offers more quality cars at various price levels than most companies. Sorry, I tend to ramble.
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:50 PM
  #9182  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
all i hear you saying is BUDGET THIS.. budget that. guess what... people will find a way to dump money into hobby in order to win.

its not just me. i have a budget now and last year.... (before it was budgetless...damn homeownership. ). but guess what. my budget last year and this year was the same. last year i was 14th overall.. and won the Bmain... this year.. 4th overall and blew out in the triple As....i did better this year because GUESS WHAT. i had track time!

want another example.. Kevin Cole. missed the A last year. made the A this year. what changed? TRACK TIME.

some people have disposable income.. some dont. but dont cater the rules because one guy works his butt off working overtime just so he can spend more on his toys. know what i mean? its just the way it is. some ppl will dump a whole bunch of money.. some are a little more budget minded.

MD.. dont take it personal that im blasting you. id blast Gary Katzer.. but the guy has been bald for a long time. id blast Kevin Cole.. but then where am i gonna get my spares?

plus i just like starting trouble on here. so where's next year's schedule?
Speaking of budgets, I may have to get new leg pads, trapper and blocker for ice hockey next year so that could blow my entire budget for the '09 year.

Seriously, Chris and I have been on the same page for some time. What incentive does someone have to work hard to get better if we just keep adding more classes so those who don't want to work hard or don't want to spend the time and money to get better can win the same prizes ? Sounds like todays Union mentality or 6 year old soccer. Give everybody no matter who works harder and gets better the same wage or all the same trophy. Not sure who posted earlier about the two day events but give all the prizes to the people who want to just show up and have "fun" on Saturday and no prizes for the serious racers on Sunday ? Gee, why not just award the trip to Japan based on a random drawing and not on winning the National Championships ?

What I don't understand is for the "casual racer" who doesn't want to spend the time and money on their hobby to get better than their competition, why isn't winning the B, C or even D main enough ? Why do you want to put so little into your sport but expect to win A mains and get the spoils of victory with it ? If people want to really race a TCS race, they will ! No entry fee, raffle prizes at the end, what local race does that ? There is room for everyone in TCS. However, there is only room at the top for one person in each class. Heck, I made the A main at the Nats for the first time this year and finished 6th overall in GT-2 and have been racing TCS since 2004. Does TCS need to add another class for me to win ? Nope, I need to practice more and drive better to make the podium next year which is exactly what my competition will be doing.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:02 PM
  #9183  
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Originally Posted by MD
Hebiki - I don't take it personally. I think debate and discussion is great. I understand that people, including myself, dump money into their cars. I look at the money I spend and I think about the fact that I got involved to have fun and race. That competition factor takes over. I believe that Tamiya has great products and a lot of people buy them and would like to compete. But, they don't want to to be in a class where they feel they block, wreck or stop a highly competitive driver from being successful. if there was low budget class there may be more people at the regional level. I think Tamiya also should examine the restrictions they put on hobby shops to hold races. If they had races in large metro areas like Chicago they would have great turnouts. If there is no budget to have Tamiya employees attend races ask TCS veterans to run tech. I think Tamiya offers more quality cars at various price levels than most companies. Sorry, I tend to ramble.
cool. then i wont expect a beat down when i see you in person.

seriously though.. this is the SECOND biggest problem. Tamiya doesnt have the budget to send Fred, Andrew, George and the cute blond to every race. sometimes its only Fred, or Larry (but i heard he's back in china now).

SIR, Aliso and Trackside is VERY fortunate to have lots of TCS veterans to help. but Tamiya just doesnt have the staffing. Heck at nationals, they asked for volunteers. (Ian and Izzy were nice enough to work).

so if people want to spec everything down to a "T".. just remember, Tamiya doesnt have enough staff to make it happen.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:16 PM
  #9184  
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My only beef with Tamiya is that they had a perfectly suitable trophy presenter who was working the race.

But instead Gary Demory was handing out the trophies.

Personally, I like Gary, but what were they thinking?
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:25 PM
  #9185  
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This year TCS took the big Brushless/LiPo step for the high end racers and took the LiPo and low rpm limit or "run what they give you" step for the silver can classes and it all worked great. As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

I can see it now, all the attacks about how broke TCS is, but:

1. They already let you choose LiPo or NiMH, and they let you choose Brushed or Brushless, and they let you spend to your hearts content in GT-2 and GT-1; what more do you want! If you want speed TCS has your classes; you decide if you want the latest technology and most bling; it's your money and it's your race.

2. If you don't want to spend a fortune, want to run simpler cars, want to run at slower speeds in closer racing, TCS has already got 4 classes for you: Mini, GT-3, F-103, and Spec. How many more choices could you want! If brushless were cheap then TCS I'm sure would make these classes brushless, but currently in the real world, they just demonstrated that rpm limits or handout motors installed only in tech works. Do it again next year.

a) Mini's are the most popular class and growing, don't radically change it; just set an rpm limit and tech the fast cars or hand out the motors in tech.
b) GT-3 should stay simple and silver; you want more complex run GT-2. 17.5T is really like 27T, and 17.5's can compete with 13.5's nicely so run GT-2 if you are already running comfortable with 17.5.
c) F-103 needs to stay silver; tricky enough already.
d) Spec, of course needs to stay silver.

TCS changed some things this year and they worked; keep it up.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:34 PM
  #9186  
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dont F103 run better on FOAMS? if they run F103s on FOAMS.. ill be all over it!
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:59 PM
  #9187  
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I love TCS...I will try to race with whatever rules they come up with.

I have deployed to the desert at least 8 times now (Iraq/Afghanistan)...I just look forward to doing a race, and I'd like to do it every year, because I have a good time. I have never won...I got 2nd a time or two...but it beats the heck out of living in a tent...and the atmosphere is waaaay more fun than a ROAR race...if that changes I'm out.

I normally race GT3 and was lent a Mini once...not because I am a sandbag...but because I am not home enough to stay current on the latest "RC fad"...matter of fact I still love my TA04 Tuned edition! Hard to get parts for it...but love it.

Will it compete in a ROAR race? No...does it in TCS? YES.

This is my 8 yr old son's 1st TCS season comming up. He is trying Spec...with whatever rules and a TL01...He will have a blast...and neither of us will win I'll bet...but whatever...

TCS is awesome because of the people and a company that cares to do this...does any other company do it? That's all I got...hope to see you guys in 09. Ill be in the dirt again from Xmas till March...but then Ill be at a race.


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Old 09-05-2008, 08:02 PM
  #9188  
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Originally Posted by Herc Driver
I love TCS...I will try to race with whatever rules they come up with.

I have deployed to the desert at least 8 times now (Iraq/Afghanistan)...I just look forward to doing a race, and I'd like to do it every year, because I have a good time. I have never won...I got 2nd a time or two...but it beats the heck out of living in a tent...and the atmosphere is waaaay more fun than a ROAR race...if that changes I'm out.

I normally race GT3 and was lent a Mini once...not because I am a sandbag...but because I am not home enough to stay current on the latest "RC fad"...matter of fact I still love my TA04 Tuned edition! Hard to get parts for it...but love it.

Will it compete in a ROAR race? No...does it in TCS? YES.

This is my 8 yr old son's 1st TCS season comming up. He is trying Spec...with whatever rules and a TL01...He will have a blast...and neither of us will win I'll bet...but whatever...

TCS is awesome because of the people and a company that cares to do this...does any other company do it? That's all I got...hope to see you guys in 09. Ill be in the dirt again from Xmas till March...but then Ill be at a race.


HC-130 "COMBAT SEARCH AND RESCUE"
With all the stock and hop-ups I have collected to restore older cars, I have a decent collection of TA04 parts still. If anything you are having trouble finding, send me a PM.

Kevin
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:48 PM
  #9189  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
dont F103 run better on FOAMS? if they run F103s on FOAMS.. ill be all over it!
Foam = a crutch. Gimme F103's on rubber any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Foam = a crutch. Gimme F103's on rubber any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
i thought they were only designed for foams. i dont know anything about F103s.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:11 AM
  #9191  
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Originally Posted by RaceBucks
This year TCS took the big Brushless/LiPo step for the high end racers and took the LiPo and low rpm limit or "run what they give you" step for the silver can classes and it all worked great. As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

I can see it now, all the attacks about how broke TCS is, but:

1. They already let you choose LiPo or NiMH, and they let you choose Brushed or Brushless, and they let you spend to your hearts content in GT-2 and GT-1; what more do you want! If you want speed TCS has your classes; you decide if you want the latest technology and most bling; it's your money and it's your race.

2. If you don't want to spend a fortune, want to run simpler cars, want to run at slower speeds in closer racing, TCS has already got 4 classes for you: Mini, GT-3, F-103, and Spec. How many more choices could you want! If brushless were cheap then TCS I'm sure would make these classes brushless, but currently in the real world, they just demonstrated that rpm limits or handout motors installed only in tech works. Do it again next year.

a) Mini's are the most popular class and growing, don't radically change it; just set an rpm limit and tech the fast cars or hand out the motors in tech.
b) GT-3 should stay simple and silver; you want more complex run GT-2. 17.5T is really like 27T, and 17.5's can compete with 13.5's nicely so run GT-2 if you are already running comfortable with 17.5.
c) F-103 needs to stay silver; tricky enough already.
d) Spec, of course needs to stay silver.

TCS changed some things this year and they worked; keep it up.
Jeff, very good argument in support of the more or less status quo side of this discussion. It basically seems to revolve around those with your point of view and those who would like to see brushless motors in almost all of the classes. I tend to support our side of this discussion for a # of reasons.

1. Brushless is expensive compared to a silvercan. ESC $80 or less. Motor $17. Brushless $200 plus. There are hidden expenses in brushless that haven't been addressed which I'll come to later.

2. Tech would be more difficult with brushless motors and would require expert tech people. There are a multitude of ways to "cheat" with a brushless motor including swapping rotors, advancing timing etc. I believe Devin White expressed this concern in one of his posts. In reply, a brushless advocate replied all of that was legal, as that was "tuning" and was what "expert" racers did. I believe that the so called tuning would add considerably to the expense of running a brushless system.

3. From observation, it seems as if brushless systems are not that reliable compared to what we're running now. I know of dozens of systems that had to be returned for any # of reasons. I've seen at least six catch on fire. However, to be fair, I've seen many others run w/out fault.

4. The # of people in this hobby is diminishing. I believe that adding to the expenses in order to participate in the lower classes of racing will only aggravate this situation. The serious racer has classes to run and that is as it should be. Mini is a sort of bastard class as there are many serious Mini racers. But the main appeal of Mini is still the "cheap", fun racing in that class. It really is no wonder as to why it has been and will continue to be the biggest class at the TCS races. That is if we don't allow some well meaning people to ruin it.

5. I'm not a reactionary, nor am I some impoverished racer who can't afford this hobby. I just feel that there are some things that should be left alone w/out major alterations. It doesn't make sense to add to the complication and expense of some of the more popular classes.

Last edited by Granpa; 09-06-2008 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:06 PM
  #9192  
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That is assuming we all have just 1 silver can....now how many does everyone have??? hmmm???

I am all fine for silver cans as long as we have impound and RPM limits. While it's nice for some casual racers to run TCS...it can be frustrating to be lapped 7 times by the guy that can tune a 27k silver can.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:20 PM
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Why not just run the regionals as close as possible to the Nats.
I know the silver can tuning was nuts at the TCS race I was at.


That being said the TCS was a blast.
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
That is assuming we all have just 1 silver can....now how many does everyone have??? hmmm???

I am all fine for silver cans as long as we have impound and RPM limits. While it's nice for some casual racers to run TCS...it can be frustrating to be lapped 7 times by the guy that can tune a 27k silver can.
At the Canadian Nationals, here was no impound of silver cans, just an RPM limit, and any racer could use the tech equipment to check their motors speed before installing the motor into the car. I fail to see what an impound brings to silver can with rpm limit. The Aliso regional back in March had an RPM limit for silver cans. It worked great as many were found to have motors within the rpm limit post run and a few others were found to have motors that exceeded the limit, so the lost their run (dq'd run). No worries, no problems, no cheating, no whinning.

If the limit is set low enough where a decently broken in motor is still under the limit, only the the motors that have been "tweaked " will be over the limit. Everyone knows how to break in a motor.

In summary, Just establish a reasonable RPM limit that is published and let the racers race. No impound and the associated manpower is required.

MPH

Oh by the way, I have about two dozen silver cans of various vintages. I've been running Tamiya silver can races since '95. That's about two a year on average.
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
That is assuming we all have just 1 silver can....now how many does everyone have??? hmmm???

I am all fine for silver cans as long as we have impound and RPM limits. While it's nice for some casual racers to run TCS...it can be frustrating to be lapped 7 times by the guy that can tune a 27k silver can.
Almost everyone I know has three or four. The one or two they had been running for the last couple of years and the two they bought at the Nats. You and I both know that an untuned silvercan will last for at least several hundred or more runs. One of the guys in the A main only had three.

You"re absolutely correct that a sensible RPM limit would be necessary, but an impound would not . What was done at the Nats was very good, but was a little over the top. A rpm limit would be a little easier to police and would suffice. Altho an RPM limit that is much higher than 5-600 rpm over what a NIB silvercan will do, sort of defeats the purpose.
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